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So, why are we running the 3-4 right now?


Barton
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Based on the results the first 8 games of the year, is it still "giving us the best chance to win" ??

We have 1 "3-4" player on our front 7 - kimo. And he sucks.

Mangini has been great as a HC, but he's a jacka## if he doesnt shake this defense up and seize control over the playcalling. Its complete horsesh#t to run a vanilla 3-4 defense with no nosetackle, its about the biggest recipe for disaster as there is.

Parcells was smart enuff to stick with the 4-3 his 1st year in dallas and then draft 3-4 and sign 3-4 in the offseason.

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Mangini has been great as a HC, but he's a jacka## if he doesnt shake this defense up and seize control over the playcalling.

One thing i always wanted to know, but of course dont know aside from bare speculation, is who is really responsible for the playcalling and gameplanning on each side of the ball. This applies to both the Jets and the canes. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during some of the strategy sessions.

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Parcells was smart enuff to stick with the 4-3 his 1st year in dallas and then draft 3-4 and sign 3-4 in the offseason.

Parcells ran a 4-3 year one with the Jets too. But to answer your question seriously the Jets do not have a DE that would get pressure on the QB in a 4-3 and it is harder to scheme pressure in a 4-3. In 1997 the Jets had Hugh Douglas who was in no way a LB but a good rush end.

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Sutton has never coached a 3-4 scheme, he's out of place doing it as well as the players and a lot of people don't realize that.

But Sutton's been here since Parcells. He might not have been a DC in the NFL before, but he's been involved with the 3-4.

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Based on the results the first 8 games of the year, is it still "giving us the best chance to win" ??

We have 1 "3-4" player on our front 7 - kimo. And he sucks.

Mangini has been great as a HC, but he's a jacka## if he doesnt shake this defense up and seize control over the playcalling. Its complete horsesh#t to run a vanilla 3-4 defense with no nosetackle, its about the biggest recipe for disaster as there is.

Parcells was smart enuff to stick with the 4-3 his 1st year in dallas and then draft 3-4 and sign 3-4 in the offseason.

I may agree with you but Parcells is a vet HC and Mangini is a rookie HC.

I am sticking with Mangini's decision because a first year mess up is forgiven and 2 year mess up is unforgiven.... Mangini and Jets learn as they gather some experience on 3-4 defense in real life in their first year and may be ready in 2nd year rather than Jets feature 4-3 defense in first year which could be unsuccessful and then Jets have to suffer another struggle as they learn how to play 3-4 defense in 2nd year.

It is all about timing as team. Whilst Jets are in growing pains they keep playing to win a game...

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I am sticking with Mangini's decision because a first year mess up is forgiven and 2 year mess up is unforgiven.... Mangini and Jets learn as they gather some experience on 3-4 defense in real life in their first year and may be ready in 2nd year rather than Jets feature 4-3 defense in first year which could be unsuccessful and then Jets have to suffer another struggle as they learn how to play 3-4 defense in 2nd year.

This is ultimately why I'm not killing Mangini for the 3-4 this year.

If this was a stellar 4-3 defense, we were legitimate contenders, and he THEN decided "personnel be damned - we're doing it the way I want" then he's an ass. The reality is that we had a mediocre 4-3 defense (and that was WITH Jason Ferguson/Ty Law/J.Abe) that had one statistically good season in '04 due to a similarly weak schedule that we're facing this year.

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This is ultimately why I'm not killing Mangini for the 3-4 this year.

If this was a stellar 4-3 defense, we were legitimate contenders, and he THEN decided "personnel be damned - we're doing it the way I want" then he's an ass. The reality is that we had a mediocre 4-3 defense (and that was WITH Jason Ferguson/Ty Law/J.Abe) that had one statistically good season in '04 due to a similarly weak schedule that we're facing this year.

That 2004 defense beat the Chargers on the road in the playoffs and should have beaten Roethlisberger and the Steelers at Pittsburgh. Last year's defense statistically wasn't as good but that had more to do with the fact that the offense could never stay on the field.

Mangini neglected the defensive line and it shows. He was too busy signing KVO and drafting busts that fit his scheme like Schlegel and Eric Smith. The only move him and Tanenbaum made in the off-season that made any sense regarding the D was signing Andre Dyson and it wasn't like that was a blockbuster move.

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The man obviously feels that he has schemes and defenses that win in the NFL. he is committed to those.

He simply may not have the people to fill every slot right now.

Does he abandon a scheme that he stongly believes in, and retards the development of "keepers" in the system that he knows he will ultimately want to run, for the sake of "stats"?

Football is a lot about a commitment to what you feel will work. Sometimes, it takes time to fill in the appropriate roles within a philosophy.

If this defense is still doing the same next year and 2 years from now, then you have a problem.

