That is why the Sox acquired Beckett.

[PFSIKH]

In his 32nd start (198 IP), Beckett showed the flashes of brilliance that have tempted and frustrated the Red Sox Nation all year. If he can do that on a consistent basis, the 10 million per he resigned for will be a bargin.

[Blackout]

too bad he didn't this good when the Red Sox could've used it in August

[AFJF]

That is a HUGE if my friend. Beckett pitched like a #3 for most of the season and it's the flashes of dominance that got him his huge pay day. If he doesn't get it together in the next couple of seasons though....he's just another guy that "could of been"

IMO, he was brought in to beat the Yankees. Theo saw how he pitched vs. the Yanks in the WS and thought Beckett was a bona fide Yankee killer. Too small of a sampling IMO.

This season vs. the Yanks he was 2-2 with a 9.45 ERA and his best showing vs. the Yanks coming when the pennant race was over.

[Blackout]

That is a HUGE if my friend. Beckett pitched like a #3 for most of the season and it's the flashes of dominance that got him his huge pay day. If he doesn't get it together in the next couple of seasons though....he's just another guy that "could of been"

in 2004 and 2005, he gave up 30 home runs in 335.1 innings

in 2006 he gave up 34 home runs in 198 innings

not bad for a guy in his prime

[madmike1]

the twins are an AWFUL hitting team on the road. beckett has shown nothing to make anyone think he's gonna have a magic turnaround next year.

[PFSIKH]

That is a HUGE if my friend. Beckett pitched like a #3 for most of the season and it's the flashes of dominance that got him his huge pay day. If he doesn't get it together in the next couple of seasons though....he's just another guy that "could of been"

IMO, he was brought in to beat the Yankees. Theo saw how he pitched vs. the Yanks in the WS and thought Beckett was a bona fide Yankee killer. Too small of a sampling IMO.

This season vs. the Yanks he was 2-2 with a 9.45 ERA and his best showing vs. the Yanks coming when the pennant race was over.

I guess you forgot about his game in May vs the Yankees (7IP 6H 3R 7Ks).

He was brought to the Sox because they needed a young pitcher to anchor the staff for the next decade. Whether he is that guy remains to be seen. His issues are easily fixable. If listens to Tek and the staff, he will be that ace he was brought to Boston to be.

MM

Do not let the facts get in the way of your blind homerism.

The Twins are a better hitting team at home, but still hit .273 on the road. Good for mid-AL. Not exactly horrible and seeing they had just teed off on Boston pitching for 15 runs and 30 hits the previous two games, Becket did show something. Thanks for playing.

[Blackout]

PFSIKH, his win against the Twins was impressive, 8 shutout innings against Mauer and Morneau

however, why wasn't he putting up these games when the Red Sox needed him to earlier? It's nice if he gets a 8-0 win or whatever it was, but it came when the Red Sox were so far out of the pennant partially due to his suckyness in his other 20-some odd starts. It looks nice on baseball-reference, but its not really worth the huge price the Sox paid in that deal (losing Hanley Ramirez).

[madmike1]

I guess you forgot about his game in May vs the Yankees (7IP 6H 3R 7Ks).

He was brought to the Sox because they needed a young pitcher to anchor the staff for the next decade. Whether he is that guy remains to be seen. His issues are easily fixable. If listens to Tek and the staff, he will be that ace he was brought to Boston to be.

MM

Do not let the facts get in the way of your blind homerism.

The Twins are a better hitting team at home, but still hit .273 on the road. Good for mid-AL. Not exactly horrible and seeing they had just teed off on Boston pitching for 15 runs and 30 hits the previous two games, Becket did show something. Thanks for playing.

What exactly did he show? That he could have a good game once and a while vs a team with much worse road numbers? His numbers are AWFUL across the board and just because you HOPE that next year he pitches like the guy you thought you traded for dosn't mean that that will happen as i've said throughout this entire year, boston fans will RUE the day that your front office traded Hanley Ramriez and Anibal Sanchez for Beckett.

[PFSIKH]

What exactly did he show? That he could have a good game once and a while vs a team with much worse road numbers? His numbers are AWFUL across the board and just because you HOPE that next year he pitches like the guy you thought you traded for dosn't mean that that will happen as i've said throughout this entire year, boston fans will RUE the day that your front office traded Hanley Ramriez and Anibal Sanchez for Beckett.

