Forget About Zito....

[madmike1]

Yet you have put forth zero effort to prove this "fact" to me!

A farm system is worthless if it does not produce talent for its "parent", namely, its major league club. So all your spinning that Wright, Reyes, and Kazmir does NOT prove the farm system is successful is worthless. It is not pure luck that produces these happenings. Where do you think these players learn the skills necesarry to play in the bigs?

WHO CARES if the farm system is "successful" thats not what i was saying. The yankees have produced hall of famers in the past decade but that has NOTHING TO DO with the state of their system's right now.

[Jetsfan80]

The Yankees top 10 list of prospects IN THE MINORS which is what i mean by farm system is just far better then the mets top 10 right now. You can check the players and stats and scouting reports.don't take my word for it.

Of course I won't take your word for it. You haven't shown me a damn good reason to believe you.

[madmike1]

Of course I won't take your word for it. You haven't shown me a damn good reason to believe you.

Thats fine just don't get in arguments about things you don't know anything about.

[Jetsfan80]

Thats fine just don't get in arguments about things you don't know anything about.

That's funny, I was under the impression that you were talking out of your ass. Once again, show me something to prove your point. How is the Yankee farm system SIGNIFICANTLY more successful than the Mets farm system? Or can your credibility drop even lower?

[shawn306]

That's funny, I was under the impression that you were talking out of your ass. Once again, show me something to prove your point. How is the Yankee farm system SIGNIFICANTLY more successful than the Mets farm system? Or can your credibility drop even lower?

Let's see

Jeter

Posada

Pettitte

Wang

Cano

Cabrera

Wily Mo Pena

Halsey

Mike Lowell

I don't think I need to go on. But

Nick Johnson

Soriano

I'm sure there are a few more

[madmike1]

That's funny, I was under the impression that you were talking out of your ass. Once again, show me something to prove your point. How is the Yankee farm system SIGNIFICANTLY more successful than the Mets farm system? Or can your credibility drop even lower?

You obviously don't understand my point. This is NOT an aguement about which system HAS PRODUCED the best ML players (the yankees win that one too by the way) It's about who has the best prospects RIGHT NOW. I'm not going to rail off the names of players you've probably never heard of. IF you want to do some reasearch into the systems to see who has the best one right now by my guest.

[Jetsfan80]

Let's see

Jeter

Posada

Pettitte

Wang

Cano

Cabrera

Wily Mo Pena

Halsey

Mike Lowell

I don't think I need to go on.

His point was that the farm system does not need to produce great major league talent for it to be successful. Which, as you understand, is a retarded argument. Maybe you, a Yankee fan, can explain this ideology to him?

[Jetsfan80]

I'm not going to rail off the names of players you've probably never heard of. IF you want to do some reasearch into the systems to see who has the best one right now by my guest.

When you make a claim, you are the one that should be backing it up. Just like when you point your finger at someone, you must PROVE they are guilty. Understand? Your rationale is "the Yankees have a better farm system, and I don't care what you have to say otherwise." Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

[madmike1]

His point was that the farm system does not need to produce great major league talent for it to be successful. Which, as you understand, is a retarded argument. Maybe you, a Yankee fan, can explain this ideology to him?

NOT TRUE. I never used the word successful. I said the yankees have better PROSPECTS IN THE MINORS RIGHT NOW then the mets do. THATS IT.

[madmike1]

When you make a claim, you are the one that should be backing it up. Just like when you point your finger at someone, you must PROVE they are guilty. Understand? Your rationale is "the Yankees have a better farm system, and I don't care what you have to say otherwise." Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

I can tell you that hughes is better then pelfrey or that jb cox is better then lindstrom or that tabata is gaining fast on millage or that clippard is better then humber but you probably don't know who those guys are.

[124]

Just my opinion, but why are we arguing about players that frankly, nobody knows about. I don't give a **** if a guy hits 30 homeruns in AAA if he comes into the majors and hits 5 and can't play defense and bats .220. Or if a pitcher is 17-8 with a sub 3 ERA in AAA but in the majors finds out he can't just blow by with his fastball anymore and struggles and is back in the minors in 2 months. Lets have a discussion whose minor league system was better in 5 years when all these prospects will either be successful or be total flops.

[Jetsfan80]

Just my opinion, but why are we arguing about players that frankly, nobody knows about. I don't give a **** if a guy hits 30 homeruns in AAA if he comes into the majors and hits 5 and can't play defense and bats .220. Or if a pitcher is 17-8 with a sub 3 ERA in AAA but in the majors finds out he can't just blow by with his fastball anymore and struggles and is back in the minors in 2 months. Lets have a discussion whose minor league system was better in 5 years when all these prospects will either be successful or be total flops.

Exactly. Which is the exact reason why madmike refuses to accept MY argument because he knows David Wright and Jose Reyes are way more talented than any prospect the Yankees have produced in a long time.

What Phillip Humber, Mike Pelfrey and Lastings Millege do in the minors doesn't mean a damn thing if they can't produce in the majors, and the same goes for any Yankee prospect.

