Regarding Vilma in the 3-4

[Johnnybones]

I honestly don't understand why writers continue to make overstatements about Vilma's role in the 3-4.

For example, "Pro Bowl middle linebacker Jonathan Vilma looks pedestrian in the 3-4 alignment."

Pedestrian? He had 11 tackles and an INT on Sunday!

He's 3rd in the LEAGUE in tackles!

Okay, so he's not LEADING the league in tackles...does that make him really that much of an underperformer?

I understand it may take him some time to full blossom in the new alignment, but he's still among the leaders in the NFL.

What gives?

[Sperm Edwards]

#2 (tie) Cato June IND, Vilma, NYJ

#5 London Fletcher BUF

#6 (tie): G.Brackett IND, Barton, NYJ, Bullock TEN

Name something these teams' rush-defenses have in common.

[quietjets]

I honestly don't understand why writers continue to make overstatements about Vilma's role in the 3-4.

For example, "Pro Bowl middle linebacker Jonathan Vilma looks pedestrian in the 3-4 alignment."

Pedestrian? He had 11 tackles and an INT on Sunday!

He's 3rd in the LEAGUE in tackles!

Okay, so he's not LEADING the league in tackles...does that make him really that much of an underperformer?

I understand it may take him some time to full blossom in the new alignment, but he's still among the leaders in the NFL.

What gives?

3-4 strategy is not for statistic... Vilma without a doubt is a very good tackling machine but most of tackles are inside the box. He needs to go to outside to stop a play when olb becomes de. he struggles for most of the time.

First year to learn...

[#27TheDominator]

3-4 strategy is not for statistic... Vilma without a doubt is a very good tackling machine but most of tackles are inside the box. He needs to go to outside to stop a play when olb becomes de. he struggles for most of the time.

First year to learn...

Vilma's problem with the 3-4 isn't that he's not fast enough to cover the corner, it's that he's too small and is getting pushed around.

[Alk]

#2 (tie) Cato June IND, Vilma, NYJ

#5 London Fletcher BUF

#6 (tie): G.Brackett IND, Barton, NYJ, Bullock TEN

Name something these teams' rush-defenses have in common.

You're so objective sometimes it's frightening.

[Johnnybones]

3-4 strategy is not for statistic... Vilma without a doubt is a very good tackling machine but most of tackles are inside the box. He needs to go to outside to stop a play when olb becomes de. he struggles for most of the time.

First year to learn...

Oh he definitely has some ways to go in this defense, but even at this point, he's certainly not average.

[JetCane]

Vilma's problem with the 3-4 isn't that he's not fast enough to cover the corner, it's that he's too small and is getting pushed around.

In addition to getting moved off the ball by guards, i noticed he has sometimes overpursued, and gotten caught on the wrong side of the C.

That's a mental mistake where he is shooting a gap on Barton's side that he ordinarily would take as a MLB, but needs to not bite on it as an ILB; he flies to the action by instinct, and that is part of the learning curve.

[quietjets]

Vilma's problem with the 3-4 isn't that he's not fast enough to cover the corner, it's that he's too small and is getting pushed around.

Thats what I have said for months about Vilma being misfit but some people said i said that because i am not a Vilma fan... Very astuting.

That is why I want Patrick Willis. he is a complete linebacker who has enough to play either inside and outside.

[Sperm Edwards]

It's just that it means tackles are frequently a function of opportunity. If a RB gets past the D-line, then the LB'ers (and safeties) end up making the tackles. All of these guys can tackle. Some better than others. But unless every runner is blessed with Sanders-esque elusiveness on every play, they're going down.

Is Cato June better than Brian Urlacher? Urlacher should technically have more opportunity than Barton or Vilma being that he's the only LB playing in the middle. He doesn't b/c his d-line is taking care of business. If he were on Indy he'd have 30 more tackles than anyone. But for that one game vs Arizona he'd be in the middle of the pack. Guess what? He's still the best even if that were the case.

Individual stats mean crap on defense. Vilma & Barton have all those tackles b/c teams run it up the gut with success against us.

Also the stat "tackles" by itself doesn't say how many yards the runner gets after first contact with the defender. Show me that stat incorporated & then you've got something worth displaying.

[quietjets]

Oh he definitely has some ways to go in this defense, but even at this point, he's certainly not average.

oh yeah.. he is not average... He is superb but being misulitized in 3-4 makes him look crappy.

Lets us see how well has he been in process during the rest of his contract.

