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well Derek Jeter is no Alex Gonzolez but I've seen him make plenty of clutch hits, and thats enough to make me happy.

The author of that article had a answer for a response such as yours.

Here it is.

I guess I will just never understand how someone can be persuaded into thinking Derek Jeter is a Clutch Player, find out that his actual performances in Clutch situations have not been very good, and respond by dismissing that information, because it involves statistics as opposed to selective vision.

If we learn nothing else from this little exercise in futility, at least we know that the words of Tim McCarver carry a lot more weight than actual numbers when it comes to baseball. And that, my friends, is a scary, scary thought.

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well Derek Jeter is no Alex Gonzales but I've seen him make plenty of clutch hits, and thats enough to make me happy.

Yes, blackout, and that is due to a self-serving bias. This causes you to remember all of Jeter's moments of heroism and forget about the times he failed, because it protects your self-identity as a Yankee fan and Jeter supporter. But the statistics DO NOT LIE. You, of all people, a baseball statistics historian, should know this as much as anyone. Jeter's numbers in the postseason are actually WORSE than that of his regular season numbers.

In a sample size as large as Jeter's (478 AB's), you and many other Yankee fans have quite a few "big hits" to base your claims on. But looking at the big picture, 48 RBI's in all those postseason AB's ain't good.

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I take Jeter on my team any day as well but not over Beltran or Reyes.

You've just listened to to much McCarver Gainzo.

You could actually make a better case for Reyes (younger, smaller salary). But Beltran is a nice CF with decent #s and okay postseason production. Oh and a huge salary.

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You could actually make a better case for Reyes (younger, smaller salary). But Beltran is a nice CF with decent #s and okay postseason production. Oh and a huge salary.

OK post season production? He is prolific other than getting owned by Wainright on a nasty pitch which will take a little luster off his overall numbers......but he's a Superstar as I have said since day one of him arriving in NY.

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If you take away the 5-5 performance in game one, Jeter was 3-11.

Way to "set the table" in those three straight losses.

LMFAO

Take away Beltrans game 4, 3 for 3 performance, and he was 5 for 24. :roll:

Solid arguement, troll.

80 ABs, not enuff substance to warrant anything. Talk to me once he gets above 200 ABs in the postseason and is still hitting .360.

He could just as easily go 3 for his next 30 and his BA would go right down the toilet.

480 ABs is a full seasons worth. 80 ABs is nothing. Get the point?

just for the fact, Bernie is a fine postseason performer, but he didnt make the special plays on defense that Jeter has. That separates the 2 players.

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Sigh......

These are prior to 2004 but if someone can show me what Jeter did clutch wise other than game 1 of his 2006 exit,please do.

The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would seem to me to be the following:

- Runners in scoring position

- Runners in scoring position with two outs

- Close and late

The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck."

In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line? When the going gets tough and the tough get going. When the s--- hits the fan. When the men are separated from the boys. When (insert your own cliche here).

Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined...

Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357

Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375

Close and late: .176/.263/.323

Again, those numbers do not include what he did from 1996-1999. Even with that disclaimer, I think that if you are looking at the same stats I am looking at, the whole "Jeter is Clutch" theory has a David Wells-sized hole in it."Unfortunately, while Retrosheet has Jeter's complete post-season record, it does not include his numbers in "close and late" situations, or his numbers with "runners in scoring position and two outs."

Those are two situations that are obviously important when discussing whether or not someone is a "Clutch Player," so it's a little disappointing to not have those numbers. But, what Retrosheet does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position. And, unlike ESPN.com, they have those numbers for his entire, 99-game post-season career.

Here they are...

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306

Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

In his entire post-season career, a total of 99 games spread over eight seasons, Derek Jeter is a .210/.355/.306 hitter with runners in scoring position and a .245/.345/.329 hitter with men on base. Take that and add in the fact that, over the last four post-seasons, he is a .176/.263/.323 hitter in "close and late" situations, and I think it is safe to say that my sarcastic response to Jeter constantly being hailed as "Mr. Clutch" is completely justified.

Have you watched Jeter year after year in the postseason or are you just a stat dork? Cmon, get a grip.

Everybody in baseball knows Jeter is mr. Clutch in the postseason.

And those #s should at least be updated for you to present it as an arguement.

You know, I dont really give a sh#t what a mess fan has to say about Jeter or any other Yankee. I know what he's meant to this team, and he's won my team 4 WS titles, and has been an MVP of a WS.

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LMFAO

Take away Beltrans game 4, 3 for 3 performance, and he was 5 for 24. :roll:

Solid arguement, troll.

I didn't even mention Beltran in that post.

What does Beltran have to do with the fact that Captain Clutch **** the bed in three-straight losses against the Tigers?

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I didn't even mention Beltran in that post.

What does Beltran have to do with the fact that Captain Clutch **** the bed in three-straight losses against the Tigers?

Sure, you are saying you'd rather have Beltran.

I spinned your little "3 for 13" arguement after the 5 for 5, and Beltran was 5 for 24 aside from his 3 for 3, so whats the difference?

FYI, 3 for 11 is a .272 average, hardly pathetic.

I'm done with this stupid thread.

I'll take Jeters 4 WS titles and his WS MVP and smile at fans who have never seen their teams win a title.

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I didn't even mention Beltran in that post.

What does Beltran have to do with the fact that Captain Clutch **** the bed in three-straight losses against the Tigers?