[madmike1]

Just my opinion, but why are we arguing about players that frankly, nobody knows about. I don't give a **** if a guy hits 30 homeruns in AAA if he comes into the majors and hits 5 and can't play defense and bats .220. Or if a pitcher is 17-8 with a sub 3 ERA in AAA but in the majors finds out he can't just blow by with his fastball anymore and struggles and is back in the minors in 2 months. Lets have a discussion whose minor league system was better in 5 years when all these prospects will either be successful or be total flops.

Thats a perfectly valid point but i'm a pretty big fan of minor league baseball so i know more about these players then most. Just because the yankee system is better right now dosn't mean they will be better major leagers and i never said it would. All i said was that RIGHT NOW the yankees have better prospects then the mets do.

[madmike1]

Exactly. Which is the exact reason why madmike refuses to accept MY argument because he knows David Wright and Jose Reyes are way more talented than any prospect the Yankees have produced in a long time.

What Phillip Humber, Mike Pelfrey and Lastings Millege do in the minors doesn't mean a damn thing if they can't produce in the majors, and the same goes for any Yankee prospect.

You still don't get my point all i'm talking about is players in the minors RIGHT NOW. If you want to get into who has produced better players in the majors thats a different argument.

[shawn306]

Here is what I can tell you.

I saw Norfolk play Charlotte last week. The best player on the field was not Milledge but a kid named Josh Field for Charlotte who if it wasn't for Crede would be playing 3rd base for the White Sox right now.

Norfolk is 35-55, Columbus who I will see next week is 39-48 so unless both teams have some jewels below triple A neither looks all that great.

[Jetsfan80]

Here is what I can tell you.

I saw Norfolk play Charlotte last week. The best player on the field was not Milledge but a kid named Josh Field for Charlotte who if it wasn't for Crede would be playing 3rd base for the White Sox right now.

Norfolk is 35-55, Columbus who I will see next week is 39-48 so unless both teams have some jewels below triple A neither looks all that great.

The Mets AAA team is definitely not very strong, especially the pitching. That is the main reason why they had to deal with "Lima time"; there weren't many pitchers at the AAA level to help them out. I don't think that that should be put on Minaya and the current regime, because he didn't draft those players who are now in AAA. Still, it may be a reason for concern, but I do believe Minaya's first 2 drafts brought in some very talented players, leading me to believe that AA and single-A are in good shape. But only time will tell if those guys pan out.

[madmike1]

Here is what I can tell you.

I saw Norfolk play Charlotte last week. The best player on the field was not Milledge but a kid named Josh Field for Charlotte who if it wasn't for Crede would be playing 3rd base for the White Sox right now.

Norfolk is 35-55, Columbus who I will see next week is 39-48 so unless both teams have some jewels below triple A neither looks all that great.

Columbus has one prospect all the yankee prospects are at lower levels.

[shutout]

When you make a claim, you are the one that should be backing it up. Just like when you point your finger at someone, you must PROVE they are guilty. Understand? Your rationale is "the Yankees have a better farm system, and I don't care what you have to say otherwise." Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

To be fair,you started all this by making accusations about the yankees and their farm club which you've done nothing to back up.

The Yankees don't have the farm system to make major deals

Excuse me, but just naming Cano, Wang, and Cabrera and assuming that that means the Yankees have a healthy farm system doesn't take in the scope of the situation. How do you truly think the Yankee farm system compares to the rest of baseball?[/QUOTE]

That one in particular seems to be what he's been responding to.

[madmike1]

To be fair,you started all this by making accusations about the yankees and their farm club which you've done nothing to back up.

Thats exactly what they are responding to. Just because the yankees arn't trading them dosn't mean they don't have prospects.

[Jetsfan80]

To be fair,you started all this by making accusations about the yankees and their farm club which you've done nothing to back up.

Right, and my argument is that successful home grown major league talent is the best indicator of a successful farm system. I don't think Cabrera, Cano, and Wang prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Yankee farm system churns out better talented than a Mets system that produced Reyes, Wright, and Kazmir. That was my primary claim.

I do not have a great body of knowledge concerning the current minor league players of the Yankees and Mets, nor do I think we should be judging them until they perform at the Major League level.

[madmike1]

The only basis for your argument is cutting the time frame. If you say who has produced the best players in the past 4 years it's the mets. Past 10 years-ever it's the yankees.

[shawn306]

As Garb as in here quote

We have BINGO !!!!

Now the question becomes will the Mets pony up 12-15 mil a year for Wright and Reyes when they are up for free agency.

[Jetsfan80]

Obviously the Mets will keep Wright and Reyes in Mets uniforms. This is Omar Minaya we're talking about, not Dan Duquette.

And speaking of Minaya, I care a lot more about the last 2 years than the previous 8. The Mets have had some really terrible front office guys before Minaya arrived on the scene. I have full confidence that the Mets present AND future is bright with him around.

[shawn306]

Yeah that and boatful of TV money.

[Jetsfan80]

Yeah that and boatful of TV money.

Says a Yankee fan whose teams spends and makes enough money to fill several Titanics.

