Yankee trade Scenario

[Thor99]

What were you saying about Dotel coming back?

Notes: Another setback for Dotel

Reliever reports soreness following latest rehab outing

By Mark Feinsand / MLB.com

TORONTO -- Just when it looked like Octavio Dotel was ready to return from the disabled list and give the Yankees' bullpen a boost, the right-hander suffered another setback on Thursday afternoon, clouding his timetable.

Dotel pitched a scoreless inning for Class A Staten Island, allowing two hits while striking out one against Williamsport. But after the outing, Dotel told special pitching instructor Rich Monteleone that he had what Joe Torre described as "soreness or tenderness" in his right arm.

"He didn't feel like his arm had a lot of pop today," Torre said. "He didn't throw a couple of pitches and say, 'I can't do this.' He pitched his inning, so in my mind, it's nothing more than that he's not ready yet."

General manager Brian Cashman said that Dotel's latest problem is located in the same spot behind his surgically repaired elbow as his last setback, which turned out to be tendinitis. Dotel, who will visit team physician Dr. Stuart Hershon on Friday, had his rehab assignment shut down from June 20 to July 15 when that first problem cropped up.

"We were close enough to get excited, no question," Torre said. "When you go back and think about the type of surgery it was, that's why you're always cautious about how quickly you rehab and bring people along. I know he has to be frustrated by it. We certainly feel for him."

Dotel underwent Tommy John elbow reconstruction surgery last June, and the Yankees signed him this winter to a one-year, $2 million contract with the expectations that he would join them sometime in late-June or early-July.

The Yankees were hoping to add Dotel to the mix of late-inning relievers, joining Scott Proctor, Kyle Farnsworth and Ron Villone.

"We were counting on him to show up here on Sunday," Torre said. "Even then, we weren't going to use him in the eighth inning of a close game; but at least it would have been progress. If things went well, he'd eventually wind up in that role. It wasn't to be."

[madmike1]

Obviously isn't good but with proctor and Farnsworth pitching better lately the biggest hole for the yankees is still in the lineup.

[AFJF]

16 for 16.

C'mon man, havent you figured it out yet? Stats mean nothing in baseball. What you have to look at is the fans perception of a particular player and not everybody thinks the guy is good so thats all you need to know. It's called the PII (perception indicator index) combined with BISS (Because I Say So) and Gonzalez does not fare well in either catagory.

[AFJF]

What were you saying about Dotel coming back?

I say give Colome a look before the trade deadline which is why I was naming the two together. You cant count on Dotel 100% but Colome is another hard throwing righty who had a very stellar season a couple of years ago. Definitely can't look at Dotel as a guy who will be there for you though.

[madmike1]

C'mon man, havent you figured it out yet? Stats mean nothing in baseball. What you have to look at is the fans perception of a particular player and not everybody thinks the guy is good so thats all you need to know. It's called the PII (perception indicator index) combined with BISS (Because I Say So) and Gonzalez does not fare well in either catagory.

Stats mean EVERYTHING. When a RP's k/bb goes from 9 to 1 in one year and their WHIP is around 1.5 thats a MAJOR problem. The WORST thing a RP can do is walk people. that tells alot more about that pitcher then the bad save stat with which a 3 run save counts the same as a 2 inning 1 run save.

[mbn007]

I like Gonzalez. Always have. Trading Villone and replacing him with Mike would be a good move, IMO. However, this year, Villone is having a career year, and the Yankees will probably ride it out as long as they can.

[Sharrow]

Ron Villone for Mike Gonzalez = Never going to happen.

Why would the pirates make this deal, if Villone wasn't a lefty, you'd never have heard of him. The pirates already have enough lefty arms in the pen, including Gonzo. He's 8 years younger and a better pitcher. This is his 3rd full season and his first as a closer, and he hasn't blown a save, he's only going to get better. Villone has never shown he can close out games. So what if Gonzo has 26 walks in 41.2 innings, Villone has 24 in 46.1 in a career year.

