Yankee trade Scenario

[AFJF]

IF the Yankees can send a couple of mid level prospects to Toronto in exchange for Shea Hillenbrand (which I don't think would happen, but hey it's a slow day around here) they then turn around and trade Andy Phillips, Scott Proctor, and Ron Villone to Pittsburgh for Mike Gonzalez who takes Villones spot, and have Dotel or Colome replace Proctor.

This way the Pirates get two young, affordable players who have shown the ability to perform at the ML level and in all reality, can probably use proctor in any role they see fit. He can start, set up, or get an audition as a closer.

Phillps can get a chance to beat out Shawn Casey at 1B because the guy has virtually zero power for a 1B and Phillips in the past few weeks has proven himself to be an above average 1B.

which would you prefer?

Proctor

Villone

Phillips

or

Colome/Dotel

Gonzalez

Hillenbrand

Opinions?

[Scott Dierking]

IF the Yankees can send a couple of mid level prospects to Toronto in exchange for Shea Hillenbrand (which I don't think would happen, but hey it's a slow day around here) they then turn around and trade Andy Phillips, Scott Proctor, and Ron Villone to Pittsburgh for Mike Gonzalez who takes Villones spot, and have Dotel or Colome replace Proctor.

This way the Pirates get two young, affordable players who have shown the ability to perform at the ML level and in all reality, can probably use proctor in any role they see fit. He can start, set up, or get an audition as a closer.

Phillps can get a chance to beat out Shawn Casey at 1B because the guy has virtually zero power for a 1B and Phillips in the past few weeks has proven himself to be an above average 1B.

which would you prefer?

Proctor

Villone

Phillips

or

Colome/Dotel

Gonzalez

Hillenbrand

Opinions?

A closer, on the major league level will not come that cheaply.

If I were the Pirates, and were looking to replace Sean Casey, who is a FA after this season, I would try and work a ddeal with Colorado for Ryan Shealey.

Shealey is a stud, and is blocked by Helton at the 1b position. To get Shealey, I don't know what Pitt would have to give up, but I would look at him before Phillips.

[AFJF]

A closer, on the major league level will not come that cheaply.

If I were the Pirates, and were looking to replace Sean Casey, who is a FA after this season, I would try and work a ddeal with Colorado for Ryan Shealey.

Shealey is a stud, and is blocked by Helton at the 1b position. To get Shealey, I don't know what Pitt would have to give up, but I would look at him before Phillips.

Keep in mind though SD, Pittsburgh is looking to move Gonzalez (at least according to some published trade rumors) and Proctor has started in the minors and in spring training. He's still young enough that he can be plugged in to any role so maybe Pittsburgh gets a starting 1B with more pop than Casey and a SP. There's also the option of letting Proctor try to close games out which he has good enough stuff to do, just a matter of finding out if he has the mental toughness.

I don't know that a young 1B with 25 HR potential and a versitile hard throwing pitcher is what I would categorize as "cheap". Now if I had said Cairo, Sean Henn, and Villone for Gonzalez...that would be cheap.

[Scott Dierking]

Shealey is considered a much better prospect than Phillips, that I know. I had heard Pitt trying to move Hernandez more than Gonzalez, but anything is possible.

Gonzalez is not arbitration eligible for a few more years, so it would be hard for me seeing Pitt move him.

yes, he would be a great set-up role in the Yankee scheme.

Keep in mind though SD, Pittsburgh is looking to move Gonzalez (at least according to some published trade rumors) and Proctor has started in the minors and in spring training. He's still young enough that he can be plugged in to any role so maybe Pittsburgh gets a starting 1B with more pop than Casey and a SP. There's also the option of letting Proctor try to close games out which he has good enough stuff to do, just a matter of finding out if he has the mental toughness.

I don't know that a young 1B with 25 HR potential and a versitile hard throwing pitcher is what I would categorize as "cheap". Now if I had said Cairo, Sean Henn, and Villone for Gonzalez...that would be cheap.

[AFJF]

Wow...if the stuff in this article about Hillenbrand are true then forget I mentioned the Yankees trading for him. I'd heard he was a problem but I didn't realize he was this much of a baby.

Chalk-board message the last straw

By BOB ELLIOTT -- Toronto Sun

Shea it ain't so, Jays

Dressing room eerily quiet

Deep thoughts for Gibby

Team Turmoil will be back in action at the Rogers Centre tonight.

