Piniella wants A-Rod

[Scott Dierking]

so the Yankees will just pass.

Good luck with that Barton.

Just because I am a baseball realist, and try not to sway every deal in the favor of the Yankkes, does not make me a Yankee hater.

i know Yankee fans (at least some on this board) hate to hear the truth, but some one has to tell you.

[Scott Dierking]

He cant handle the NYC pressure, but he was a very good postseason performer on the mariners. He hit .400 vs the yankees in the 2000 ALCS with 2 HRs and 5 rbis.

In that case, lets start bronzing the caste for Cooperstown. I guess his World Series ring got lost in the mail.

[GimmeShelter]

The Cubs are expected to make a push to sign pending free agent Carlos Lee.

Lee apparently has said he'd like to play for the Cubs, so it looks like a good match, assuming Chicago can pony up the cash it will take to sign him after his big season.

Source: Chicago Sun-Times

[kloogy]

I bet if Mark and Kerry leave the bad luck Cubs, they get healthy and become the best 1-2 punch in baseball. It's not their fault they are stuck in that cespool of baseball.

[Barton]

In that case, lets start bronzing the caste for Cooperstown. I guess his World Series ring got lost in the mail.

You're a character, scott.

I showed you that he has put up some great postseason performances outside of yankee pinstripes and you come up with a blanket statement because he hasnt won a WS.

I guess every veteran player in MLB completely sucks because they havent won a WS. Its a team game. Unfortunately on the Yankees, Arod doesnt seem to be a team guy, thats why I want him traded, not because he isnt a great player.

Tell me what exactly are the Yankees gonna get for Arod? You sound like the Yankees would be lucky to get a guy like jeff cirillo and a low a prospect for Arod simply because he has been bad in the postseason for the Yankees.

Nothing else matters to losing franchises like the Cubs than what a guy did for the Yankees I guess?

Makes alot of sense.

[Barton]

Good luck with that Barton.

Just because I am a baseball realist, and try not to sway every deal in the favor of the Yankkes, does not make me a Yankee hater.

i know Yankee fans (at least some on this board) hate to hear the truth, but some one has to tell you.

Has something flown over your head?

I dont see Yankee fans here sayng "We'll definetly get Zambrano for Arod"

We're saying thats what we have to get from them, or we wont trade him to the cubs.

Its really very simple once you take the YH glasses off.

[Scott Dierking]

You're a character, scott.

I showed you that he has put up some great postseason performances outside of yankee pinstripes and you come up with a blanket statement because he hasnt won a WS.

I guess every veteran player in MLB completely sucks because they havent won a WS. Its a team game. Unfortunately on the Yankees, Arod doesnt seem to be a team guy, thats why I want him traded, not because he isnt a great player.

Tell me what exactly are the Yankees gonna get for Arod? You sound like the Yankees would be lucky to get a guy like jeff cirillo and a low a prospect for Arod simply because he has been bad in the postseason for the Yankees.

Nothing else matters to losing franchises like the Cubs than what a guy did for the Yankees I guess?

Makes alot of sense.

Barton, if someone is paid 25 mill a year, teh expectations are that he should be a catalyst for a winner. Not evryone (actually NO ONE) else is making that money in comparison. THAT is why A-Rod gets picked on. I thought you were less naive than to paint him with the same brush as "every other veteran"

Barton, in teh real world, as in baseball, if you get paid more than others-the expectations will be for you to make a difference. Not just be "one of the guys"

Sorry to bring a harsh reality on you.

[Scott Dierking]

Has something flown over your head?

I dont see Yankee fans here sayng "We'll definetly get Zambrano for Arod"

We're saying thats what we have to get from them, or we wont trade him to the cubs.

Its really very simple once you take the YH glasses off.

And I repeat, good luck in keeping him. That will provide for much entertainment, all the way around.