Even if he gets into trouble a lot, when it really counts, so far he's one of the most reliable closers in the game and its his first season as closer. You want stats, or do you want results? 16/16

If they can afford to give up a lefty arm, this is the perfect time for the yanks to deal Villone. Hmm, I have an idea. You guys trade off Villone, then we'll trade you Kip Wells, Craig Wilson, and Salomon Torres for Hughes and Melky. You can even have Jody Gerut, lol.

[AFJF]

Ron Villone for Mike Gonzalez = Never going to happen.

Why would the pirates make this deal, if Villone wasn't a lefty, you'd never have heard of him. The pirates already have enough lefty arms in the pen, including Gonzo. He's 8 years younger and a better pitcher. This is his 3rd full season and his first as a closer, and he hasn't blown a save, he's only going to get better. Villone has never shown he can close out games. So what if Gonzo has 26 walks in 41.2 innings, Villone has 24 in 46.1 in a career year.

Even if he gets into trouble a lot, when it really counts, so far he's one of the most reliable closers in the game and its his first season as closer. You want stats, or do you want results? 16/16

If they can afford to give up a lefty arm, this is the perfect time for the yanks to deal Villone. Hmm, I have an idea. You guys trade off Villone, then we'll trade you Kip Wells, Craig Wilson, and Salomon Torres for Hughes and Melky. You can even have Jody Gerut, lol.

Who said Villone for Gonzalez? I certainly didn't. I said Villone, Proctor, and Phillips for Gonzalez. Big differece. Hell, Pittsburgh might be more willing to do the deal if Villone was not part of it.

[Sharrow]

I said Villone, Proctor, and Phillips for Gonzalez. Big differece. Hell, Pittsburgh might be more willing to do the deal if Villone was not part of it.

Lol, maybe. But you can't really put anything past the Pirates FO.

[MiguelBormand]

Did somebody say Villone for Gonzalez?

jesus christ...

[madmike1]

Who said Villone for Gonzalez? I certainly didn't. I said Villone, Proctor, and Phillips for Gonzalez. Big differece. Hell, Pittsburgh might be more willing to do the deal if Villone was not part of it.

Oh so trade 2 RP's who both are having good years + a decent 1B for a closer with a 1.50 WHIP and 26 walks in 40 innings LOL

[AFJF]

Oh so trade 2 RP's who both are having good years + a decent 1B for a closer with a 1.50 WHIP and 26 walks in 40 innings LOL

Why am I not surprised that you dont read the posts you're commenting on? My initial post said that this is a deal the Yankees should consider only if they could get Shea Hillenbrand who is better than Andy Phillips (in baseball world, haven't looked at the MadMike world numbers yet but those dont matter to baseball fans) and I'm not going to explain to you again that Gonzalez is a better option than Villone. Worst case scenairo is that Villone and Gonzalez are equal in all except age, and ability to close. Look at what most of the knowledgable posters on this thread have said and most have said that Gonzalez is a better option than Villone who is having a career year vs. a 28 year old who is 16 for 16 in save situations. Now while I realize that you think those saves came with a 24 run lead, a bunch of pitchers pinch hitting, and a generous official scorer I would tend to disagree.

I also commented that Dotel or Colome could step in for Proctor. I didnt realize you were having this discussion without reading what we were talking about.

[AFJF]

Did somebody say Villone for Gonzalez?

jesus christ...

No...nobody said that

[Sharrow]

Oh so trade 2 RP's who both are having good years + a decent 1B for a closer with a 1.50 WHIP and 26 walks in 40 innings LOL

Decent? Andy Phillips has a career OPS under .700, he sucks! lol

And I'm telling you, best get rid of Villone now, cause its a fluke.

[madmike1]

Decent? Andy Phillips has a career OPS under .700, he sucks! lol

And I'm telling you, best get rid of Villone now, cause its a fluke.

Even if villone IS a fluke for this year i'd rather have him during his fluke year then comitting to another set up man who walks WAY too many hitters when Scot Shields is a FA this offseason. I never said phillips was a good hitter. He's not. But he's a good defensive 1B.

[AFJF]

Decent? Andy Phillips has a career OPS under .700, he sucks! lol

And I'm telling you, best get rid of Villone now, cause its a fluke.