Oh yeah, and the New York Yankees will be there, too.

With the Texas Rangers in town last night, the volatility of the Cito Gaston-David Wells mound clash from years past came to mind, with Wells heaving the ball down the left-field line and Gaston confronting Wells in the tunnel.

The Blue Jays last night said goodbye to the Shea Hey Kid -- Shea Hillenbrand -- choosing to designate their designated hitter.

They have 10 days to trade him or release him, which makes him a free agent.

Hillenbrand flew to Los Angeles after last Friday's game as he and his wife were adopting a baby and returned an hour before Tuesday's game. He was not in the lineup last night and blasted management before the game.

"This had nothing to do with him adopting a baby," said Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi, who added that the breakup was due to, "irreconcilable differences."

It had a lot to do with Hillenbrand writing: "This is a sinking ship" on the chalkboard where batting practice times are written.

The team was having a players-only meeting, called by Vernon Wells, when in stormed irate manager John Gibbons.

According to one unnamed Blue Jay: "The manager said: 'You're gone! I'll be gone before you ever play another game in this organization.'

"It was as hot as I've ever seen (Gibbons) and that includes all of his ejections."

Hillenbrand was hitting .301 with 12 homers and 39 RBIs in 81 games. How easy is it to replace that?

"He was a cancer in this clubhouse," another player said. "Shea's day went the way the lineup card went. If he was in the lineup, everything was fine. If he wasn't he'd sulk. Sometimes he wouldn't even come out to hit."

Hillenbrand has a passion for being in the everyday lineup and most managers say there's nothing wrong with that. He made 17 starts at first base, 15 at third base and 43 as the designated hitter.

"I got along with him, but his sense of humour rubbed some people the wrong way," Wells said.

Hillenbrand's sense of humour included ripping the Canadian flag crest off the hat that the Jays wore Canada Day in a 5-2 win over the Philadelphia Phillies, according to a team official. Hillenbrand had been taken out of that game in the seventh inning.

Hillenbrand did have his supporters, such as Wells.

"From an outsider's view, some things he said could be taken the wrong way," Wells said. "Everyone in the clubhouse knew it was Shea being Shea."

By an outsider's view, Wells likely meant down the hall to the manager's office or up three floors to the GM's office.

The Rangers and the Minnesota Twins were interested in acquiring Hillenbrand. But the Jays are no longer dealing from a position of strength when it comes to dealing a player earning $5.8 million US this season.

"Hopefully, we can deal with this and move on," Lyle Overbay said. "We have a chance to do something really good here."

The question asked by baseball people as moves are made at deadline time is the same: Are we better today than we were yesterday? The Jays moved to within 11 days of the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline not as strong as they were a week ago.

"I don't know if we're stronger," Ricciardi said, "but you learn as a little kid that you have to play as part of the team. Even if this hurts us, no one is bigger than the team -- you have to do what is right for the organization."

"I wouldn't say we're a better team now, but I also wouldn't say that we are a worse team," Wells said. "We have guys in here who can step up and play."

On Monday, the Jays were without Troy Glaus (back), Alex Rios (ankle) and Hillenbrand, but still scored 10 runs against Texas. Then they dropped the final two games of the series.

Earlier in the season, the Jays tried to deal Hillenbrand to the Los Angeles Angels for second baseman Adam Kennedy.

The Jays continue to look for set-up help to bridge the gap between their starters and closer B.J. Ryan, as well as a starting shortstop.

And now a DH, as well?

[madmike1]

Gonzalez isn't anything great his WHIP is higher then farnsworth's.

[AFJF]

Gonzalez isn't anything great his WHIP is higher then farnsworth's.

Oh Really? What's his ERA? Same as Farnsworth also? Same numbers against lefties also I presume?

[madmike1]

Oh Really? What's his ERA? Same as Farnsworth also?

ERA is a HORRIBLE stat for middle men dude. They pitch so few innings that one bad games kills their ERA for the season. I'm not saying Farnsworth has been anything great but Gonzalez isn't any better then him... 25 walks in 40 IP. thats UGLY

[AFJF]

ERA is a HORRIBLE stat for middle men dude. They pitch so few innings that one bad games kills their ERA for the season. I'm not saying Farnsworth has been anything great but Gonzalez isn't any better then him...

Why would you compare him to Farnsworth to begin with? I said to include Villone in the trade which is the player who's place he would be taking.