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why are we running 3-4?

because Mangini apparently enjoys sticking square pegs into round holes

this guy was supposed to be from the parcells/belly tree of coaching

those guys work to their players' strengths - Mangini is taking good players and making them work to their weaknesses... and this is the result.

that 3-4 base is an ugly look when you lack NT and 3-4 ILB. that's why they are getting gouged, i don't care if you replace Drob with ted washington that 1 person isn't going to occupy both guards and the center - at some point the ILB i.e. Vilma have to schuck the guards to make inside plays regardless of the nose tackle

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That 2004 defense beat the Chargers on the road in the playoffs and should have beaten Roethlisberger and the Steelers at Pittsburgh. Last year's defense statistically wasn't as good but that had more to do with the fact that the offense could never stay on the field.

Mangini neglected the defensive line and it shows. He was too busy signing KVO and drafting busts that fit his scheme like Schlegel and Eric Smith. The only move him and Tanenbaum made in the off-season that made any sense regarding the D was signing Andre Dyson and it wasn't like that was a blockbuster move.

There was this little thing that is called an "offensive line" which need a trite bit more attention

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why are we running 3-4?

because Mangini apparently enjoys sticking square pegs into round holes

this guy was supposed to be from the parcells/belly tree of coaching

those guys work to their players' strengths - Mangini is taking good players and making them work to their weaknesses... and this is the result.

that 3-4 base is an ugly look when you lack NT and 3-4 ILB. that's why they are getting gouged, i don't care if you replace Drob with ted washington that 1 person isn't going to occupy both guards and the center - at some point the ILB i.e. Vilma have to schuck the guards to make inside plays regardless of the nose tackle

Yep, this is what we are stuck with for now.

We can only hope it gets better after another off-season of re-tooling

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That 2004 defense beat the Chargers on the road in the playoffs and should have beaten Roethlisberger and the Steelers at Pittsburgh. Last year's defense statistically wasn't as good but that had more to do with the fact that the offense could never stay on the field.

Our 4-3 defense was VERY mediocre (if not bad) for 4 of the 5 years Herm ran it here. The 2004 defense, while statistically better, was overrated.

  • Gave up 24 points to Carson Palmer in his first NFL start;
  • Gave up 28 points to the then-sucky Chargers with Brees so bad he had to come out of the game.
  • Blew a 14-point lead to the Ravens, making Kyle Boller look like Joe Montana as he had the best game of his career against us.
  • After playing 75% of a good game, gave up 14 pts in the 4th Q to Pit to blow the game.The 23 points we surrendered to NE stopped there b/c they were just running the clock out with a 23-0 lead.
  • Then with the playoffs on the line gave up 32 pts to the Rams, whose year-end #19 ranking in points was only aided by scoring at will against us.

Good games:

Miami (twice) - sucky #28 ranked offense with no RB, no OL, no QB

Buf (twice) - when they were bottom-5 in scoring at the time of both games

San Fran - #30 offense in the NFL

Cleveland - #27 offense in the NFL

Arizona - #26 offense in the NFL, while starting Shaun friggin King

Houston - #21 offense in the NFL

Seattle - thanks to Alexander coughing up the ball on the goal-line.

NE (the first game) - sort of: Brady still completed 70% of his passes with no Deion Branch & no picks, plus Dillon & Faulk each averaged over 5 ypc.

And in the playoffs, SD did what all Marty Schottenhemer teams do in the playoffs: they play scared & conservative...and lose. Even still, Brees put up 320 yds & 2 TD's against us.

Roethlisburger had a terrible game & followed with another one the following week. If rattling a rookie QB is a measure of success then I guess call this a success. Plus Cowher was also tracing back to his Martyball roots.

Even with all that, this team is missing two key players that we had that year: our run-stuffer (Ferguson) and our best pass-rusher (Abraham). Both of them were in contract years in '04. So even if you want to argue that it's the "same" defense, it really isn't.

Mangini neglected the defensive line and it shows. He was too busy signing KVO and drafting busts that fit his scheme like Schlegel and Eric Smith. The only move him and Tanenbaum made in the off-season that made any sense regarding the D was signing Andre Dyson and it wasn't like that was a blockbuster move.
Agree on all of this:

KVO just happened to turn into a bust. Why? I don't know. Maybe he finally hit the wall. Pittsburgh & their fans were not happy to lose him. In hindsight, it was clearly a lousy acquisition.

Schlegel & E.Smith were terrible picks for the 3rd round. I wouldn't care if wee took them in the 6th/7th round, but this was way too early for either of them. Slow ILB's & SS's come out & are available in the 3rd round in every draft. Mauler OG's or NT's with rare size & lateral movement skills are not.

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KVO was signed with Jets to be a coaching player. He got a new contract as backup role and earned few more money if a starter. Same for Chatham and Kassell.

Schlegel was a bad pick not because he is still inactive. Smith pick was a reach. It does not matter anymore because Washington and B. Smith have impressed so far..

Yes it is bummer because FAs did not any impact on defense for us this year.

I dont think it would be any difference if Jets use young and inexperience players instead of fa signing players.

after this season, Jets will address the DL big time. If not then Mangini is a moron.. It is as simple as that.:wink:

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KVO was signed with Jets to be a coaching player. He got a new contract as backup role and earned few more money if a starter. Same for Chatham and Kassell.