[Johnnybones]

It's just that it means tackles are frequently a function of opportunity. If a RB gets past the D-line, then the LB'ers (and safeties) end up making the tackles. All of these guys can tackle. Some better than others. But unless every runner is blessed with Sanders-esque elusiveness on every play, they're going down.

Is Cato June better than Brian Urlacher? Urlacher should technically have more opportunity than Barton or Vilma being that he's the only LB playing in the middle. He doesn't b/c his d-line is taking care of business. If he were on Indy he'd have 30 more tackles than anyone. But for that one game vs Arizona he'd be in the middle of the pack. Guess what? He's still the best even if that were the case.

Individual stats mean crap on defense. Vilma & Barton have all those tackles b/c teams run it up the gut with success against us.

Also the stat "tackles" by itself doesn't say how many yards the runner gets after first contact with the defender. Show me that stat incorporated & then you've got something worth displaying.

Fair enough.

[joewilly]

so sperm are you saying individual stats are meaningful on offense, namely running backs? don't make me call savage now

if tx has done nothing else positive in my lifetime, he has shown me the light as to how worthless stats are anyway

[JetCane]

Vilma & Barton have all those tackles b/c teams run it up the gut with success against us.

Do you mean like the way the NYJ ran it against the Lions b/c they knew they didnt have a good NT in the game?

Yeah, that.

E. Sims 9tackles 1 assist vs Jets

[#27TheDominator]

It's just that it means tackles are frequently a function of opportunity. If a RB gets past the D-line, then the LB'ers (and safeties) end up making the tackles. All of these guys can tackle. Some better than others. But unless every runner is blessed with Sanders-esque elusiveness on every play, they're going down.

Is Cato June better than Brian Urlacher? Urlacher should technically have more opportunity than Barton or Vilma being that he's the only LB playing in the middle. He doesn't b/c his d-line is taking care of business. If he were on Indy he'd have 30 more tackles than anyone. But for that one game vs Arizona he'd be in the middle of the pack. Guess what? He's still the best even if that were the case.

Individual stats mean crap on defense. Vilma & Barton have all those tackles b/c teams run it up the gut with success against us.

Also the stat "tackles" by itself doesn't say how many yards the runner gets after first contact with the defender. Show me that stat incorporated & then you've got something worth displaying.

Serious question Sperm: I thought the Magini/Belly 3-4 was supposed to have lineman occupy the Oline and let the LBs make the tackles? Wouldn't that mean that the high number of tackles by the LBs a good sign in this D?

The only thing see that I'm not crazy about with Vilma is that he usually goes around the blocker rather than take him on. Sometimes this is a problem because not only does it make a lane for the ballcarrier, but leaves the blocker free. It also makes for more downfield than up at the pont of attack. This includes FBs as well as OL.

[Sperm Edwards]

so sperm are you saying individual stats are meaningful on offense, namely running backs? don't make me call savage now

if tx has done nothing else positive in my lifetime, he has shown me the light as to how worthless stats are anyway

No. They just keep more stats for offense. More detailed ones I mean. Like yards after the catch. Dropped passes. Yards per reception. Fumbles. How many 20-yard runs someone has. They keep some on defense that no one quotes in the league-leaders too, like QB-hurries, passes-defended, etc. But they require a little more sophisticated searching, if not researching. Like tackles for loss.

How many players in the last 10 years won the rushing title or had the most receiving or passing yards & ended up with a superbowl ring? Not many.

2005 S Alexander 1880

2004 C Martin 1697

2003 J Lewis 2066

2002 R Williams 1853

2001 P Holmes 1555

2000 E James 1709

1999 E James 1553

1998 T Davis 2008

1997 B Sanders 2053

1996 B Sanders 1553

2005 S Smith 1563

2004 M Muhammad 1405

2003 T Holt 1696

2002 M Harrison 1722

2001 D Boston 1598

2000 T Holt 1635

1999 M Harrison 1663

1998 A Freeman 1424

1997 R Moore 1584

1996 I Bruce 1338

2005 T Brady 4110

2004 D Culpepper 4717

2003 P Manning 4267

2002 R Gannon 4689

2001 K Warner 4830

2000 P Manning 4413

1999 S Beuerlein 4436

1998 B Favre 4212

1997 J George 3917

1996 M Brunell 4367

Only Terrell Davis, back in '98. And the string of strong rushing years shows that, while he was great, others (Gary, Anderson, Bell) had very high success in his place b/c they run-block great out in Denver. Talented as he was, who'd remember him if he got drafted by the Cardinals instead?