[madmike1]

By the way we have a better version of Mike Gonzalez on the yankees. His name is Ron Villone.

[madmike1]

Why would you compare him to Farnsworth to begin with? I said to include Villone in the trade which is the player who's place he would be taking.

Villone is BETTER then him. That trade would be moronic.

[AFJF]

By the way we have a better version of Mike Gonzalez on the yankees. His name is Ron Villone.

You got me there, Villone is younger, and has shown he can step in and be a closer if need be...my bad

[madmike1]

You got me there, Villone is younger, and has shown he can step in and be a closer if need be...my bad

The yankees don't need a closer and with Gonzalez's numbers if they need him to close games they are in BIG trouble. Villone is better them him in EVERY stat. ERA WHIP AVG AVGvsLEFTY's and on and on.

[AFJF]

Villone is BETTER then him. That trade would be moronic.

Right, because a 36 year old with a 4.63 liftime ERA is worth keeping around instead of a 28 year old who has shown he can be a closer at the ML level. Got me again.

[AFJF]

The yankees don't need a closer and with Gonzalez's numbers if they need him to close games they are in BIG trouble. Villone is better them him in EVERY stat. ERA WHIP AVG AVGvsLEFTY's and on and on.

yeah, any team that has to call on a 28 year old who's 13-13 in save situations in clearly in dire straits.

[madmike1]

Right, because a 36 year old with a 4.63 liftime ERA is worth keeping around instead of a 28 year old who has shown he can be a closer at the ML level. Got me again.

WHO CARES that he can close that means nothing to the yankees. They are getting Dotel back and he can close too. Villone is better then Gonzalez in EVERY STAT. Anyone who walks 25 guys in 40 innings is a bad closer.

[AFJF]

WHO CARES that he can close that means nothing to the yankees. They are getting Dotel back and he can close too. Villone is better then Gonzalez in EVERY STAT.

Of course MadKirkjian, Dotel is a guy you want to rely on because every time they've had to rebuild his arm it's gone well.

[AFJF]

WHO CARES that he can close that means nothing to the yankees. They are getting Dotel back and he can close too. Villone is better then Gonzalez in EVERY STAT. Anyone who walks 25 guys in 40 innings is a bad closer.

It's than...better than

[madmike1]

Of course MadKirkjian, Dotel is a guy you want to rely on because every time they've had to rebuild his arm it's gone well.

If the yankees need to rely on Gonzalez OR Dotel to close they are in BIG BIG trouble.

[madmike1]

It's than...better than

NICE i make you look stupid with stats and you point out a typo. Good arguemnt.

[AFJF]

If the yankees need to rely on Gonzalez OR Dotel to close they are in BIG BIG trouble.

Okay, stop there and explain to me how any team is in big troulbe if they're relying on a closer who throws in the mid 90s and has not blown a single save all season. I don't care about WHIP, or VORP, or BISS, just tell me how a team is in trouble in that situation.

[AFJF]

NICE i make you look stupid with stats and you point out a typo. Good arguemnt.

Boy don't I look like a fool suggesting a young pitcher with a 100% save percentage as an insurance policy for our closer. Doesn't get much dumber than that.

[madmike1]

Okay, stop there and explain to me how any team is in big troulbe if they're relying on a closer who throws in the mid 90s and has not blown a single save all season. I don't care about WHIP, or VORP, or BISS, just tell me how a team is in trouble in that situation.

How do you know how many of those saves were 3 runs saves? how many were against the bottom of the lineup? Save% means nothing. Any RP who has 25 walks in 40 innings is NOT a good closer. Villone beats him in EVERY STAT and that trade would make the yankee bullpen worse not better.

[AFJF]

How do you know how many of those saves were 3 runs saves? how many were against the bottom of the lineup? Save% means nothing. Any RP who has 25 walks in 40 innings is NOT a good closer. Villone beats him in EVERY STAT and that trade would make the yankee bullpen worse not better.

Dude, there you go again using BISS as your main argument. I don't care about BISS. I care about the bottom line. The man saves games when called upon to do so and is 28 years old. Ron Villone is having a nice season but he's 36 and having a career year. The guys lifetime ERA is over 4.5 for god sakes.

[AFJF]

Okay so let me get this straight...stolen bases mean nothing, ERA for middle relievers means nothing, and a 100% save percentage means nothing. The only stat you rely on is VORP and BISS.

