Since Mariano is #1, who's the second best closer ever?

[Blackout]

Eckersley? Billy Wagner? Hoyt Wilhelm? Lee Smith? Gossage? Trevor "Master of the 1/3 inning save" Hoffman? Sutter? etc etc

discuss.

[124]

You put Billy freakin' Wagner into this discussion?

[Blackout]

he's had one hell of a career and still has gas left

and should finish quite high on the career saves list baring injury

[Maxman]

Eck

[PFSIKH]

I will save Yank fans the effort.

Calvin Schiraldi.

[Blackout]

I will save Yank fans the effort.

Calvin Schiraldi.

21 career saves and an ERA+ thats 10 points BELOW league average

yep, gotta be him.

[Elon]

I admit I am biased, but I loved Gossage.

Otherwise, Eck or Sutter.

[AFJF]

Eck

[TaborJet]

Papelbon! C,mon, guys! He is the second coming of Christ, or haven't you heard?

[PFSIKH]

Papelbon! C,mon, guys! He is the second coming of Christ, or haven't you heard?

I already filled the wise quota for this thread.

[Jetfanmack]

Wilhelm is the 2nd best reliever of all-time. No question.

[mbn007]

I will save Yank fans the effort.

Calvin Schiraldi.

Very good.

[mbn007]

Dennis Eckersley, and it's not even close. The man was amazing, and never walked anyone.

Goose was up there, as was Sutter and Fingers. After these 3 and Mo, there is a big dropoff for the next level.

So the top level is Mo.

Next comes Eck.

The 3rd level is Goose, Sutter and Fingers.

Then there's all the rest.

[kloogy]

Byung-Hyun Kim

[Blackout]

Dennis Eckersley, and it's not even close. The man was amazing, and never walked anyone.

Goose was up there, as was Sutter and Fingers. After these 3 and Mo, there is a big dropoff for the next level.

So the top level is Mo.

Next comes Eck.

The 3rd level is Goose, Sutter and Fingers.

Then there's all the rest.

i think you're forgetting Hoyt Wilhelm

[Scott Dierking]

To compare a Rollie Fingers or a Goose Gossage with a Mariano Rivera is an utterly fruitless and impossible task.

The modern save is a totally different animal that has taken form in teh last 20 years or less.

there is no comparison.

The expectations of a "closer" from 25 years ago to today are totally differnt. As are the way stats are accumulated.

if you put Mariano Rivera in teh situations of closers in say, 1976, his numbers would look very different.

Would he be ineffective? Of course not. But the numbers would not be as overpowering as they are.

[Maxman]

To compare a Rollie Fingers or a Goose Gossage with a Mariano Rivera is an utterly fruitless and impossible task.

The modern save is a totally different animal that has taken form in teh last 20 years or less.

there is no comparison.

The expectations of a "closer" from 25 years ago to today are totally differnt. As are the way stats are accumulated.

if you put Mariano Rivera in teh situations of closers in say, 1976, his numbers would look very different.

Would he be ineffective? Of course not. But the numbers would not be as overpowering as they are.

Bad example but I do get your point. The "old" closers were often called upon to pitch when the outs counted the most. Whether that be the 7th 8th or 9th.

Eck is a better example because he was a one inning pitcher. But when you talk about Mariano he has been used more in the traditional form than anybody else out there right now.

Need big outs in the 8th? Bring him in. That is what makes Mo the best. He kind of fits in to both generations.

[The Gun Of Bavaria]

Todd Jones, case closed.

[Scott Dierking]

Bad example but I do get your point. The "old" closers were often called upon to pitch when the outs counted the most. Whether that be the 7th 8th or 9th.

Eck is a better example because he was a one inning pitcher. But when you talk about Mariano he has been used more in the traditional form than anybody else out there right now.

Need big outs in the 8th? Bring him in. That is what makes Mo the best. He kind of fits in to both generations.

Max, those were 3 inning 2 inning saves at times.

Complete games were also much more in vogue in those days, and if a pitcher had a 3 run lead, he was expected to finish the game, rather than wheel out the golf cart with a cap on top of it , swing open the gate and allow a cheesy stat called the save to take place. There were just not as many cheap, stat compiling saves in that era as there are today. Relievers also were required to piotch many more inning.