Villone is having a career year, not doubt about it. His career ERA is 4.63 and who knows how long he keeps it up this year. I like the idea of a team adding younger players with room to get better over a career journeyman in the midst of the best baseball he's ever played. Villone isn't going to get any better. Gonzalez on the other hand.

Yeah, and whats up with Andy Phillips' OPS? Man, I don't even want to look at what his VORP is:rolleyes:

[madmike1]

Villone is having a career year, not doubt about it. His career ERA is 4.63 and who knows how long he keeps it up this year. I like the idea of a team adding younger players with room to get better over a career journeyman in the midst of the best baseball he's ever played. Villone isn't going to get any better. Gonzalez on the other hand.

Yeah, and whats up with Andy Phillips' OPS? Man, I don't even want to look at what his VORP is:rolleyes:

Read my last post.

[Sharrow]

Villone is having a career year, not doubt about it. His career ERA is 4.63 and who knows how long he keeps it up this year. I like the idea of a team adding younger players with room to get better over a career journeyman in the midst of the best baseball he's ever played. Villone isn't going to get any better. Gonzalez on the other hand.

Yeah, and whats up with Andy Phillips' OPS? Man, I don't even want to look at what his VORP is:rolleyes:

I bet his VORP is ****ing terrible! And like I said, Gonzo doesn't walk that many more hitters than Villone. 24 in 46.1 vs 26 in 41.2

That being said, I don't know much about Scott Proctor other than he's blown 5 saves for you guys this season. Maybe if he was a lefty, he'd be almost as valuable as Gonzo.

[madmike1]

I bet his VORP is ****ing terrible! And like I said, Gonzo doesn't walk that many more hitters than Villone. 24 in 46.1 vs 26 in 41.2

That being said, I don't know much about Scott Proctor other than he's blown 5 saves for you guys this season. Maybe if he was a lefty, he'd be almost as valuable as Gonzo.

Villone is better in every stat this year. As far as proctor goes you don't give up on guys with his type of arm easily.

[Sharrow]

Villone is better in every stat this year. As far as proctor goes you don't give up on guys with his type of arm easily.

Exactly, this year. It all depends on how long you expect it to last. The Pirates certainly don't need to give up on their closer who has done a fine job, actually a perfect job (results-wise), for an aging RP who isn't really as good as he is pitching, a "decent defensive 1B", and a guy who might be Gonzo's equal if he were a lefty and could close out games with anything even close to a 100% success rate.

[madmike1]

Exactly, this year. It all depends on how long you expect it to last. The Pirates certainly don't need to give up on their closer who has done a fine job, actually a perfect job (results-wise), for an aging RP who isn't really as good as he is pitching, a "decent defensive 1B", and a guy who might be Gonzo's equal if he were a lefty and could close out games with anything even close to a 100% success rate.

I hope the pirates wouldn't do it because the yankees wouldn't either.

[AFJF]

Exactly, this year. It all depends on how long you expect it to last. The Pirates certainly don't need to give up on their closer who has done a fine job, actually a perfect job (results-wise), for an aging RP who isn't really as good as he is pitching, a "decent defensive 1B", and a guy who might be Gonzo's equal if he were a lefty and could close out games with anything even close to a 100% success rate.

Actually Andy Phillips' power numbers project pretty well over a full season when you consider he's a righty in Yankee Stadium and could realistically develop in to a 25-30 HR guy for Pittsburgh. And for anybody who's been watching the Yankees regulary, you'd see that Phillips is a well above average 1B. I honestly thought before the season that he'd be a liability over there but not much worse than Giambi but he has proven me wrong, he's not gold glove caliber, but he's damn good. Thats why I think it would be a good deal for the Pirates. They get Proctor who can start or pitch out of the 'pen and a very good fielding 1B with power potential for a price they can afford.

[madmike1]

Actually Andy Phillips' power numbers project pretty well over a full season when you consider he's a righty in Yankee Stadium and could realistically develop in to a 25-30 HR guy for Pittsburgh. And for anybody who's been watching the Yankees regulary, you'd see that Phillips is a well above average 1B. I honestly thought before the season that he'd be a liability over there but not much worse than Giambi but he has proven me wrong, he's not gold glove caliber, but he's damn good. Thats why I think it would be a good deal for the Pirates. They get Proctor who can start or pitch out of the 'pen and a very good fielding 1B with power potential for a price they can afford.

