nj meadowlands Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 What the hell was that crap on his throwing hand last night?? It sure looked like pine tar to me. Rogers was masterful, but did he cheat? By Gene Wojciechowski ESPN.com Archive DETROIT -- Here at The North Face photo shoot, otherwise known as the 102nd World Series, you didn't know whether they were going to play Game 2 or a Grey Cup championship here. But they played Game 2, Detroit beat St. Louis, 3-1, and, oh, by the way, Tigers starter Kenny Rogers may or may not have cheated for an inning. With or without some sort of mysterious brown sludge on the inner palm of his pitching hand, Rogers was nearly unhittable. He certainly was un-scoreable. But did he get caught red- (or brown-) handed? The Baseball Tonight crew examines what substance may have been on Kenny Rogers' left hand. The Comerica Park scoreboard said it was 40 degrees, and I'm sure it was -- at noon. But at 8:23 Sunday night, when you saw mitts and mittens as Rogers delivered the first pitch, it wasn't any 40 degrees. It was Michigan vs. Ohio State cold. Even the Tiger statues lining the outside of the stadium were looking for fleece jackets. But the 41-year-old Rogers warmed the crowd of 42,533 with another masterful performance. And because of Rogers, the Tigers will arrive in St. Louis with the Series tied, 1-1. The question is, did he cheat to do it? Thanks to Fox's TV cameras, America -- and likely the Cardinals watching in the visiting clubhouse -- learned that Rogers had a brown substance just below the thumb of his left hand. The stuff was there in the first inning, when Cardinals hitters apparently noticed some of Rogers' pitches doing interesting things. Then it was gone in the second inning. Hmmm. Was it pine tar? If so, then Rogers cheated. And if he cheated, then Rogers is working on quite a r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 i hope it goes to a game 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloogy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He cheated. That was not dirt. You can clearly tell it was pine tar. More than one observer said it. He got away with washing it off and getting back on the mound. Nice going by the Umps on dropping the ball on this . He should've been thrown out of the game. I think John Kruk put it best in the baseball tonight analysis. Then the stupid lizard had to contradict him and pretty much made it out to be no big deal. Figures he would, being the piece of garbage manager he is. Then again, I wouldn't expect anything better from Rogers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He cheated. That was not dirt. You can clearly tell it was pine tar. More than one observer said it. He got away with washing it off and getting back on the mound. Nice going by the Umps on dropping the ball on this . He should've been thrown out of the game. I think John Kruk put it best in the baseball tonight analysis. Then the stupid lizard had to contradict him and pretty much made it out to be no big deal. Figures he would, being the piece of garbage manager he is. Then again, I wouldn't expect anything better from Rogers. I agree. What a complete f##king joke. Rogers pitches have never moved this well. And it wasnt "dirt" on his hand, that is for sure. Who the F keeps dirt on their hands? Eh? Complete bullsh#t. Not to mention Rogers kept feeling up the brim of his hat vs the Yankees and A's. Cheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloogy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I know LaRussa's trying to be a classy guy and all by not making a big deal out of it. That's a bunch of crap too. He should've been out there having the umpires look and see exactly what that was, and had him thrown out of the game. They let the guy go wash it off. When have you ever heard that happening ? Maybe the Yankees should've let George Brett go wash off his bat after he hit the homer off of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetCane Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I dont think this is Larussa's call. The guy definitely cheated, though. Mike and Mad dog (I dont like them but had them on in the car) had a good point, that the only reason MLB is letting him slide is to not make baseball look bad during the WS and eff up the WS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Here is a pic of the cheating SOB Yup, thats dirt! Sure is! http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2635538 "Pine tar, I'm told, can give the ball more rotation. It's useless for the fastball, but with the breaking pitches it can help with the movement and spin." -- former Cy Young winner Rick Sutcliffe ====== "The cold makes the ball so hard," Rogers said after the game. "There's no grip." ====== A former major league pitcher offered his take on what a foreign substance can do to alter a pitcher's performance. "When your hands get cold, you can't put spin on the ball, because the ball slips out of your hands," the pitcher said. "It also changes your release point. It changes the release point because the ball wants to come out of your hands sooner so it makes the ball go high, with less spin. So it's higher in the strike zone, or not even a strike, and with less movement. But once you use something that's a little stickier, like pine tar or chewing tobacco and gum, or hair gel, anything that makes your hand look sticky or feel sticky, it brings your release point back to normal. It also puts the same spin on the ball because you have a better grip. "The problem is there's different substances that don't have a color to them and also don't wear off after awhile. Because when you throw more than 10-15 pitches in an inning, certain things start to wear away, and all of a sudden you're throwing your most important pitches with your least amount of stuff." ------ Go F yourself Rogers. This guys breaking pitches never move so well, ever. Complete f##king bullsh#t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smizzy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Game 3 of the ALCS / Game 2 of the WS Looks like pine tar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloogy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I hope the Cardinals light him up like a christmas tree next time they see