It takes a team to win a superbowl. A championship team has BALANCE and that's what makes them champions. You don't have to lead the league in a sexy stat; just be good enough to move the ball on offense & stop the other team on defense.

Look, it's safe to say a 1500-yd rusher is better than a 1000-yd rusher. A team would be better off with the former rather than the latter. But there has to be balance. What did all those rushing yards get the KC Chiefs for 4 years? Nothing. What do the Colts have to show for being a top-3 offense for however many years? Nothing. It's fun during the season, but their fans are going to look back on this era as a massive wasted opportunity that doesn't come around as often as you think. You only get one shot at a team with Manning/Harrison/James & if you think it happens all the time, find a Browns fan & he'll tell you otherwise.

You have to be good ENOUGH on offense and good ENOUGH on defense and a HC who knows how to use the talent he's got. Otherwise a team just goes from year to year hoping for another passing/rushing title & watches as someone else holds up a Lombardi Trophy.

Individual player stats are comforting for people who are so used to losing that they almost accept it in "oh well" fashion. A Colts fan pointing out Manning & Harrison's yardage or Freeney's sack total. A Chiefs/Seahawks fan pointing out Priest/Alexander's TD records. A Jets fan pointing out Martin's rushing title. Giants & Chargers fans pointing out Barber & Tomlinson's gaudy total yardage #'s. They need something to replace the dissatisfaction of coming up short of true ultimate victory.

[Sperm Edwards]

Serious question Sperm: I thought the Magini/Belly 3-4 was supposed to have lineman occupy the Oline and let the LBs make the tackles? Wouldn't that mean that the high number of tackles by the LBs a good sign in this D?

The only thing see that I'm not crazy about with Vilma is that he usually goes around the blocker rather than take him on. Sometimes this is a problem because not only does it make a lane for the ballcarrier, but leaves the blocker free. It also makes for more downfield than up at the pont of attack. This includes FBs as well as OL.

True, but the problem is that the linemen aren't occupying the Oline so by the time the LB'ers make the tackle they're past the marker already. Considering the way this team looked in January & then July, I am willing to accept this as a work in progress for the year. 3-4 ILB'ers should be big enough to run up to the line & stuff the run in short-yardage. Vilma can't that's why he does what you're seeing. One could argue it's better than getting taken out of the play altogether by an OG & waiting for the SS to pick him up.

[GreenBeans]

#2 (tie) Cato June IND, Vilma, NYJ

#5 London Fletcher BUF

#6 (tie): G.Brackett IND, Barton, NYJ, Bullock TEN

Name something these teams' rush-defenses have in common.

Ooo, oo, oo, Mr. Koter - is the answer "There is no rush defenses in that list"?

[PeterNorth09]

I honestly don't understand why writers continue to make overstatements about Vilma's role in the 3-4.

For example, "Pro Bowl middle linebacker Jonathan Vilma looks pedestrian in the 3-4 alignment."

Pedestrian? He had 11 tackles and an INT on Sunday!

He's 3rd in the LEAGUE in tackles!

Okay, so he's not LEADING the league in tackles...does that make him really that much of an underperformer?

I understand it may take him some time to full blossom in the new alignment, but he's still among the leaders in the NFL.

What gives?

This isn't baseball where stats mean everything. Just because Vilma is still getting tackle stats doesn't mean he's playing well in the 3-4. Those stats don't account for all the tackles he misses as a result of having to take on Offensive Linemen who outweigh him buy a good 70-100 lbs. T

Vilma led the league in tackles last year yet no one would say he played as well in his second season as he did in his rookie year. He is 203 lbs trying to play ILB.

[quietjets]

Just head up.... 49ers give up 119 rushing yards per game and Jets give up 142 rushing yards per game.. Browns give up 144 rushing yards per game.

Jets have Vilma and Barton in top 6 in tackles whilst neither 49ers and Browns' have anyone in top 30.....

Well at least, Vilma and Barton are very reliable at tackling and stopping.

[gang_green03]

I don't think he's doing bad. I'd say he's playing average. Not the playmaker as much as he was last year, but I'm not going to say he can't play in the 3-4 until at least after next season if he doesn't show good improvement. I think he's doing ok considering he's learning a completely new system that he's not an ideal fit for without a space-eater in front of him. I think he can succeed if we can find a good or even solid NT. He's smart, athletic, and has great instincts. I have faith that he'll adapt.