Thats also why it's a horrible deal for the yankees. They can just go out and sign Scot Shields (the best set up man in the sport) in the offseason without giving up anybody.

[AFJF]

Thats also why it's a horrible deal for the yankees. They can just go out and sign Scot Shields (the best set up man in the sport) in the offseason without giving up anybody.

Excellent point, why try to make a couple of deals to get better this year, when we can just keep spending like crazy every off-season so we can over pay for every guy that comes along and keep that payroll climbing. 300 million here we come...woo hooo

[madmike1]

Excellent point, why try to make a couple of deals to get better this year, when we can just keep spending like crazy every off-season so we can over pay for every guy that comes along and keep that payroll climbing. 300 million here we come...woo hooo

I could care less what the yankee payroll is. they should be using their finantial advantages. They also have alot of money coming off the top this year.

[Sharrow]

I was going to wait a little longer to bring this up, but Gonzo just went on the DL for a couple weeks so I'll do it now.

Ron Villone since this thread: 27K/17BB, 5.33 ERA, 1.59 WHIP

Mike Gonzalez since this thread: 19K/5BB, 1.46 ERA, .89 WHIP

Guess its not a fluke year for Villone afterall. But stats are everything! Forget about expectations and potential, not to mention success (Gonzo also converted 8 of 8 save opportunities since this thread, 24 for 24 on the year, 27/27 including last year). Ron's still got the better BISS though, which means the Yanks would rather have him than Gonzo I guess?

[AFJF]

I was going to wait a little longer to bring this up, but Gonzo just went on the DL for a couple weeks so I'll do it now.

Ron Villone since this thread: 27K/17BB, 5.33 ERA, 1.59 WHIP

Mike Gonzalez since this thread: 19K/5BB, 1.46 ERA, .89 WHIP

Guess its not a fluke year for Villone afterall. But stats are everything! Forget about expectations and potential, not to mention success (Gonzo also converted 8 of 8 save opportunities since this thread, 24 for 24 on the year, 27/27 including last year). Ron's still got the better BISS though, which means the Yanks would rather have him than Gonzo I guess?

Some Yankee fans might prefer Villone. I've liked Gonzo for a couple of seasons now and would love for the Yankees to have grabbed him in a deal. Hey, you know who has a pretty good WHIP this season....Keith Foulke. Thats right. He's got a nice little 1.25 WHIP compared to Villones 1.39 and Gonzos 1.35 so according to some fans, Foulke and his 5.63 ERA would be great because he rarely walks anybody before he gives up a few singles and a homer.

[Sharrow]

Gonzo only gave up 1 homer all year.

[mbn007]

Gonzo only gave up 1 homer all year.

His point is that you can't look at a stat or 2 to judge pitchers. you really have to see them. For the most part, Villone has been excellent for the Yankees, all season long.

[#27TheDominator]

His point is that you can't look at a stat or 2 to judge pitchers. you really have to see them. For the most part, Villone has been excellent for the Yankees, all season long.

Proctor too, but there are morons calling for his head after he blew the save. Curse him quick and then move on, we need him down the stretch.

[Sharrow]

His point is that you can't look at a stat or 2 to judge pitchers.

I know, I just wanted to praise Gonzo a little more since they're probably going to shut him down for the rest of the year. I'm not saying Villone or Proctor haven't been good for you this year, just that it was dumb for some people to think that Gonzo wouldn't be a better option.

[#27TheDominator]

I know, I just wanted to praise Gonzo a little more since they're probably going to shut him down for the rest of the year. I'm not saying Villone or Proctor haven't been good for you this year, just that it was dumb for some people to think that Gonzo wouldn't be a better option.

I don't know much about Gonzalez, but when you have a guy that is doing well it's not always smart to move him for a "better option." Sometimes the change of scenery screws guys up. When a guy like Proctor is straightened out he can be a monster and plenty of good pitchers come here and crap out.