Shaun Ellis

[Preston Howley III]

First of all, I'm never gonna bash a guy who shows up for work everyday. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shaun Ellis has never missed a game, in seven seasons.

That's number one.

Number two, his rookie season, the Jets played alot of 34 defense, and Shaun excelled. I think Ferguson was the NT, that year.

So I don't think Ellis is, or has ever been, the problem, as far as this 34 defense controversy is concerned.

As for the Jets putrid run defense, yeah, I can't give Shaun a pass. He's been a common denominator since 2001.

I'm just so fed up with the Jets run defense. It's garbage and something drastic has to happen. Ellis would be a perrenial all-pro if he played his career on the Broncos, or the Steelers. Dewayne Robertson would be a 2nd string benchwarmer.

[jetophile]

Our Run Defense is way overrated. Hehe.

[madmike1]

I would say that ellis is the guy who needs to be replaced the least on the line...

[bitonti]

people are all focused on the players

but the system sucks

vanilla 3-4 base defense with few alternative looks - that is preseason stuff

take these same guys who are ruthlessly bashed as Jets and put them in decent systems they will be very good players.

i will say this much they need to replace Kimo, Chatham and Kassell - all guys who see too much field for all the sucking they do

[madmike1]

people are all focused on the players

but the system sucks

vanilla 3-4 base defense with few alternative looks - that is preseason stuff

take these same guys who are ruthlessly bashed as Jets and put them in decent systems they will be very good players.

i will say this much they need to replace Kimo, Chatham and Kassell - all guys who see too much field for all the sucking they do

It all starts up front. If your DLinemen don't create room you get no preassure and if you blitz you don't get there because the Oline gets to your LB's. They need 2 Dlinemen and a passrushing OLB.

[4HCrew]

Lets see Kimo Chatham and Kasselll all need to be replaced..and they were brought in to be band aids and stop the gap guys. Well in that aspect the front office made some mistakes.

[faba]

For me everyone on the defensive front has to get some share of the blame. It is just harder to determine Ellis share of the blame without looking closely throughtout games on his play.

[Scott Dierking]

people are all focused on the players

but the system sucks

vanilla 3-4 base defense with few alternative looks - that is preseason stuff

take these same guys who are ruthlessly bashed as Jets and put them in decent systems they will be very good players.

i will say this much they need to replace Kimo, Chatham and Kassell - all guys who see too much field for all the sucking they do

The "system" has been very successful at other organizations. Granted, not every "system" is the same, or the way it is utilized, but teh system has worked in other incarnations.

[joewilly]

I don't study the "d" or watch game film but someone touched on a vanilla d point. are we too basic with it cause its new? can o's spot what what we're doing a mile away or are we just gettin mauled. yes I do watch plays where drob & co get bounced back 5 yds etc. but it seems to easy for the offense to blow us outta da play

[harts724]

First of all, I'm never gonna bash a guy who shows up for work everyday. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shaun Ellis has never missed a game, in seven seasons.

That's number one.

Number two, his rookie season, the Jets played alot of 34 defense, and Shaun excelled. I think Ferguson was the NT, that year.

So I don't think Ellis is, or has ever been, the problem, as far as this 34 defense controversy is concerned.

As for the Jets putrid run defense, yeah, I can't give Shaun a pass. He's been a common denominator since 2001.

I'm just so fed up with the Jets run defense. It's garbage and something drastic has to happen. Ellis would be a perrenial all-pro if he played his career on the Broncos, or the Steelers. Dewayne Robertson would be a 2nd string benchwarmer.

IMO Shaun Ellis has always be over rated, he has never done a thing when ABE wasn`t playing next to him.

[The Big Green Douche]

IMO Shaun Ellis has always be over rated, he has never done a thing when ABE wasn`t playing next to him.

Quite the opposite, Ellis was at his best when Abe wasnt on the field. That being said, he is waayyy overrated and overpaid, outside of two plays against the colts, he has been invisible for the last two years.

[bitonti]

The "system" has been very successful at other organizations. Granted, not every "system" is the same, or the way it is utilized, but teh system has worked in other incarnations.

i agree but this isn't belly's 3-4

belly's system involves players at every position switching and features versatile front seven looks - with the belly 3-4 you don't know whether they are gonna come at the offense with a 4-3, 5-2, or even 2 down line men and multiple d-backs - these guys don't do that, they play a vanilla 3-4, sometimes a 4-3 over look and thats about it.

Maybe Mangini feels he doesn't have the right players - but in general this defense is alot like the Brad Smith package on offense - alot of potential but assuming they have exciting plays they hardly never flex out of the base.