Awful huh?

The Twins are 8th in the entire league in hitting on the road.

A whole .011 behind the league leading Skanks.

That is.........................

AWFUL

He will make 33 starts and eclipse 200+ innings both career highs. His 16 wins is also a career high and he is 3rd in the AL BAA. If he goes back to relying on mixing in his curve and stop trying to blow the batters away with his fastball. The Sox will have their ACE. Guranteed.

It is also funny since Sanchez threw the no-hitter his name has come up a lot more about being a negative impact on the Sox/Marlins trade. Coincidence?

[The Troll]

Wow, so he made a good start?

Annibal Sanchez made a better one.

[madmike1]

Awful huh?

The Twins are 8th in the entire league in hitting on the road.

A whole .011 behind the league leading Skanks.

That is.........................

AWFUL

He will make 33 starts and eclipse 200+ innings both career highs. His 16 wins is also a career high and he is 3rd in the AL BAA. If he goes back to relying on mixing in his curve and stop trying to blow the batters away with his fastball. The Sox will have their ACE. Guranteed.

It is also funny since Sanchez threw the no-hitter his name has come up a lot more about being a negative impact on the Sox/Marlins trade. Coincidence?

First of all i was saying this was an awful trade on this site WAY before the no hitter. 2nd if you're using baa and wins to judge beckett's season you're not gonna get much useful information. 3rd Beckett never put up ace numbers even in the NL so there is no reason to think that 25 "if's" will fall into place and he'll be better then he ever was with the marlins by magic. Thats all boston wishful thinking.

[PFSIKH]

First of all i was saying this was an awful trade on this site WAY before the no hitter. 2nd if you're using baa and wins to judge beckett's season you're not gonna get much useful information. 3rd Beckett never put up ace numbers even in the NL so there is no reason to think that 25 "if's" will fall into place and he'll be better then he ever was with the marlins by magic. Thats all boston wishful thinking.

Yes, but your logic is always flawed. Skank fans want to have there cake and eat it to. Ramirez has had a great year. He would have filled a void on the Sox, but keeping him would have done nothing to fill the need for a young starting pitcher to anchor the rotation.

With Hindsight, this point is prooven beyond a shadow of doubt. Beckett might have alternated good and bad starts, but he did take the ball 32 times. If he learns to pitch and better utilize his talent, the Sox do have that guy. Plus, with all the injuries to the rotation, just having Arroyo and Ramirez would not have fixed the situation. The Sox would be lucky to be .500.

I threw the BAA out there because I knew you would walk right into it. Everybody knows you use obscure stats to make your point and in some saber mathecian geek way they are only good for you.

The only question for Beckett coming into this season was his durability. He answered that. He will have 33 starts and 200+ innings. The only question that remains is will he learn to pitch. He has done enough to suggest he will. He had the worst year of his career trying to survive in the better league and by relying on one pitch. The only if is will he listen to Tek and Schil and learn to pitch in the AL.

Troll

True. The point is only there to illustrate that no one ever mentioned Sanchez's name until he threw the no-no. Seeing I have had the pleasure of being the fan of two of the greatest pitchers of this generation (Rogah and Pedro) and both of them are still looking for their first no-hitters, the accomplishment is great, but hardly is a sign of future success.

[GimmeShelter]

Beckett is a very good pitcher with Ace possibilities no matter what some Yank fans argue.

His ERA is normally in the 3's over his career and was affected by his penchant to give up the HR ball this year. He will need to correct that in order to join the leagues elite.

16 wins is still 16 wins however despite those who want to argue that is not how to judge a pitcher.

On saying the Sox should not have made the trade: If the Yanks had been offered Beckett for Melky and Rasner or one of their other (non #1) ML starters last off season they jump all over the deal as well.

[madmike1]

Yes, but your logic is always flawed. Skank fans want to have there cake and eat it to. Ramirez has had a great year. He would have filled a void on the Sox, but keeping him would have done nothing to fill the need for a young starting pitcher to anchor the rotation.