[Bugg]

From YES-

http://www.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?

ymd=20061017&content_id=1411547&oid=36019&vkey=5&print=true

10/17/2006 2:25 PM ET

Wishful Thinking for Yankees Fans

Piniella's hiring doesn't mean A-Rod will be a Cub

Steven Goldman

According to an ESPN.com story, job one for new Cubs manager Lou Piniella will be wedging Alex Rodriguez away from the Yankees. According to several other articles floating about today, the Cubs plan to pursue Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Lee. The latter news is not all that significant - half the teams in baseball plan to pursue Soriano and Lee, who are two of the bigger bats likely to be on the market after the World Series. The real question is if the Cubs can make even a vaguely compelling offer on Rodriguez, should the Yankees choose to move him and should Rodriguez choose to be moved.

Ironically, the Cubs are probably the last team that should be hunting for Soriano and Lee. This season the Cubs failed to draw 400 walks in a 162-game schedule, something that is nearly impossible to do without trying. Soriano and Lee will help the Cubs with their on-base percentage problem — Hillary Clinton would help them with their on-base percentage problem — but they will represent only intermediate steps in fixing what has been a long-term, systemic problem.

Alex Rodriguez would help the Cubs in several ways. He's an all-around hitter, one with a good sense of the strike zone, a power stroke that Wrigley Field should reward, and, if he still is up to playing shortstop, he could displace the impotent Ron Cedeño. That last is no sure thing, if Rodriguez's remaining ability to play shortstop can be intuited from his play at third base in 2006.

Positing a deal in which Rodriguez goes to the Cubs immediately runs into some reality-based problems. Get ready for a near-tautological statement: the Cubs lost 96 games this season because they don't have a lot of talent. While they do have some players who might be interesting to the Yankees, it seems unlikely they would deplete what little talent they do have to acquire one player. Rodriguez has enough problems keeping himself together in a fully staffed lineup of superstars. Asking him to be an entire team might cause his head to explode.

The Yankees need young pitching. The Cubs have a few pitchers, though they can't necessarily spare them. There is also the interesting question of whether or not the Yankees themselves accept that they need young pitching. Even if they were to acquire it, they might not use it. It is foolish to think that 30 years of organizational refusal to embrace young hurlers has changed just because of one playoff loss.

The Cubs tried many of their pitching prospects in the majors last year after their starting rotation imploded. Kerry Wood and Mark Prior couldn't stay healthy and just about everyone else was terrible, so there was a season-long audition system in place. Fourteen pitchers started for the Cubs in 2006. Among these were rookies Angel Guzmán, Sean Marshall, Rich Hill, Carlos Marmol, and Juan Mateo.

Hill, a 26-year-old lefty, had had some trouble in early major league trials, but he had a great half-season at Triple-A Iowa (1.80 ERA in 100 innings, 62 hits, 21 walks, 135 strikeouts, just three home runs) and then came back to the majors and went 6-3 with a 2.93 ERA in 13 games after the All-Star break. His out pitch is a big, Zito-esque curveball.

Guzman, who will be 25 next season, was hammered in 10 starts, going 0-6 with a 9.28 ERA. The righty has a vast injury catalog and is a poor risk to establish himself in the bigs despite hard stuff. He's headed for the bullpen, the disabled list, or both. Marshall is a 24-year-old lefty whose control is unfinished furniture. His sinker elicits some moderate groundball results, though nothing Wang-like. He missed August with a strained left oblique muscle and was pounded in five starts after returning.

Marmol, a righty, will be 24 next year. He too has control problems, walking 59 in 77 major league innings. The Cubs hurried Marmol past Triple-A. He's not a top prospect and seems most likely to be in the bullpen in the future. Mateo turns 24 this December. As with Marmol, Mateo went from Double-A to the majors. This seemed to be in the cards from the beginning, pardon the pun, because the Cardinals made him a Rule 5 pick last winter. He might have a future, but he's a project.

At the Double-A level and lower, the Cubs have some good prospects like Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal. These are longer-range prospects, though Gallagher could make it up sometime next year. Position players include Triple-A center fielder Felix Pie, but has too much trouble controlling the strike zone to be a coming star. After Pie there is no coffee or anything else. Second baseman Eric Patterson is touted but probably won't hit much. Outfielder Angel Pagán, a walking oxymoron, will turn 26 next year. Given age and talent levels, he rates Half a Melky on the prospect scale (Pie is 0.81 Melky, while Angels shortstop Brandon Wood rates 1.5 Melky). Half a Melky is equivalent to 36 Bubba. One Bubba equals 42 leke, the national currency of Albania. Forty-two leke equals roughly half a dollar.