him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He did pitch 7 innings of one hit ball after removing the tar. This has been going on for years but I think MLB suspends him after seeing the video today. The dugout tape after the 1st inning kills any defense Rogers may have thought he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He did pitch 7 innings of one hit ball after removing the tar. This has been going on for years but I think MLB suspends him after seeing the video today. The dugout tape after the 1st inning kills any defense Rogers may have thought he had. The Cardinals should be awarded with a Game 2 victory. There is no on the fence opinion about this. People will know he cheated, and the Tigers should be given a big fat L for yesterdays game. Thanks for making baseball look like sh#t on the biggest stage, kenny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Now supposedly MLB says they did not catch hime red handed so no action will be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The Cardinals should be awarded with a Game 2 victory. There is no on the fence opinion about this. People will know he cheated, and the Tigers should be given a big fat L for yesterdays game. Thanks for making baseball look like sh#t on the biggest stage, kenny. Actually the rule is he (if caught) should be ejected from the game. Nothing about a forfiet is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Actually the rule is he (if caught) should be ejected from the game. Nothing about a forfiet is involved. Its pretty damn pathetic of a rule. The guy cheated 8 SO innings. F him, F Jim Leyland and F the Tigers. Go Cardinals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Its pretty damn pathetic of a rule. The guy cheated 8 SO innings. F him, F Jim Leyland and F the Tigers. Go Cardinals! Barton, this happens more than you even care to think. It is called gamesmanship. Stealing signs, what should happen there? This is as old as the game itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetCane Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Barton, this happens more than you even care to think. It is called gamesmanship. Stealing signs, what should happen there? This is as old as the game itself. O Rly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 O Rly? The great thing about Perry was that he didn't even need to junk the ball up after a while. He was in teh hitters heads. Same thing with Mike Scott in the '86 playoffs. The Mets were out before they stepped in the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsMan57 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He cheated. That was not dirt. You can clearly tell it was pine tar. More than one observer said it. He got away with washing it off and getting back on the mound. Nice going by the Umps on dropping the ball on this . He should've been thrown out of the game. I think John Kruk put it best in the baseball tonight analysis. Then the stupid lizard had to contradict him and pretty much made it out to be no big deal. Figures he would, being the piece of garbage manager he is. Then again, I wouldn't expect anything better from Rogers. I agree, Rogers is a cheater. When you wash dirt off your hands it comes totally off, after Roger's washed his hands he still had a stain, and if you know anything about pine tar you can wash it off once and it will remain tacky. This whole thing stinks and its amazing that 3 teams now have not jumped on this. No earned runs in 20+ innings by a career loser is a little too hard to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavrik Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Its pretty damn pathetic of a rule. The guy cheated 8 SO innings. F him, F Jim Leyland and F the Tigers. Go Cardinals! He washed his hands off after the FIRST INNING. and proceeded to throw 8 shutout innings. Not the other way around. How exactly is it that when he had nothing on his hands following the incident, the cards still couldn't hit him. If this was that big of a f'ing deal, La Russa would have made a complaint as would the umps. But they didn't. End of story. I don't care if it was elephant cum on his hands. It wasn't there after the 2nd, and it obviously didn't stop him from throwing a great game. BTW, didn't you lose a bet and are supposed to stay out of baseball forum until next season. Why don't you go back to sucking jeter off and bitching like an 8 year old why your team isn't in teh world series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsMan57 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He washed his hands off after the FIRST INNING. and proceeded to throw 8 shutout innings. Not the other way around..\ You can wash pine tar off and it will remain tacky and will still improve your grip. When you wash dirt off it comes off, Rogers still had a visible stain on his hand after washing his hands. It was pine tar, not dirt and deep down inside you know the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavrik Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 \ You can wash pine tar off and it will remain tacky and will still improve your grip. When you wash dirt off it comes off, Rogers still had a visible stain on his hand after washing his hands. It was pine tar, not dirt and deep down inside you know the truth. I'm sorry, I didn't know you or anyone else on this board was a foremost expert on all things pine tar. I'll take it from your lengthy career in teh big leagues that I can take your word for it of course. btw, a cards player was quoted after the game jokingly saying that "what pitcher doesn't use pine tar?" even if this was the case, using Barton's logic, it shouldn't matter (a la roids) because everyone's doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloogy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He did pitch 7 innings of one hit ball after removing the tar. This has been going on for years but I think MLB suspends him after seeing the video today. The dugout tape after the 1st inning kills any defense Rogers may have thought he had. The point is , he should've been removed after the 1st inning. Regardless if he pitched a no hitter or whatever without it. The umpires dropped the ball due to it being a WS game, and they are pandering to the Tigers cinderella story. Why