With Hindsight, this point is prooven beyond a shadow of doubt. Beckett might have alternated good and bad starts, but he did take the ball 32 times. If he learns to pitch and better utilize his talent, the Sox do have that guy. Plus, with all the injuries to the rotation, just having Arroyo and Ramirez would not have fixed the situation. The Sox would be lucky to be .500.

I threw the BAA out there because I knew you would walk right into it. Everybody knows you use obscure stats to make your point and in some saber mathecian geek way they are only good for you.

The only question for Beckett coming into this season was his durability. He answered that. He will have 33 starts and 200+ innings. The only question that remains is will he learn to pitch. He has done enough to suggest he will. He had the worst year of his career trying to survive in the better league and by relying on one pitch. The only if is will he listen to Tek and Schil and learn to pitch in the AL.

Troll

True. The point is only there to illustrate that no one ever mentioned Sanchez's name until he threw the no-no. Seeing I have had the pleasure of being the fan of two of the greatest pitchers of this generation (Rogah and Pedro) and both of them are still looking for their first no-hitters, the accomplishment is great, but hardly is a sign of future success.

I mentioned sanchez's name on this website multiple times before the no hitter so i'm not 2nd guessing anything. You can judge effectiveness on BAA all you want but you'll be getting an awful picture of how good the player preformed. Stats like WHIP k/9 ERA and g/f ratio are HARDLY obscure saberhead stats. If you want to say that because of the fact that beckett didn't get hurt this year that makes this awful trade worthwile then you're fooling yourself. Boston would've been a MUCH better team this year (and for the future) if they woudl've had Hanley Ramriez at SS (he's MUCH better then alex gonzalez) and sanchez in the starting rotation (he has better numbers then any boston starter.) If you want to trade 2 great prospects who are clearly both going to be good major leaguers for a "thrower" who you're goning to have to teach how to pitch then you go do that. Boston will regret it for a long time however.

[madmike1]

Beckett is a very good pitcher with Ace possibilities no matter what some Yank fans argue.

His ERA is normally in the 3's over his career and was affected by his penchant to give up the HR ball this year. He will need to correct that in order to join the leagues elite.

16 wins is still 16 wins however despite those who want to argue that is not how to judge a pitcher.

On saying the Sox should not have made the trade: If the Yanks had been offered Beckett for Melky and Rasner or one of their other (non #1) ML starters last off season they jump all over the deal as well.

Ramriez and Sanchez were better prospects then Melky and Rasner. The yankees could've made the trade for Cano and Wang but tahnkfully they didn't. That would've been even more then boston gave up... but not much.

Remember somthing about those 3 era's. they were HIGH 3 ERA's in the NL. you had to add a run on to that for pitching in the AL even in his good years.

[GimmeShelter]

Ramriez and Sanchez were better prospects then Melky and Rasner. The yankees could've made the trade for Cano and Wang but tahnkfully they didn't. That would've been even more then boston gave up... but not much.

Remember somthing about those 3 era's. they were HIGH 3 ERA's in the NL. you had to add a run on to that for pitching in the AL even in his good years.

LOL....I am not ready to label Sanchez and Ramirez as close to being Wang and Cano clones just yet and if they were still in Boston uniforms neither would you.

Yanks would have thought about that deal as well had Cano and Wang had not already seen ML action and succeeded unlike Hanley and Sanchez.

If I recall correctly, the Yanks had Cano in the Randy deal but the DBacks stupidly did not want him so lets not act as if the Yanks were smarter than Boston.

In regards to ERA, I agree with the added run in the AL as the Yanks staff shows as well.

[madmike1]

LOL....I am not ready to label Sanchez and Ramirez as close to being Wang and Cano clones just yet and if they were still in Boston uniforms neither would you.

Yanks would have thought about that deal as well had Cano and Wang had not already seen ML action and secceeded already unlike Hanley and Sanchez.

In regards to ERA, I agree with the added run in the AL as the Yanks staff shows as well.

do you realize how rare it is for a 22 year old SS to have an over 800 OPS? Guys with his kind of numbers usualy just devolep more power as they get older. ramriez is gonna be an all star type player for a LONG LONG time and it's not like he came out of nowhere. He was ranked high on every prospect ranking list and his rookie year is almost identical to cano's playing a higher value posision and he would've repaced an AWFUL hitter in gonzalez.