The big fish in any Cubs deal would not be the prospects but major league third baseman Aramis Ramirez and pitcher Carlos Zambrano. Ramirez is a good player, though he has his flaws. He's not especially patient, nor is he a good fielder. He had an indifferent first half, but saved his season with a wild and crazy finish in which he hit .328/.388/.653 after the break. That's not likely to happen again. Yankee Stadium may not be the friendliest place for him to hit. Most importantly, he may not be the Cubs' to offer. Ramirez can choose to exit his contract and declare free agency this winter.

In case you haven't been paying attention, Zambrano is one of the best pitchers in the game. His career ERA is 3.39 in 977 innings. A hard thrower with great movement, Zambrano not only gets lots of strikeouts, he induces grounders as well. He wouldn't solve all of New York's pitching problems, but he would be a very good of a start.

Again, the problem with any of these scenarios is that they are highly unlikely. Let's do some back-of-the-envelope figuring. Say the Cubs can retain Ramirez and manage to acquire Rodriguez and move him to short. Let's further suppose that A-Rod is average defensively there, and that he'll be about the offensive player he's always been, which means he'll give the Cubs about 120 runs of offense (we're not talking VORP or anything here, just raw runs).

Incumbent shortstop Ronny Cedeño was one of the worst hitters in the game last year, batting .245/.271/.339. He drew only 17 walks, which is really hard to do when you're batting eighth in the National League. Rodriguez would be an 80-run improvement over Cedeño. That's a huge swing. It's not enough to make the Cubs respectable, but it's a nice push. Simultaneously, though, the Cubs will have given up a pitcher who was 53 runs above replacement last year. They will have to make that up, and it won't be easy. The Cubs will also have given up five years of age in the deal. If Zambrano can avoid major arm trouble, he's much more likely to contribute to the next good Cubs team than any 31-year-old playing today.

Should all the conditions for an A-Rod deal be met from the Yankees' end, and should the Cubs actually make an offer on A-Rod that includes Zambrano and a signed Ramirez, or Zambrano and Hill, or some other combination involving Zambrano? It would be a tough call. Again, a key factor depends on what the Yankees intend to do with their pitching staff next year. They have youngsters of their own in Phil Hughes and Tyler Clippard who may be ready by mid-year or sooner, not to mention all the veterans they have to wade through. As such, Hill might be a redundancy with no guarantee of making the staff. The presence of those youngsters also argues against making an A-Rod deal for pitching; the team's need may not be as great as it now appears to be.

Finally, while Zambrano is a good bet to retain his value while switching leagues, between having to face the DH and the overall better quality of the American League right now, any pitcher might pick up half a run of ERA.

The key here is that it's going to take two good players to get enough value that the Yankees can make a deal without taking a step back. Few teams are deep enough in talent to be able to afford that kind of deal. The Cubs are no exception.

SWEET LOU

Piniella left Tampa Bay because he wasn't a masochist, but you wonder why this manager, who wants to be a finisher for a team rather than a builder, just took on another franchise that's lost at sea. The Cubs are the worst team in the National League and have little hope of rebounding quickly. Piniella has shown little patience or aptitude with the kinds of tasks that absorb managers of rebuilding teams, like sorting good pitchers from bad. He'd prefer that they be sorted for him. That's not going to happen with the Cubs.

HOUSEKEEPING I

It has been reported that Randy Johnson will soon undergo back surgery. Supposedly he'll be ready for spring training. We'll see. Maybe with a repaired back he'll have one more good year in him. A lot of the problem last season wasn't his stuff, it was his inability to throw his slider properly. That might have something to do with the back, or it could just be that at his age sliders no longer do what you want them to.

HOUSEKEEPING II

The Yankees sent Andy Cannizaro down to Scranton, while Nick Green and Sal Fasano elected to become free agents. Neither can hit enough to help a club with an emergency start, let alone two weeks of filling in for a regular suffering from a pulled hamstring. The Yankees need to improve their contingencies; if they fail, chances are Fasano and Green or players of a similar caliber will still be out there well into the winter.