Left off this list was also Dan Quisenberry, who was awesome for a stretch with KC.

If you want to call Mariano the best post season closer of all time, I could not disagree.

Except for that night that he effectively ended the last Yankee dynasty.

I also find it hilarious that people want to name Hoyt Wilhelm. Who here saw Hoyt Wilhelm pitch?

[mbn007]

Max, those were 3 inning 2 inning saves at times.

Complete games were also much more in vogue in those days, and if a pitcher had a 3 run lead, he was expected to finish the game, rather than wheel out the golf cart with a cap on top of it , swing open the gate and allow a cheesy stat called the save to take place. There were just not as many cheap, stat compiling saves in that era as there are today. Relievers also were required to piotch many more inning.

Left off this list was also Dan Quisenberry, who was awesome for a stretch with KC.

If you want to call Mariano the best post season closer of all time, I could not disagree.

Except for that night that he effectively ended the last Yankee dynasty.

I also find it hilarious that people want to name Hoyt Wilhelm. Who here saw Hoyt Wilhelm pitch?

Mo has pitched 2 inning saves many times. Actually, too many times for my comfort, but he has only a limited number of multiple inning appearances this season, so far.

He also went 3 innings in 2003, Game 7, ALCS. Folks forget about that. Mo can handle any closer situation, a rarity in today's game. He fits in as the best ever, over whatever time-frame you care to bring up.

[mbn007]

i think you're forgetting Hoyt Wilhelm

No, I didn't.

Hoyt is an example of a guy who was very good. But the best ever, not at all. He is in the Jeff Reardon, Dan Quiesenbery category. A few levels below the top guys.

[shawn306]

Todd Jones, case closed.

Even over Matt Anderson ?

[Scott Dierking]

Mo has pitched 2 inning saves many times. Actually, too many times for my comfort, but he has only a limited number of multiple inning appearances this season, so far.

He also went 3 innings in 2003, Game 7, ALCS. Folks forget about that. Mo can handle any closer situation, a rarity in today's game. He fits in as the best ever, over whatever time-frame you care to bring up.

MBN- Rollie Fingers, over 11 years that were considered his "best closing years" '72-'82 : 1203 Innings pitched

Mariano Rivera over the last 11 years : 740 IP

The comparisons and to say that the jobs that they performed and resulting stats are comparable is not a fair statement.

A reliever was a totally differnt animal.

[Blackout]

Mo's IP is a product of the times he plays in. ALL closers are expected to only pitch one inning saves.

Do they get 2 inning saves? yes, sometimes they will. but no manager choses to put the closer in for 2 innings anymore.

[Scott Dierking]

Mo's IP is a product of the times he plays in. ALL closers are expected to only pitch one inning saves.

Do they get 2 inning saves? yes, sometimes they will. but no manager choses to put the closer in for 2 innings anymore.

That is kinda the point I was making.

How do you compare 2 totally different eras, when the expectations were so dramatically differennt?

And that being so-How can someone then be crowned "best ever". The criteria are totally different.

[mbn007]

MBN- Rollie Fingers, over 11 years that were considered his "best closing years" '72-'82 : 1203 Innings pitched

Mariano Rivera over the last 11 years : 740 IP

The comparisons and to say that the jobs that they performed and resulting stats are comparable is not a fair statement.

A reliever was a totally differnt animal.

So Babe Ruth's HR totals are different then Hank Aarons? Because he played in a different era? So his were more meaningful?

Can't let it work that way. Each has to perform in his era, as best as he can, and Mo in his era has shown that he is the best ever.

[Scott Dierking]

and Mo in his era has shown that he is the best ever.

That is a contradiction in terms.

[Scott Dierking]

So Babe Ruth's HR totals are different then Hank Aarons? Because he played in a different era? So his were more meaningful?

Can't let it work that way. Each has to perform in his era, as best as he can, and Mo in his era has shown that he is the best ever.

Did Hank Aaron get almost twice as many at bats in a game as Babe Ruth? If so, how did that reflect performance?