[Scott Dierking]

i agree but this isn't belly's 3-4

belly's system involves players at every position switching and features versatile front seven looks - with the belly 3-4 you don't know whether they are gonna come at the offense with a 4-3, 5-2, or even 2 down line men and multiple d-backs - these guys don't do that, they play a vanilla 3-4, sometimes a 4-3 over look and thats about it.

Maybe Mangini feels he doesn't have the right players - but in general this defense is alot like the Brad Smith package on offense - alot of potential but assuming they have exciting plays they hardly never flex out of the base.

Bit I believe you are right. They don't have the players.

BUT, he is looking to build the disciplines of the defense for the players that are going to be here, and then slide his other players in.

It is a risky proposition. But one that he appears married to.

[joewilly]

Bit I believe you are right. They don't have the players.

BUT, he is looking to build the disciplines of the defense for the players that are going to be here, and then slide his other players in.

It is a risky proposition. But one that he appears married to.

ya know, i'm not faulting him for that either. hail to the 3-4.

I am amazed that the improvement from week 1 is so miniscule

[James Hasty]

Lets see Kimo Chatham and Kasselll all need to be replaced..and they were brought in to be band aids and stop the gap guys. Well in that aspect the front office made some mistakes.

Don't forget Hobson, he was invisible last week.

[bitonti]

Don't forget Hobson, he was invisible last week.

another brain buster - the Jets have a tough oversized OLB who lacks the speed to keep outside contain and a quick undersized ILB who lacks the size to shuck blockers

hmm....i only wonder how long it's gonna take the braintrust to figure out the right move...

[harts724]

Quite the opposite, Ellis was at his best when Abe wasnt on the field. That being said, he is waayyy overrated and overpaid, outside of two plays against the colts, he has been invisible for the last two years.

I suggest you go back and look @ the stats ellis is a complete dog when abe wasn`t playing

[Ten]

I suggest you go back and look @ the stats ellis is a complete dog when abe wasn`t playing

In 04 Ellis had 6 and a half sacks,2 fumbles forced and a fumble recovered in the 6 games that Abe didn't play,he had 6 sacks in the 10 games that Abe didn't play in 03.

Sure Ellis's best stretch of games(first 6 games in 03) came with Abe playing on the otherside,but to suggest that he is a complete dog without Abe is complete dog ****.

I haven't had the time to watch all the games in detail,in the fact the only game i've been able to study is the Titans game and the first quarter and a half of the fins game,but in both games Ellis played well.So far the fins game he's been really digging in and standing his ground,i have a feeling Thomas's strong performance against the fins can be attributed to Ellis being a rock.

[LionelRichie]

ellis is a good player, avg. to above avg. the problem is that he is paid like a superstar and doesn't play like one.

[Preston Howley III]

IMO Shaun Ellis has always be over rated, he has never done a thing when ABE wasn`t playing next to him.

What does John Abraham have to do with the current porous run D? What did he ever do against the run, when he was here?

Why would you even bring that sack o' sht up?

[harts724]

What does John Abraham have to do with the current porous run D? What did he ever do against the run, when he was here?

Why would you even bring that sack o' sht up?

I brought him up because w/o him ellis would not have gotten the contract he had gotten. Ellis will always be just an average player and thats way I brought abe into the conversation. AND I DO AGREE THAT ABE IS A PIECE OF SH*T

[harts724]

and for saying he would be a perennial all pro is a f**king joke. perennial all-pros should be difference makers something ellis has never been and never will be

[Preston Howley III]

and for saying he would be a perennial all pro is a f**king joke. perennial all-pros should be difference makers something ellis has never been and never will be

Look, the run D has sucked since at least 2001 (with the exception of 2004, and as Sperm Edwards demonstrated statistically in another post, even that year was smoke and mirrors). In 2001 and 2002, it was all layed at Mo Lewis' and Marvin Jones' feet. We replaced them with superstar Jon Vilma, and now it's back on the D-line, and the "system".

I'm tired of the scapegoats. The 4 constants have been Ellis, Robertson, Thomas, and Hobson. Thats over half the front 7. Throw in Vilma, who's been here 3 seasons, and you got 5 guys who can't stop the run. The coaches change, the scheme changes, but those 5 guys are always the constants.

The dilemma is, you can't replace 5 starters in one clean swoop (because of salary cap and contract implications).

I really don't know "who" the problem is. It's very frustrating. I do know this-

John Abraham was not the solution. Good riddance to one flat tire, at least.

[harts724]

Look, the run D has sucked since at least 2001 (with the exception of 2004, and as Sperm Edwards demonstrated statistically in another post, even that year was smoke and mirrors). In 2001 and 2002, it was all layed at Mo Lewis' and Marvin Jones' feet. We replaced them with superstar Jon Vilma, and now it's back on the D-line, and the "system".