As far as sanchez goes, maybe boston didn't realize he would bo as good as he has been but there is no arguing with his stats. They are STELLER across the board. Better then anything wang did his rookie year. I don't know if he'll end up better then wang or not but it's very clear to me that boston would be in MUCH better shape as a franchise if they had not made this trade.

[Blackout]

Beckett is a very good pitcher with Ace possibilities no matter what some Yank fans argue.

16 wins is still 16 wins however despite those who want to argue that is not how to judge a pitcher.

randy johnson was 16-14 in 2004.

he was 17-8 in 2005 and 17-10 so far in 2006

are you going to tell us Randy is a better pitcher now than in 2004?

Beckett is a nice #2, but I'm afraid the "ace" title that was branded on him entering 2006 was a little bit too much.

[madmike1]

randy johnson was 16-14 in 2004.

he was 17-8 in 2005 and 17-10 so far in 2006

are you going to tell us Randy is a better pitcher now than in 2004?

Beckett is a nice #2, but I'm afraid the "ace" title that was branded on him entering 2006 was a little bit too much.

I don't even think Randy 's numbers this year show that he's a no 2 starter and he's been better then beckett. Great example of how useless a stat wins are.

[Blackout]

they're a team stat

walter johnson lost over 20 games by a score of 1-0 because he spent most of his career with last place teams

wins are nowhere near as reliable as ERA, ERA+, WHIP and K/9 when judging a pitcher

they're nice, sure, but not the end-all stat Gimmieshelter makes them out to be

[GimmeShelter]

Yankee Homers once again miss the point in their haste to belittle everything non pinstripe.

No one is knocking Sanchez and Ramirez.

Again, if the Yanks had been offered Beckett for Wang and Cano prior to them playing in the majors, they in all likely hood make the deal just as they were ready to include Cano in the Randy trade with Arizona.

Lets not forget the Yanks watched first hand as Beckett, the pitcher you now knock, pissed all over them in the 03 WS.

[madmike1]

Yankee Homers once again miss the point in their haste to belittle everything non pinstripe.

No one is knocking Sanchez and Ramirez.

Again, if the Yanks had been offered Beckett for Wang and Cano prior to them playing in the majors, they in all likely hood make the deal just as they were ready to include Cano in the Randy trade with Arizona.

Lets not forget the Yanks watched first hand as Beckett, the pitcher you now knock, pissed all over them in the 03 WS.

Thats why GM's are paid the big bucks. You have to not let small sample sizees such as the 03 series fool you and at the same time be able to scout your own minors to make sure you know what prospects you can afford to trade and which you can't. Cashman has just been ALOT better at that then Whoever is running boston.

[GimmeShelter]

Thats why GM's are paid the big bucks. You have to not let small sample sizees such as the 03 series fool you and at the same time be able to scout your own minors to make sure you know what prospects you can afford to trade and which you can't. Cashman has just been ALOT better at that then Whoever is running boston.

Then why was Cano on the table in the Randy deal who is 16 yrs older than Beckett?

[Blackout]

Yankee Homers once again miss the point in their haste to belittle everything non pinstripe.

No one is knocking Sanchez and Ramirez.

Again, if the Yanks had been offered Beckett for Wang and Cano prior to them playing in the majors, they in all likely hood make the deal just as they were ready to include Cano in the Randy trade with Arizona.

Lets not forget the Yanks watched first hand as Beckett, the pitcher you now knock, pissed all over them in the 03 WS.

so should we morgage our future and trade Phillip Hughes to the Indians so we can get Aaron Boone back, who pissed over the Red Sox with one swing in 2003?

the sox trading Hanley will go down as the dumbest move they've made since getting rid of a youngster named Jeff Bagwell

[GimmeShelter]

so should we morgage our future and trade Phillip Hughes to the Indians so we can get Aaron Boone back, who pissed over the Red Sox with one swing in 2003?

the sox trading Hanley will go down as the dumbest move they made since getting rid of a youngster named Jeff Bagwell

My post went totally over your head.

[Blackout]

may I ask why you didn't reply to my Randy Johnson 2004 vs 2005/2006 post?

was it over your head?

[GimmeShelter]

may I ask why you didn't reply to my Randy Johnson 2004 vs 2005/2006 post?

was it over your head?

