An interesting trend in the league, why Pennington CAN be benched

[Boozer76]

Here's some interesting food for thought. Kurt Warner was pulled for Eli Manning while the Giants were right in the middle of the playoff hunt. Warner was not playing great, but certainly not terrible. He had a better QB rating than Penny. The Giants were 5-4 at that point. He was also pulled for Leinart with just as good a QB rating as Penny with the Cards.

Leftwich has been benched for Garrard. While the Jags officially cite an injury, it's pretty well known that they are giving Garrard a chance to win the job. Consequentially, they also did not jump the gun and give Leftwich a contract extension yet, Leftwich is a FA in 2007. They may not do it at all. Leftwich currently has a QB rating of 79. Jax record is 4-3, 3-3 when Leftwich was benched.

Jake Plummer is having a pretty rough year, with a QB rating of 65. The Broncs are 5-2. There are considerable sources that feel Cutler will be starting this year despite the fact they are right in the playoff hunt.

Brad Johnson might be puller for (gasp!!) Brooks Bollinger. The Vikes are 4-3.

Brunell is coming very close to being yanked for Campbell. his QB rating is 90 and WAS record is 2-5. They aren't doing well, but considering the NFC East's best is 5-2 with a very tough schedule, they are still possibly in it. Gibbs hates going with young QB's but still is likely to make the switch.

SD had a very good QB in Brees who is now tearing it up for NO. They opted to go with the unknown factor in Rivers and haven't missed a beat. In fact they might be better off.

So what's my point? How can we sit there and say that Pennington is irreplaceable? Pennington is not playing very well at all lately. He's had 2 absolute stinkers in the last 4 games with 2 ok games. We know his limitations, and history has proven that those limitations tend to rear their ugly head at the worst of times. We drafted Clemens in the 2nd round. That's pretty darn high to just have the guy sitting around for nothing. I'm not proclaiming that he will be a great QB. Hell, I don't know if he'll even be good at all. But we need to start looking elsewhere right now for the sake of the future of this team. Chad is what he is, a decent QB who can beat bad teams, plays half decent against average teams, and for the most part gets clobbered against good team. I like the guy. He's got heart and you can't help but wish him well, but there comes a point where you must put your empathy for a player aside and do what is best for the team in the long run. Nobody, whether you support Chad or not, can say definitively that Chad is capable of being a SB caliber QB in the future. With that type of uncertainty surrounding the guy, it only makes sense to try and work out your other options.

[Barton]

Great post.

If we're 4-6 in 3 weeks, Clemens must start the final 6 games.

[serphnx]

Pretty much echoes my thoughts, but has good evidence to back it up. Great post.

I might even suggest we don't even wait 2 weeks, if after the first half Pennington has shown he isn't the answer, I think it's time to let Clemens in. Mangini should use the bye week to give Clemens and Ramsey reps. I don't think Ramsey is the answer but he might be an okay backup if Clemens is.

[JetCane]

At this point in the season, i think the CS is still thinking in terms of who gives us the best chance to win. At 4-4 they arent out of it. Last week people started using the "P" word, and one week later, it's bench the QB.

Oy

(nod to gg)

[Boozer76]

At this point in the season, i think the CS is still thinking in terms of who gives us the best chance to win. At 4-4 they arent out of it. Last week people started using the "P" word, and one week later, it's bench the QB.

Oy

(nod to gg)

The only way I used the P word was in the terms of beating EVERY team we should beat. We SHOULD have beaten CLE. As bad as the D played, they only allowed 20 points. Considering CLE has the worst D in the league, you'd think a capable QB would win the game. Now we have lost to at least one team that by all accounts we should have beaten. That means we have to beat NE, CHI, or MIN AND not lose to any of the remaining teams we should beat. After seeing how he played against CLE, I'm not even convinced that Chad can win all the games against the teams we should beat, much less pull out a victory against a team like NE?CHI/MIN. We are not going to the playoffs. We need to give Clemens a chance to get gametime experience now so he can at least have a fair competition in preseason next year and give us a shot to shore the future of this team up.

[madmike1]

Great post.

If we're 4-6 in 3 weeks, Clemens must start the final 6 games.

We'll be 4-6 if Joe Montana was our QB. Thats just blatent Chad bashing.

Chad is gonna be the starting QB for this team as long as he's healthy. Get over it.

[Boozer76]

We'll be 4-6 if Joe Montana was our QB. Thats just blatent Chad bashing.

Chad is gonna be the starting QB for this team as long as he's healthy. Get over it.

He's not healthy. He hasn't been healthy since 2002. That's the problem. His arm has not recovered from the 2 torn cuffs because it never will recover. That kind of damage to your shoulder never gets better, so healthy for him is actually never going to be 100%. He is a limited QB. He is physically limited and at times he is mentally limited. Not in the sense that he isn't smart enough to understand the position, but in the sense that when he makes a mistake he clams up. That is a mental issue. When he's getting slapped around you can see it all over his face. He has a totally different demeanor about him on the field. Pennington has never finisghed strong in a game where he was struggling early on.

[madmike1]

Pennington has never finisghed strong in a game where he was struggling early on.

And if the refs don't COMPLETELY SCREW US. We're talking about that great throw to Baker all week.