are Tiger fans making excuses for this when he violated the rules for MLB ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsMan57 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I'm sorry, I didn't know you or anyone else on this board was a foremost expert on all things pine tar. I'll take it from your lengthy career in teh big leagues that I can take your word for it of course. btw, a cards player was quoted after the game jokingly saying that "what pitcher doesn't use pine tar?" even if this was the case, using Barton's logic, it shouldn't matter (a la roids) because everyone's doing it? You dont need to be an expert on pine tar or have a lengthy career in the big leagues to examine the numerous snap shots of roger's hand and see that it clearly wasnt dirt. Rogers complained that the cold makes it harder to grip the ball, yet his breaking balls have been breaking nastier than ever in the cold weather. I dont need to be an expert, all I have to do is use my eyes and my brain. Your last comment is totally irrelevant, ROgers cheated so he should have been thrown out of the game. MLB is covering this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The point is , he should've been removed after the 1st inning. Regardless if he pitched a no hitter or whatever without it. The umpires dropped the ball due to it being a WS game, and they are pandering to the Tigers cinderella story. Why are Tiger fans making excuses for this when he violated the rules for MLB ? Were Yankee fans outraged when an ump made incorrect ruling in the Jefferey Maier catch? Umpires "drop the ball" all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavrik Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The point is , he should've been removed after the 1st inning. Regardless if he pitched a no hitter or whatever without it. The umpires dropped the ball due to it being a WS game, and they are pandering to the Tigers cinderella story. Why are Tiger fans making excuses for this when he violated the rules for MLB ? If they have absolute 100 percent proof that it was pinetar, then fine, suspend away, but they don't. You don't get absolute proof by some shot on television, you get it from someone who is there. The umps didn't inspect his hand, and both the umpires and the umpire supervisor felt it was only dirt. You want to blame somebody? Blame them. La Russa obviously didn't feel strong enough about it to make a formal protest over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloogy Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 If they have absolute 100 percent proof that it was pinetar, then fine, suspend away, but they don't. You don't get absolute proof by some shot on television, you get it from someone who is there. The umps didn't inspect his hand, and both the umpires and the umpire supervisor felt it was only dirt. You want to blame somebody? Blame them. La Russa obviously didn't feel strong enough about it to make a formal protest over it. I agree with you. The umpires should've looked at it and thrown him out of the game. If you've played ball in any organized form, and have used pine tar you would know. The stuff doesn't come off that easily. You can scrub your hand for 15 minutes and it won't be off fully. It stains very easily too. That was most definetly pine tar. Funny how on ESPN Kruk was the only one to say that. But I do agree that the Umpires are the ones to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toon88 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 they have proof that he had the same substance, in the same spot, in all 3 series he pitched this postseason. Did he have the "clump of dirt" as he put it, in the same spot, on his pitching hand in all 3 games??? wow, that would be a remarkable coincidence! as for him going 7 more innings of shutout ball after rubbing it off. the area will remain sticky, which is all he needs to have the ball drop more than usual. Pine tar is much like sap on a tree, in the fact that if you have some on your hand, and then wipe it off, you will still have a sticky feeling to that spot for a while. That could have been the case last night. He obviously cheated in all 3 games he has pitched in the playoffs, they have video proof of it. Oh by the way, the greatest pitcher in Yankee history has admitted to scuffing the ball with his wedding ring while pitching, saying it gave him a much better drop to his off speed pitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 they have proof that he had the same substance, in the same spot, in all 3 series he pitched this postseason. Did he have the "clump of dirt" as he put it, in the same spot, on his pitching hand in all 3 games??? wow, that would be a remarkable coincidence! Gotta love SI; http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toon88 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Gotta love SI; http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.1.html excellent job by SI....those pics are from different starts in the playoffs, since he doesn't have the World Series patch on his hat in all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 He washed his hands off after the FIRST INNING. and proceeded to throw 8 shutout innings. Not the other way around. How exactly is it that when he had nothing on his hands following the incident, the cards still couldn't hit him. If this was that big of a f'ing deal, La Russa would have made a complaint as would the umps. But they didn't. End of story. I don't care if it was elephant cum on his hands. It wasn't there after the 2nd, and it obviously didn't stop him from throwing a great game. BTW, didn't you lose a bet and are supposed to stay out of baseball forum until next season. Why don't you go back to sucking jeter off and bitching like an 8 year old why your team isn't in teh world series. When you wash off dirt doesnt in come off, or does it still leave a stain? Thought so. There was still a stain on his left hand after he wiped it off (without any ump telling him so), if it was dirt, which is legal, why would he wipe it off? Huh? Huh? Yeah, get off subject. The bet doesnt start till the season starts. You are blind, truly blind. Everybody now knows he's guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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