Jeter was 8-16 in the ALDS vs. Detroit. All 8 hits didn't come from game 1.

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Sure, you are saying you'd rather have Beltran.

I spinned your little "3 for 13" arguement after the 5 for 5, and Beltran was 5 for 24 aside from his 3 for 3, so whats the difference?

FYI, 3 for 11 is a .272 average, hardly pathetic.

I'm done with this stupid thread.

I'll take Jeters 4 WS titles and his WS MVP and smile at fans who have never seen their teams win a title.

My point is that the only reason ANYONE would take Jeter over Beltran (aside from being a Yankees homer) is because of his so-called clutchness (which is far overblown), and his "intangibles" (which aren't nearly as important as idiots make them out to be; besides, Jeter's leadership ability is massively over-rated).

I'll take the guy with (at least) equal speed, a similiar OBP, and more power. You can have the guy that wills his team through adveristy with nothing more than his icy glare and tight ass.

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Have you watched Jeter year after year in the postseason or are you just a stat dork? Cmon, get a grip.

Everybody in baseball knows Jeter is mr. Clutch in the postseason.

And those #s should at least be updated for you to present it as an arguement.

You know, I dont really give a sh#t what a mess fan has to say about Jeter or any other Yankee. I know what he's meant to this team, and he's won my team 4 WS titles, and has been an MVP of a WS.

The author of that article had a answer for a response such as yours.

Here it is.

I guess I will just never understand how someone can be persuaded into thinking Derek Jeter is a Clutch Player, find out that his actual performances in Clutch situations have not been very good, and respond by dismissing that information, because it involves statistics as opposed to selective vision.

If we learn nothing else from this little exercise in futility, at least we know that the words of Tim McCarver carry a lot more weight than actual numbers when it comes to baseball. And that, my friends, is a scary, scary thought

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LMFAO

Take away Beltrans game 4, 3 for 3 performance, and he was 5 for 24. :roll:

Solid arguement, troll.

80 ABs, not enuff substance to warrant anything. Talk to me once he gets above 200 ABs in the postseason and is still hitting .360.

He could just as easily go 3 for his next 30 and his BA would go right down the toilet.

480 ABs is a full seasons worth. 80 ABs is nothing. Get the point?

just for the fact, Bernie is a fine postseason performer, but he didnt make the special plays on defense that Jeter has. That separates the 2 players.

Yes, but one of those 5 hits won a game. Take away jeter's 5 for 5 the Yankees still would have won game one

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Barton has gotten thouroughly destroyed in this thread. You can't look at situations through the lens of subjectivity or you will lose every debate.

LOL classic.

All I see is 2 homer mets fans picking Beltran over Jeter.

Nobody else is even talking stupid like this. Tard.

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I'm not a Mets homer.

Yeah. And I crushed your arguement "Jeter was 3 for 11 blahblahblah" so whats the difference?

You guys can take Beltran and his holy amount of 80 ABs but I'll take Jeters 4 WS titles, WS MVP, and 480 AB proven worth.

80 abs. You guys crack me up. There is more people taking Jete in this thread, even a sox fan! LOL, jf80 can live in his own world where he feels he's right in this arguement. Classic.

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You guys can take Beltran and his holy amount of 80 ABs but I'll take Jeters 4 WS titles, WS MVP, and 480 AB proven worth.

You mean those 480 AB's where Jeter only put up a measly 48 RBI's? OK, take Jeter. But tell me this, if you put Jeter in KC like Beltran, would he have won all those rings? And exactly how have Jeter's intangibles and proven worth helped the Yankees in the postseason the last 6 seasons?

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You mean those 480 AB's where Jeter only put up a measly 48 RBI's? OK, take Jeter. But tell me this, if you put Jeter in KC like Beltran, would he have won all those rings? And exactly how have Jeter's intangibles and proven worth helped the Yankees in the postseason the last 6 seasons?

You are jaded. I would take Jeter over Beltran everyday of the week.

It's kinda like the Brady/Manning argument. Who would you want on your team?

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You are jaded. I would take Jeter over Beltran everyday of the week.

It's kinda like the Brady/Manning argument. Who would you want on your team?

Beltran is nowhere NEAR as good as Manning

Manning is setting records, Beltran is playing a good CF

totally huge difference

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My point is that the only reason ANYONE would take Jeter over Beltran (aside from being a Yankees homer) is because of his so-called clutchness (which is far overblown), and his "intangibles" (which aren't nearly as important as idiots make them out to be; besides, Jeter's leadership ability is massively over-rated).

I'll take the guy with (at least) equal speed, a similiar OBP, and more power. You can have the guy that wills his team through adveristy with nothing more than his icy glare and tight ass.

I hate Jeter as much as anybody, but you have to give him his props. Yes, being in NY and winning those titles has blown him up larger then he is. He flat out sucks as a Captain. His name should never be mentioned in the same sentence with the word Captain. He is average at best at defense. He only became good when they moved him back deeper.

Troll there is nothing really wrong in your post. However, there are quite a few Yankees I want to see in a pressure situation against the Sox before Jeter.

Now, in Beltran's defense. It is not like he has being missing in action like another NY player during post season play. He has shown that he actually shows up in the post season. 25 games 11 HRs and 25 RBIs are not too bad.

Jeter is still the King, but an heir apparent might by wearing a Mets uniform and not a Yankee.

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