LOL, No it was irrevelant to the discussion though.

Noone is saying Randy wasn't a better pitcher on a inferior team in 2004.

We just disagree on this BO. No biggie as time will tell just as it has with Pavano and Lidle being nothing more than mediocre pitchers.

I do think the Yanks make the same trade though if it was offered without them having the benefit of seeing the players perform on the ML level as was the case with Boston.

Nothing in Yankee history says otherwise.

That's all I am saying here along with the fact that Beckett is far better than you imply, but you know that.

[madmike1]

Then why was Cano on the table in the Randy deal who is 16 yrs older than Beckett?

Because at that time Cano wasn't viewed as a big time prospect and the yankees knew that the dbacks wouldn't take him. They were able to get the dbacks to take a higher rakned prospect in navarro that they knew wasn't as good as people thought. Thats what good system scouting does for you.

[Blackout]

I said Beckett was a solid #2 didn't I?

isnt that good enough for you?

[madmike1]

LOL, No it was irrevelant to the discussion though.

Noone is saying Randy wasn't a better pitcher on a inferior team in 2004.

We just disagree on this BO. No biggie as time will tell just as it has with Pavano and Lidle being nothing more than mediocre pitchers.

I do think the Yanks make the same trade though if it was offered without them having the benefit of seeing the players perform on the ML level as was the case with Boston.

Nothing in Yankee history says otherwise.

That's all I am saying here along with the fact that Beckett is far better than you imply, but you know that.

aside from nick johnson who they saw play in the majors, what minor leaguers have the yankees traded away in the past 12 years since gene michael took over that are ANYWHERE NEAR as good as ramriez or sanchez?

[GimmeShelter]

Because at that time Cano wasn't viewed as a big time prospect and the yankees knew that the dbacks wouldn't take him. They were able to get the dbacks to take a higher rakned prospect in navarro that they knew wasn't as good as people thought. Thats what good system scouting does for you.

You're kidding right?

[madmike1]

You're kidding right?

check any list man. navarro was the yankees no 1 prospect for years and thats why the dbacks took him and the yankees knew he had flaws in his game which is why they let him go.

[GimmeShelter]

aside from nick johnson who they saw play in the majors, what minor leaguers have the yankees traded away in the past 12 years since gene michael took over that are ANYWHERE NEAR as good as ramriez or sanchez?

Why doesn't Nick Johson count?

Anyway between the Jeter-Posada-Bernie-Mo, 1995 year and last years Wang -Cano call ups, exactly what prospects did the Yanks develop that they could have traded away that were any good? Nick Johnson thats who and they traded him for nothing.

Remeber Sori was a foriegn prospect the Yanks outbid everyone on.

[madmike1]

Why doesn't Nick Johson count?

Anyway between the Jeter-Posada-Bernie-Mo, 1995 year and last years Wang -Cano call ups, exactly what prospects did the Yanks develop that they could have traded away that were any good? Nick Johnson thats who and they traded him for nothing.

Remeber Sori was a foriegn prospect the Yanks outbid everyone on.

Nick Johnson was in the majors for TWO YEARS before that trade. That was a complely different situation. Of course it was a horrible trade but you're giving the boston front office a pass because they didn't see those guys play. Johnson dosn't fall into that catagory.

I'm still waiting for the minor leaguers the yankees have traded that are ANYWHERE NEAR as good as ramriez or sanchez... and i'm going to be waiting awhile becuase there arn't any. It's amazing to me how much boston fans want to defend their front office who did a TERRIBLE job this year and is the no 1 reason boston won't make the playoffs.

As far as international FA's those amounts of money 1-2 milion dollar bonuses are available to ANY TEAM. You know what team signed the best class of international FA's this year? The cleveland indians. NOWHERE NEAR a big market team. Boston and ANY OTHER TEAM aside from the marlins could've signed soriano.

[Blackout]

Why doesn't Nick Johson count?

Anyway between the Jeter-Posada-Bernie-Mo, 1995 year and last years Wang -Cano call ups, exactly what prospects did the Yanks develop that they could have traded away that were any good? Nick Johnson thats who and they traded him for nothing.

Remeber Sori was a foriegn prospect the Yanks outbid everyone on.