Schlegel was a bad pick not because he is still inactive. Smith pick was a reach. It does not matter anymore because Washington and B. Smith have impressed so far..

Yes it is bummer because FAs did not any impact on defense for us this year.

I dont think it would be any difference if Jets use young and inexperience players instead of fa signing players.

after this season, Jets will address the DL big time. If not then Mangini is a moron.. It is as simple as that.:wink:

Agree on all fronts. Only possible exception is with NT - at this time there do not appear to be any players that would be an obvious fill for this hole. (In the draft & FA this year we passed on 5 of them this year). So if he does "not address" this position in this offseason, that may be the reason. That's a huge problem for a team whose HC is clearly going to do a 3-4 base defense come hell or high water.

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Agree on all fronts. Only possible exception is with NT - at this time there do not appear to be any players that would be an obvious fill for this hole. (In the draft & FA this year we passed on 5 of them this year). So if he does "not address" this position in this offseason, that may be the reason. That's a huge problem for a team whose HC is clearly going to do a 3-4 base defense come hell or high water.

Umm.. Jets' best excuse is Robertson is too expensive to be a minus.

Jets passed on 5 DT? I am not so sure about that. Name them please.

My assumption on those 5 DTs is Ngata, Watson, Stanley, Jolley and Smith.

Ngata could not be ended up with Jets because he was taken between Jets' 2 first round picks.. Besides, he is better off playing 4-3 T because of pentrating ability.

Watson and Jolley are either lazy and weak.

Stanley went to 6th round before Jets' selection which went to TCU coleman, CB... It is bummer because he has 2 gaps skill.

Smith went to our damn rivial team, NE in 6th round after Jets' selection. That one I cant understand what the hell did Jets think?

Overall, Nothing of them (except Ngata) is ready to take a big time job as 3-4 NT this year....

As for FA activity in DT, Jets did invite 2 or 3 including Jackson and Williams and failed to land either one for whatever reason.

Right now, Robertson and Moore have shown some improvement in handling DT job as Tui and Mosley are under training. There is no Wilfork clone last year, this year and next year draft but Jets can keep eyes on California's DT Mebane who has battled 2 and 3 men in many plays.

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Umm.. Jets' best excuse is Robertson is too expensive to be a minus.

Jets passed on 5 DT? I am not so sure about that. Name them please.

My assumption on those 5 DTs is Ngata, Watson, Stanley, Jolley and Smith.

Ngata could not be ended up with Jets because he was taken between Jets' 2 first round picks.. Besides, he is better off playing 4-3 T because of pentrating ability.

Watson and Jolley are either lazy and weak.

Stanley went to 6th round before Jets' selection which went to TCU coleman, CB... It is bummer because he has 2 gaps skill.

Smith went to our damn rivial team, NE in 6th round after Jets' selection. That one I cant understand what the hell did Jets think?

Overall, Nothing of them (except Ngata) is ready to take a big time job as 3-4 NT this year....

As for FA activity in DT, Jets did invite 2 or 3 including Jackson and Williams and failed to land either one for whatever reason.

Right now, Robertson and Moore have shown some improvement in handling DT job as Tui and Mosley are under training. There is no Wilfork clone last year, this year and next year draft but Jets can keep eyes on California's DT Mebane who has battled 2 and 3 men in many plays.

Ngata was not a reach at #4. It's who I wanted, but that's long since over. This was an OT-rich draft & didn't need to take one who plays at 288 lbs. I think Brick will be VERY good, but so will others from this draft.

The 5 players I was thinking of were Ngata & Watson in the draft; Fat Teddy (37yo), Kemoeatu, & Grady Adams in FA.

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Ngata was not a reach at #4. It's who I wanted, but that's long since over. This was an OT-rich draft & didn't need to take one who plays at 288 lbs. I think Brick will be VERY good, but so will others from this draft.

The 5 players I was thinking of were Ngata & Watson in the draft; Fat Teddy (37yo), Kemoeatu, & Grady Adams in FA.

I think you're combining Grady Jackson and Sam Adams. What a huge NT that would be :)

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"Schlegel & E.Smith were terrible picks for the 3rd round. I wouldn't care if wee took them in the 6th/7th round, but this was way too early for either of them. Slow ILB's & SS's come out & are available in the 3rd round in every draft. Mauler OG's or NT's with rare size & lateral movement skills are not."

Unfortunately this kind of thing-falling in love with a player and disregarding his real value-happens every draft. Think Brian Thomas or John Mcgraw reaches, one because of his workouts, one because of his makeup. It's clear Mangini liked their makeup, didn't consider that nobody was taking either for another 2 rounds and made those picks. It probably didn't hurt that the Jets got exactly who they wanted with their first 3 picks. Heard Bill Simmons write that teams should employ a common sense director to break the groupthink that infects team decisionmaking. It may be a crazy idea, but somebody should be the devil's advocate on draft day.

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