Steven Goldman's Pinstriped Bible appears weekly on YESNetwork.com. "Forging Genius," Steve's biography of Casey Stengel is available at Amazon.com and a bookstore near you, as is "Mind Game," about the intellectual conflict between the Yankees and the Red Sox. Steve's Pinstriped Blog is available weekdays on YESNetwork.com, and more Steve can be found at Baseball Prospectus Web site. Your questions, comments, suggestions welcomed at oldprofessor@wholesomereading.com. The opinions stated above are solely those of the author and should not be attributed to anyone connected in an official capacity with the YES Network.

[Scott Dierking]

So, let's re-cap here.

Yankee fans admit, in their own words that A-Rod:

-Is not a team player

-Can not perform in the clutch

-Is not like by his teammates

-Will be villified in NY

YET, they expect HUGE offers for him and teams lining up at their door.

And, A-Rod totally controls where he can go

Anybody else see the hypocrisy in that thinking and how it does not add up?

[kloogy]

Good article. I doubt they would part with Zambrano. But if they did, it would be a good deal.

[Barton]

Barton, if someone is paid 25 mill a year, teh expectations are that he should be a catalyst for a winner. Not evryone (actually NO ONE) else is making that money in comparison. THAT is why A-Rod gets picked on. I thought you were less naive than to paint him with the same brush as "every other veteran"

Barton, in teh real world, as in baseball, if you get paid more than others-the expectations will be for you to make a difference. Not just be "one of the guys"

Sorry to bring a harsh reality on you.

Was Arod picked on at texas, when the entire team completely sucked? I think not.

Yankee fans were tuff on this guy because he wasnt the same player that he was in texas and seattle. There will be teams banking on him returning to that guy once he leaves NY, I think. I dont think you can say that other teams, out west especially, arent thinking "He's a great HOF player, he just needs to get our of NY".

We'll see. But I dont think we're keeping him, and we'll get a damn good young pitcher for him as well as other good prospects.

[Barton]

So, let's re-cap here.

Yankee fans admit, in their own words that A-Rod:

-Is not a team player

-Can not perform in the clutch

-Is not like by his teammates

-Will be villified in NY

YET, they expect HUGE offers for him and teams lining up at their door.

And, A-Rod totally controls where he can go

Anybody else see the hypocrisy in that thinking and how it does not add up?

Thats all NY Yankee clubhouse situation, not totally on Arod.

Once he returns to his A game, nothing else will matter. I dont remember hearing anything neg about Arod when he was an M or a ranger, do you?

Exactly.

[Scott Dierking]

I dont think you can say that other teams, out west especially, arent thinking "He's a great HOF player, he just needs to get our of NY".

Young Barton, They have TVs and newspapers and scouts travel even from the West Coast.

Sorry

[Scott Dierking]

Thats all NY Yankee clubhouse situation, not totally on Arod.

Once he returns to his A game, nothing else will matter. I dont remember hearing anything neg about Arod when he was an M or a ranger, do you?

Exactly.

So, you are saying just that pressure situations get to him, huh?

Yeah, let me mortgage the farm for that. I can't get enough of those players.

[NJ]

I bet if Mark and Kerry leave the bad luck Cubs, they get healthy and become the best 1-2 punch in baseball. It's not their fault they are stuck in that cespool of baseball.

Ok... I'm in. How much money do you have? Certified checks or cash only. Credit policy: 100% down - no payments.

[Barton]

So, you are saying just that pressure situations get to him, huh?

Yeah, let me mortgage the farm for that. I can't get enough of those players.

Jesus Christ! You are f'n stubborn.

Go look at Arods postseason performances as an M and get back to me.

NYC is a whole different ball game, even NYC playoff baseball.

I dont remember fans booing him when he was an M or a Ranger do you?

Completey different situation and feel for Arod. Whatever, I'll bump this thread after he's traded and laugh at you.

[Latinlawyer]

Barton....look the yanks are not getting a #1 pitcher for Choke-rod. They may get a #2 or #3 but not a front line guy.