I'm tired of the scapegoats. The 4 constants have been Ellis, Robertson, Thomas, and Hobson. Thats over half the front 7. Throw in Vilma, who's been here 3 seasons, and you got 5 guys who can't stop the run. The coaches change, the scheme changes, but those 5 guys are always the constants.

The dilemma is, you can't replace 5 starters in one clean swoop (because of salary cap and contract implications).

I really don't know "who" the problem is. It's very frustrating. I do know this-

John Abraham was not the solution. Good riddance to one flat tire, at least.

I agree with you 100%

[#27TheDominator]

Look, the run D has sucked since at least 2001 (with the exception of 2004, and as Sperm Edwards demonstrated statistically in another post, even that year was smoke and mirrors). In 2001 and 2002, it was all layed at Mo Lewis' and Marvin Jones' feet. We replaced them with superstar Jon Vilma, and now it's back on the D-line, and the "system".

I'm tired of the scapegoats. The 4 constants have been Ellis, Robertson, Thomas, and Hobson. Thats over half the front 7. Throw in Vilma, who's been here 3 seasons, and you got 5 guys who can't stop the run. The coaches change, the scheme changes, but those 5 guys are always the constants.

The dilemma is, you can't replace 5 starters in one clean swoop (because of salary cap and contract implications).

I really don't know "who" the problem is. It's very frustrating. I do know this-

John Abraham was not the solution. Good riddance to one flat tire, at least.

You're counting Thomas as a constant? The guy barely got on the field before last year. The problem isn't necessarily the system OR the players. It's this system with these players. Mo and Marvin would have been fine in this system, but they sucked when they had to drop back and cover space and WRs in the zone. Aaron Glenn a great cover corner couldn't tackle, so they dumped him. Now we need that so we go out and get Dyson. The problem is that every time you do one of these overhauls valuable players get dumped for 10 cents on the dollar and it takes 3-5 years to get it right. By then the coach has moved on or ownership has soured on the process. The team 100% sucked last year so Mangini gets a pass and a chance to bring in his system and his players. Trouble is that from what I read on here there is no magic solution to the NT problem. No FA, no draft pick. Monsanto Pope weighs 300 lbs, could he have been a legit member of the rotation? If not, you have to ask yourself what the FO was thinking.

[gang_green03]

You're counting Thomas as a constant? The guy barely got on the field before last year. The problem isn't necessarily the system OR the players. It's this system with these players. Mo and Marvin would have been fine in this system, but they sucked when they had to drop back and cover space and WRs in the zone. Aaron Glenn a great cover corner couldn't tackle, so they dumped him. Now we need that so we go out and get Dyson. The problem is that every time you do one of these overhauls valuable players get dumped for 10 cents on the dollar and it takes 3-5 years to get it right. By then the coach has moved on or ownership has soured on the process. The team 100% sucked last year so Mangini gets a pass and a chance to bring in his system and his players. Trouble is that from what I read on here there is no magic solution to the NT problem. No FA, no draft pick. Monsanto Pope weighs 300 lbs, could he have been a legit member of the rotation? If not, you have to ask yourself what the FO was thinking.

There aren't any FA but there are some in the draft that could do it:

Amobi Akoye - is already a great run-stuffer and will get bigger cause he will only be 20 when he's drafted

Alan Branch - if he declares maybe, but he might be more of a Richard Seymour type though since he'd be tall for the position

Frank Okam - if he declares he could potentially fit the position

There's more that aren't well known like Tank Tyler and others who I can't remember.

On the team already:

Tui - showed promise in the short time he was in there and has ideal size for the position

CJ Mosely - can develop into the position with time

Sione Pouha - was going to be the NT before he got injured and plays with good strength and has solid bulk

There's not really a textbook player in the draft or on our team but you don't have to weigh 350lbs to play nose. More important is commanding a double team and strength. Ideally, they should be around 6'1 and 320 or so, but its more about strength and having a run-stuffing mentality than it is about just being fat and taking up space.

[#27TheDominator]

There aren't any FA but there are some in the draft that could do it:

Amobi Akoye - is already a great run-stuffer and will get bigger cause he will only be 20 when he's drafted

Alan Branch - if he declares maybe, but he might be more of a Richard Seymour type though since he'd be tall for the position

Frank Okam - if he declares he could potentially fit the position

There's more that aren't well known like Tank Tyler and others who I can't remember.