[madmike1]

Says a Yankee fan whose teams spends and makes enough money to fill several Titanics.

After signing Wright and Reyes the mets are gonna be right up there with the yankees.

[shawn306]

Add to the fact that they will also be doling out the cash for starting pitching when glavine and Pedro retire.

Give the Mets two years with their new TV network and they will not only be right up their with the Yankees but most likely past them.

Once you start feeding the moster you can't stop. The Mets are in that position now and their payroll will continue to escalate in the next two to three years just like the Yankees did once the YES Network started.

Better get used to it 80. Those complaints you throw at the Yankees for the past two years are gonna be coming back at you in about 2008.

[Barton]

This is a very funny thread.

madmike says the yankees farm system is better and jf80 says that Wright, Reyes and Kazmir are all studs.

They're not even part of the frickin minor league system anymore LOL.

BA doesnt rate the Mets system from players that have been in the league for 3 years lol.

The Yankees have the farm system to go out and get a big name pitcher, but they wont do it anymore. They're back to their ways that built the great 90's team.

And where are Yankee fans claiming their land on Zito, Kazmir and Willis.

Sure we want those players and we'll probably go after Zito when he's a FA, but you want them too. Nobody is saying its a done deal, relax.

[shawn306]

This is a very funny thread.

madmike says the yankees farm system is better and jf80 says that Wright, Reyes and Kazmir are all studs.

They're not even part of the frickin minor league system anymore LOL.

BA doesnt rate the Mets system from players that have been in the league for 3 years lol.

The Yankees have the farm system to go out and get a big name pitcher, but they wont do it anymore. They're back to their ways that built the great 90's team.

And where are Yankee fans claiming their land on Zito, Kazmir and Willis.

Sure we want those players and we'll probably go after Zito when he's a FA, but you want them too. Nobody is saying its a done deal, relax.

What Barton no F'Bombs today ?

[Exit 117]

First of all, Hughes is not better than Pelfrey, and Tabata is nowhere near Milledge. If you're going to compare Tabata to a prospect in the Mets system, compare him to Fernando Martinez, another guy signed last year, or within the past 2, out of some foreign nation at a young age. Saying Tabata is near Milledge is just assinine.

[madmike1]

First of all, Hughes is not better than Pelfrey, and Tabata is nowhere near Milledge. If you're going to compare Tabata to a prospect in the Mets system, compare him to Fernando Martinez, another guy signed last year, or within the past 2, out of some foreign nation at a young age. Saying Tabata is near Milledge is just assinine.

Acctualy any scout will tell you that Hughes is a MUCH more polished prospect and has much better secondary pitches and command then Pelfrey. Better then any other pitching prospect in baseball for that matter.

Tabata is heads and shoulders above martinez and while his age keeps him below millage he's gaining fast.Here is a quote from Jim Callis who HATES the yankees "Tabata was the most impressive position player in the Futures Game. One of the 10-20 best prospects in baseball, I think."

[Exit 117]

Acctualy any scout will tell you that Hughes is a MUCH more polished prospect and has much better secondary pitches and command then Pelfrey. Better then any other pitching prospect in baseball for that matter.

Tabata is heads and shoulders above martinez and while his age keeps him below millage he's gaining fast.

I'm sure you talk to scouts all the time. Right now, Hughes IS the better player, i.e. he is at a higher level. But, as far as POTENTIAL, Pelfrey dominates him.

You can't judge either because they're still both in A ball, but Martinez was expected to be better and missed a lot of time injured. When you convert his stats to the same number of at bats as Tabta's they both edge each other in different categories, so there is no way Tabata is "head and shoulders" above Martinez.

He is in no way "gaining fast" on "Millage," or Milledge, because Milledge is in AAA and has already touched the Majors (and performed decent there). Comparing them is pretty stupid because there is no competition.

[madmike1]

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/07/wtny_midseason_4.php

Wrong again the only thing Pelfrey has on Hughes is about 3 MPH on his fastball. He's not close to as good of a prospect. He not even ON most top 25 lists.

[madmike1]

I'm sure you talk to scouts all the time. Right now, Hughes IS the better player, i.e. he is at a higher level. But, as far as POTENTIAL, Pelfrey dominates him.

You can't judge either because they're still both in A ball, but Martinez was expected to be better and missed a lot of time injured. When you convert his stats to the same number of at bats as Tabta's they both edge each other in different categories, so there is no way Tabata is "head and shoulders" above Martinez.

He is in no way "gaining fast" on "Millage," or Milledge, because Milledge is in AAA and has already touched the Majors (and performed decent there). Comparing them is pretty stupid because there is no competition.

Jim Callis who HATES the yankees calls tabata a top 20 prospect in baseball it's more then pure stats.

Hughes isn't at a higher level then pelfrey get your facts straight.

[Exit 117]

Jim Callis who HATES the yankees calls tabata a top 20 prospect in baseball.

Are you even going to read what I'm typing? In no way did I deny that he was a very good prospect; but he is still in Single A and his first year of professional baseball in the US; he has yet to even hit a major slump to break out of.