LL

[NJ]

Now, now, now. See, you Cub fans are acting exactly just like that..... Cub fans.

You need to act more like BASEBALL fans. And that means to concede to everything that the Yankees want. That is in the best interests of BASEBALL.

You guys really need to be smarter.

You're right Dierk. That was pretty selfish on my part and not putting Baseball first.

Ok...revised final offer. Wood, Prior, and fireman of the new millenium - Ryan Dempster. That should cinch it.

[Scott Dierking]

Jesus Christ! You are f'n stubborn.

Go look at Arods postseason performances as an M and get back to me.

NYC is a whole different ball game, even NYC playoff baseball.

I dont remember fans booing him when he was an M or a Ranger do you?

Completey different situation and feel for Arod. Whatever, I'll bump this thread after he's traded and laugh at you.

Hmmm, and I wonder why the Mariners could not re-sign him, and I wonder why Texas felt the need to trade him off so rapidly?

And after you answer that question, tell me again how "all these teams will be lining up" to trade for him?

[SouthernJet]

You're right Dierk. That was pretty selfish on my part and not putting Baseball first.

Ok...revised final offer. Wood, Prior, and fireman of the new millenium - Ryan Dempster. That should cinch it.

and The Second City Comedy Club,, Yank fans need something to laugh about after this disaster of a season

http://www.secondcity.com/?id=theatres/chicago

[uart]

But no one is giving up a top talent, maybe THE top talent, in all of Baseball, for a salary dump. It's not like he is washed up, he's 31 years old.

Um, dude? Do you remember how ARod ended up as a Yankee?

[Maxman]

Barton....look the yanks are not getting a #1 pitcher for Choke-rod. They may get a #2 or #3 but not a front line guy.

LL

That is okay. Because the all time home run champ will sell a lot of seats along the way. And eventually the Yankees will win it all again. Then it will be one big happy family!

[TaborJet]

I think Arod is a good fit for the cubs, even for their #1 pitcher.

The Cubs are not a playoff team, and Arod is not a playoff hitter.

So let the Cubbies give up their pest pitcher to a team that could have used him in game 3 of the ALCS this year. And last year.

[Green Jets & Ham]

You are not getting Zambrano.

I said it before and I'll say it again ... unless its for Carlos Zambrano, no way I'm trading Arod to the Cubs

[Green Jets & Ham]

If Zambrano is not coming back, then there can be no deal. Sure, there are useful pieces in Chicago, like Hill (who might be your #2 right now, given the health of Prior and Wood), kids like Pie and Harvey, and maybe Eyre, to help in the pen.

But without Zambrano coming back, there can be no deal. A-Rod is not a player you give up for just prospects, or unproven kids.

Even A-Rod for Zambrano is not an even deal. My take is that the Yankees should throw in some salary, and get back Pawlieck as well.

I AGREE

Too many people around here, YANKEE FANS INCLUDED, are starting to believe their own BS about Arod being a POS ... but this guy is an ALL-TIME GREAT, HALL OF FAME LOCK, who will almost assuredly be the ALL TIME HR KING down the road ... and at Wrigley he'll consistantly hit 50+ HR's like he has a license ... heck, in that park he might hit 60+

NO WAY I trade Arod to the Cubs for anything less than Z ... NO WAY!!

I'd rather keep Arod than get hosed for anything less than Z

If Cashman dealt Arod to the Cubs without getting back Z, I'd know Cashman is an absolute Jack@$$

[DireJet38]

I'd take anything for A-rod.

Including chuck norris's tears, some ******* told me they cure cancer.

[Barton]

Zambrano is not a guy I am very high on, I have seen him get hot on the mound and implode. His stuff is dominant for sure, but I'm not sure he has it all goin on for him upstairs.

I actually would really like to trade with the Dodgers:

We give them Alex Rodriguez and we get Chad Billinglsey, Laroche (their 3B prospect who's a top guy) and 1 of their other pitching prospects.

Bottom line is, we can set up a big part of the future of this team by trading Arod.

It has to be done if the deal is right.

[shutout]

I'd take anything for A-rod.

Including chuck norris's tears, some ******* told me they cure cancer.