On the team already:

Tui - showed promise in the short time he was in there and has ideal size for the position

CJ Mosely - can develop into the position with time

Sione Pouha - was going to be the NT before he got injured and plays with good strength and has solid bulk

There's not really a textbook player in the draft or on our team but you don't have to weigh 350lbs to play nose. More important is commanding a double team and strength. Ideally, they should be around 6'1 and 320 or so, but its more about strength and having a run-stuffing mentality than it is about just being fat and taking up space.

I'm no expert on the '07 draft at this point, but others that supposedly are are not that high on any of those guys, especially as NTs. A guy being 20 when he is drafted is no longer a plus. We need help NOW, not another guy that needs to pack on weight like D'Brick and Thomas. If you are ready to accept Mosely who can't even make the active squad with this bunch of stiffs, more power to you. I am not. Pouha has shown me nothing. Absolutely not one thing since he got here. I'm not ready to play him either. Tui actually looked good, but if that's what we have to count on? I'm not loving it. That's a spot where there should have been major competition and we had basically nothing after DRob coming into the season.

[gang_green03]

I'm no expert on the '07 draft at this point, but others that supposedly are are not that high on any of those guys, especially as NTs. A guy being 20 when he is drafted is no longer a plus. We need help NOW, not another guy that needs to pack on weight like D'Brick and Thomas. If you are ready to accept Mosely who can't even make the active squad with this bunch of stiffs, more power to you. I am not. Pouha has shown me nothing. Absolutely not one thing since he got here. I'm not ready to play him either. Tui actually looked good, but if that's what we have to count on? I'm not loving it. That's a spot where there should have been major competition and we had basically nothing after DRob coming into the season.

True but I mentioned him only because he's supposedly already good against the run right now and I said the fact that he's so young and will only get bigger is an added bonus. Also, I believe he already has some experience in the 3-4 as a NT. I think people get a little to caught up in the "prototypical" player for the position. I've read varying opinions on whether some of these players (specifically Branch) can play NT and some of them, while not textbook examples, have the ability to do it.

BTW, I like Branch a lot because I think he can play anywhere on the line so if he can't handle the NT position he can still be a beastly 3-4 DE. Like I said I think he can be similar to Seymour and that means he can move all over the line.

[GM]

I suggest you go back and look @ the stats ellis is a complete dog when abe wasn`t playing

Ellis without Abe:

2002: Wk. 9: 3 tackles, 1 forced fumble

2003: Wk. 6: 3 tackles, 2 sacks

- Wk. 9-17: 37 tackles, 3.5 sacks

2004: Wk. 2: 4 tackles, .5 sacks, 1 pass defended

- Wk. 14-17: 15 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 1 PD

Looks like he fared well to me...

[The Big Green Douche]

Ellis without Abe:

2002: Wk. 9: 3 tackles, 1 forced fumble

2003: Wk. 6: 3 tackles, 2 sacks

- Wk. 9-17: 37 tackles, 3.5 sacks

2004: Wk. 2: 4 tackles, .5 sacks, 1 pass defended

- Wk. 14-17: 15 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 1 PD

Looks like he fared well to me...

Nice research, i knew we were right on this one. Too bad these stats dont bleed into this year.

[harts724]

Ellis without Abe:

2002: Wk. 9: 3 tackles, 1 forced fumble

2003: Wk. 6: 3 tackles, 2 sacks

- Wk. 9-17: 37 tackles, 3.5 sacks

2004: Wk. 2: 4 tackles, .5 sacks, 1 pass defended

- Wk. 14-17: 15 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 1 PD

2003 FROM (11/02-12/28) 3.5 SACKS IN 9 GAMES

2004 FROM (12/12-12/26) 3.5 SACKS IN 3 GAMES NOT 6.5

NOW IF YOU THINK IS IS WORTH 15 MILLION IN BONUS MONEY YOUR CRAZY...I`LL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME HE`S AVERAGE.

[JetCane]

No one is saying he isnt overpaid.

But the posted stats seem to refute this:

IMO Shaun Ellis has always be over rated, he has never done a thing when ABE wasn`t playing next to him.

[harts724]

No one is saying he isnt overpaid.

But the posted stats seem to refute this:

BULL SH*T IT DOES, THOSE STATS PROVE ELLIS IS AVERAGE THATS MY POINT . IF YOU THINK THOSE STATS ARE ACCEPTABLE FOR SOMEONE MAKING THAT KIND OF MONEY,THEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT! HIS STATS ARE OK ,THATS IT !! JUST OK!!

[Preston Howley III]

I stand behind my statement that Shaun Ellis would be a perrenial all-pro if he was in Denver or Pittsburgh.

[harts724]

We agree to disagree. GO JETS!