If you want, I can go into a diatribe of how pitching more innings in a set number of games will affect stats and performance. I thought that was a given, but we can get into it.

[Blackout]

That is kinda the point I was making.

How do you compare 2 totally different eras, when the expectations were so dramatically differennt?

And that being so-How can someone then be crowned "best ever". The criteria are totally different.

Because Mariano has been the most effective and dominant in his era despite the higher levels of offense?

[Scott Dierking]

Because Mariano has been the most effective and dominant in his era despite the higher levels of offense?

You guys are now changing the criteria.

First you said "ever" and now you are saying "era".

I can agree that he is the best of this era, which I will place at 20 years. 20 years does not equal "ever".

I am saying that over 20 years ago, the closer role was thought of totally differnt and teh responsibilities and "stat compiling" was radically thought of differently.

Which are you areguing, because you are intermixing terms that are intrinsic to the discussion.

Rollie Fingers and Mariano Rivera are not from teh same era, particularly when you talk closers and their resposnibilities.

[mbn007]

You guys are now changing the criteria.

First you said "ever" and now you are saying "era".

I can agree that he is the best of this era, which I will place at 20 years. 20 years does not equal "ever".

I am saying that over 20 years ago, the closer role was thought of totally differnt and teh responsibilities and "stat compiling" was radically thought of differently.

Which are you areguing, because you are intermixing terms that are intrinsic to the discussion.

Rollie Fingers and Mariano Rivera are not from teh same era, particularly when you talk closers and their resposnibilities.

So what you are saying is that we can never compare any player with another from some 20 years earlier or later.

[shawn306]

The game is alot different then it was in the 70's

We all know that guys like Gossage, Fingers, Lyle and the such would go 2 sometimes 3 innings to get a save. It all depended on the situation.

Relievers back then were basically guys were not successful as starters but could come in and give you 2-3 innings of relief.

The only reason I would put Mariano up there as the greatest in this.

The guy has never EVER had a bad season. Not one in 12 seasons. That is mind boggling. Guys like Fingers, or a Gossage may have had a year or two where they were not dominant. Now that could be because of the total amount of innings they worked or amount of games they pitched but Mo has never even had an off year. (Unless you consider 2000 or 2002 where his ERA was in the 2.70 range)

Basically you are arguing apples and oranges though. Two different eras, different types of relivers.

[Sharrow]

The game is alot different then it was in the 70's

We all know that guys like Gossage, Fingers, Lyle and the such would go 2 sometimes 3 innings to get a save. It all depended on the situation.

Relievers back then were basically guys were not successful as starters but could come in and give you 2-3 innings of relief.

The only reason I would put Mariano up there as the greatest in this.

The guy has never EVER had a bad season. Not one in 12 seasons. That is mind boggling. Guys like Fingers, or a Gossage may have had a year or two where they were not dominant. Now that could be because of the total amount of innings they worked or amount of games they pitched but Mo has never even had an off year. (Unless you consider 2000 or 2002 where his ERA was in the 2.70 range)

Basically you are arguing apples and oranges though. Two different eras, different types of relivers.

Plus he pretty much does it with 1 pitch. Which is also mind boggling.

[Maxman]

Max, those were 3 inning 2 inning saves at times.

Complete games were also much more in vogue in those days, and if a pitcher had a 3 run lead, he was expected to finish the game, rather than wheel out the golf cart with a cap on top of it , swing open the gate and allow a cheesy stat called the save to take place. There were just not as many cheap, stat compiling saves in that era as there are today. Relievers also were required to piotch many more inning.

Left off this list was also Dan Quisenberry, who was awesome for a stretch with KC.

If you want to call Mariano the best post season closer of all time, I could not disagree.

Except for that night that he effectively ended the last Yankee dynasty.

I also find it hilarious that people want to name Hoyt Wilhelm. Who here saw Hoyt Wilhelm pitch?

I agree that the game is different now. And I think we both agree that Mariano could have probably done whatever his team needed and been the best at it!

Mo didn't end the dynasty. Torre did. The middle infielders should have been at double play depth!

[JonEJet]

Wait, wait, wait.......

How can we talk about mariano being the greatest ever, when BlowSux said he was just the 3rd best closer in the division?