Yeah,but it'd be a bad trade for the Yankees,as everyone knows that unfortunately Chuck Norris never cries

[VAJetsFan]

Yes, VA, I am aware that trades are done like that often.

Mike intimated that they NEVEr are done in the way I described.

If I were the Yankees, and I had strong inclination to trade A-Rod, I would approach him about the idea, see if they can agree if it is in the best interests of both parties, and if he agrees, have him submit a list to me of preferred teams.

I then deal from a position a stronger position in making a deal with a particular team, because I have the foreknowledge that a trade is in fact possible.

Dealing from a position of a trade where it can be vetoed is not dealing from strength.

Mike-You said A-Rod carries all the leverage-That is VERY far from the truth. The Yankees can make the best deal for themselves, and A-Rod can just go-No Thanks. Done.

Appolgize for getting back so late...actually, my odd schedule is the primary reason I post so infrequently- I hate not being able to respond to people.

Anyway, my point was that trades are done both ways, but coming to a trade agreement first is definately risky. I could definately see it working out the way you describe, but due to how the last couple of years have played out, I can't imagine A-rod blocking a trade to any borderline contender.

I firmly believe that the Yanks will move A-rod this winter for a package of players headed by a legit #2 starter. FWIW, I don't see a deal like Burrell-A-rod even being close to reality...good pitching will be coming back. The problem with the Cubs is that they don't have a legit #2- they've just got Zambrano + a bunch of question marks.

The fact is, without Lou shooting his mouth off day 1, there is no Cubs- A-rod talk. There are several teams out there that can afford him and are much better matches with the Yanks. I see the Yankees asking for Z, being turned down, and moving on to a better deal elsewhere. It simply makes the most sense for all parties involved.

[uart]

http://baseballgm.blogspot.com/2006_10_17_baseballgm_archive.html

[uart]

Hmmm, and I wonder why the Mariners could not re-sign him,

They couldn't afford him -- he was then and is now, the most talented player in the league and wanted to be paid as such.

and I wonder why Texas felt the need to trade him off so rapidly?

Texas realized that ARod wasn't a one-man team and decided to re-structure their payroll.

And after you answer that question, tell me again how "all these teams will be lining up" to trade for him?

Why did the Yankees trade for ARod? Why did the Red Sox want him too? Texas offered the Yankees salary relief. ARod isn't nearly as expensive now as he was before the trade to the yankees. Texas is still paying a huge chunk of his salary, and who knows, for the right package coming back, the Yankees might even kick in some salary relief as well.

ARod will be affordable. Especially to a big-market team like the Cubs (The Cubbies may act like a small-market team, but Chicago is the third-largest city and the third-biggest TV market).

---

Completely Unrelated Side note: if Boston can field the second largest payroll in baseball in the 24th biggest city and 5th biggest TV market, why do the Phillies keep cutting payroll and acting so stingy in the 5th largest city and the 4th largest TV market? You'd think there would be money to be made? I mean, Philadelphia is the largest TV market with only one baseball team. Chicago, NY, LA all have two (if you count LA of Anaheim)...

---

Back on point: ARod isn't unaffordable, and especially not to a team like the Cubs who have a huge following and are in a huge city.

[SouthernJet]

And eventually the Yankees will win it all again. Then it will be one big happy family!

[mbn007]

Barton....look the yanks are not getting a #1 pitcher for Choke-rod. They may get a #2 or #3 but not a front line guy.

LL

Then we don't trade him. We sit him down with Torre and they work it out togrther, like men.

Hey, A-Rod is not being dumped, or sold cheaply. We are talking about a guy who will re-write the record book when he is done. No team is getting him from the Yankees without paying the piper. If we do not get back fair value (not necessarily "equal" value, but "fair" value), then we keep him, and suffer with his 35+ Hrs, 120+ RBIS, et al, per season, and hope that one year, he does hit in the post-season.

Things could be a lot worse.

[mbn007]

Um, dude? Do you remember how ARod ended up as a Yankee?

Texas dumped him, although Sori was not a bad return and the kid (Aris) has a decent future, although it seems no one knows his real age these days.

But the Yankees are not dumpping him. Period. Them's the facts.