[madmike1]

Dude, there you go again using BISS as your main argument. I don't care about BISS. I care about the bottom line. The man saves games when called upon to do so and is 28 years old. Ron Villone is having a nice season but he's 36 and having a career year. The guys lifetime ERA is over 4.5 for god sakes.

Gonzalez walks WAY too many guys since 04 to ever be a consistant closer. AFter 04 his k/bb when from over 9 to over 1.

[AFJF]

Gonzalez walks WAY too many guys since 04 to ever be a consistant closer.

Okay, so he can't be a consistent closer. You're basing that on opinion or on fact? The guy has a 2.47 lifetime ERA which according to you can be ruined with one bad outing per season. I'm assuming he has one bad outing per season so in all reality he's probably more of a 1.85 ERA lifetime and 28 years old. You'd rather have a 36 year old with a 4.63 liftime ERA. Does that sound about right?

[madmike1]

Okay, so he can't be a consistent closer. You're basing that on opinion or on fact? The guy has a 2.47 lifetime ERA which according to you can be ruined with one bad outing per season. I'm assuming he has one bad outing per season so in all reality he's probably more of a 1.85 ERA lifetime and 28 years old. You'd rather have a 36 year old with a 4.63 liftime ERA. Does that sound about right?

This isn't about getting a future closer. THIS YEAR villone is better. The yankees will be able to sign bullpen guys in the offseason who are better then Gonzalez without giving up anything not to mention they have JB Cox and TJ Beam coming.

[AFJF]

This isn't about getting a future closer. THIS YEAR villone is better. The yankees will be able to sign bullpen guys in the offseason who are better then Gonzalez without giving up anything not to mention they have JB Cox and TJ Beam coming.

If you're going to debate, please read carefully what is being said. Show me where I said Gonzalez would be our future closer.

I'll take a 28 year old flamethrower with a sub 2.50 lifetime ERA over a 36 year old with a 4.63 ERA having a career year.

[madmike1]

If you're going to debate, please read carefully what is being said. Show me where I said Gonzalez would be our future closer.

I'll take a 28 year old flamethrower with a sub 2.50 lifetime ERA over a 36 year old with a 4.63 ERA having a career year.

As i've said Gonzalez's MASSIVE drop in k/bb in very troublesome and i wouldn't trade for him with the idea of having him for awhile. There will be better options in the future in the FA market and the yankee's farm system.

[AFJF]

As i've said Gonzalez's MASSIVE drop in k/bb in very troublesome and i wouldn't trade for him with the idea of having him for awhile. There will be better options in the future in the FA market and the yankee's farm system.

Just a difference of opinion here. I'll take the young proven player over the "what could be" player more times than not. Your blue chip Phillip Hughes types are the exception but if I have to choose between TJ Beam and Mike Gonzalez, I'm taking Mike Gonzalez. We can agree to disagree here, and I'm not saying I dont like or am not happy with Villone. I like the opportunity to bring in a guy who can contribute now and for many years to come.

[madmike1]

Just a difference of opinion here. I'll take the young proven player over the "what could be" player more times than not. Your blue chip Phillip Hughes types are the exception but if I have to choose between TJ Beam and Mike Gonzalez, I'm taking Mike Gonzalez. We can agree to disagree here, and I'm not saying I dont like or am not happy with Villone. I like the opportunity to bring in a guy who can contribute now and for many years to come. Again, we can agree to disagree.

Neither Villone or Gonzalez should be in the yankees' long term bullpen plans and this year villone is better in a MUCH better league. thats why i don't make the tade.

[Sharrow]

Gonzalez > Villone. If this wasn't true, the Pirates wouldn't have ditched him (just like the other 10 teams he's been on have/will) in 02 in favor of Gonzo. He's only been in the league for 4 years, when he shores up his walks, he's going to be very good. Look at last night, he got into trouble in the 9th and gave up a run. Then he stuck out the next two batters with the bases juiced. No way we should make that deal, thanks but no thanks. I don't care about stats. You can say Villone is beating him in every stat this year in a non-closer role. That doesn't mean anything to me. Gonzo gets the job done consistantly and this year is a fluke for Villone. Ditch him while he's worth something.

[GimmeShelter]

You got me there, Villone is younger, and has shown he can step in and be a closer if need be...my bad

[Sharrow]

16 for 16.