[PatsFanTX]

Here's some interesting food for thought. Kurt Warner was pulled for Eli Manning while the Giants were right in the middle of the playoff hunt. Warner was not playing great, but certainly not terrible. He had a better QB rating than Penny. The Giants were 5-4 at that point. He was also pulled for Leinart with just as good a QB rating as Penny with the Cards.

Leftwich has been benched for Garrard. While the Jags officially cite an injury, it's pretty well known that they are giving Garrard a chance to win the job. Consequentially, they also did not jump the gun and give Leftwich a contract extension yet, Leftwich is a FA in 2007. They may not do it at all. Leftwich currently has a QB rating of 79. Jax record is 4-3, 3-3 when Leftwich was benched.

Jake Plummer is having a pretty rough year, with a QB rating of 65. The Broncs are 5-2. There are considerable sources that feel Cutler will be starting this year despite the fact they are right in the playoff hunt.

Brad Johnson might be puller for (gasp!!) Brooks Bollinger. The Vikes are 4-3.

Brunell is coming very close to being yanked for Campbell. his QB rating is 90 and WAS record is 2-5. They aren't doing well, but considering the NFC East's best is 5-2 with a very tough schedule, they are still possibly in it. Gibbs hates going with young QB's but still is likely to make the switch.

SD had a very good QB in Brees who is now tearing it up for NO. They opted to go with the unknown factor in Rivers and haven't missed a beat. In fact they might be better off.

So what's my point? How can we sit there and say that Pennington is irreplaceable? Pennington is not playing very well at all lately. He's had 2 absolute stinkers in the last 4 games with 2 ok games. We know his limitations, and history has proven that those limitations tend to rear their ugly head at the worst of times. We drafted Clemens in the 2nd round. That's pretty darn high to just have the guy sitting around for nothing. I'm not proclaiming that he will be a great QB. Hell, I don't know if he'll even be good at all. But we need to start looking elsewhere right now for the sake of the future of this team. Chad is what he is, a decent QB who can beat bad teams, plays half decent against average teams, and for the most part gets clobbered against good team. I like the guy. He's got heart and you can't help but wish him well, but there comes a point where you must put your empathy for a player aside and do what is best for the team in the long run. Nobody, whether you support Chad or not, can say definitively that Chad is capable of being a SB caliber QB in the future. With that type of uncertainty surrounding the guy, it only makes sense to try and work out your other options.

I thought YJF was MIA on this board?

[Boozer76]

And if the refs don't COMPLETELY SCREW US. We're talking about that great throw to Baker all week.

No we're not. We're talking about the great catch that Baker made. Pennington had a defender in his face, he threw that ball blind to a spot where he knew a receiver was going to. He threw it to the area of the guy who likely wasn't double covered, which would definately have been Baker. Baker had to make a Marvin Harrison type effort to hand onto that ball. And BTW, that catch was only to tie the game. If the game went into overtime and we win the toss, what makes you think Chad was going to score on the first drive? He hadn't done so all game. And given that our D was struggling, we likely would have lost in OT if CLE got the ball first.

[Boozer76]

I thought YJF was MIA on this board?

Whewn you have multiple examples to support your argument, sometimes the post tends to get a bit long.

[madmike1]

No we're not. We're talking about the great catch that Baker made. Pennington had a defender in his face, he threw that ball blind to a spot where he knew a receiver was going to. He threw it to the area of the guy who likely wasn't double covered, which would definately have been Baker. Baker had to make a Marvin Harrison type effort to hand onto that ball. And BTW, that catch was only to tie the game. If the game went into overtime and we win the toss, what makes you think Chad was going to score on the first drive? He hadn't done so all game. And given that our D was struggling, we likely would have lost in OT if CLE got the ball first.

This just shows how bias are you against Chad. If Tom Brady or Manning made a gutsy throw like that on a 4th down after avioding preassure and putting the ball where ONLY his TE could get the ball you'd be saying how great they were but because it's Chad you're gonna still bash him.

[spjets]

This just shows how bias are you against Chad. If Tom Brady or Manning made a gutsy throw like that on a 4th down after avioding preassure and putting the ball where ONLY his TE could get the ball you'd be saying how great they were but because it's Chad you're gonna still bash him.

DING DING DING....100% correct..

[The Troll]

We'll be 4-6 if Joe Montana was our QB. Thats just blatent Chad bashing.

Chad is gonna be the starting QB for this team as long as he's healthy. Get over it.

Are you kidding me?

You think Joe Cool would have laid an egg against the ****ing Browns?

[Boozer76]

This just shows how bias are you against Chad. If Tom Brady or Manning made a gutsy throw like that on a 4th down after avioding preassure and putting the ball where ONLY his TE could get the ball you'd be saying how great they were but because it's Chad you're gonna still bash him.

Dude seriously, do you think I don't like Chad as a person or something? What bias are you talking about? Do you think I'd have a bias against him if I felt he was a capable QB? Pennington has not improved one ounce since he has been a starting QB. Not one. He has never, nor is he ever going to, carry this team on his back alone. he is much more comparable to Dilfer or Johnson than he is to even Delhomme or Hasselbeck. We would need to have a historic D to win with him. Do you have any idea how long it takes to build a D like that?

Look at the youtube in the other thread on Baker's catch. Pennington threw that ball off his back foot with nothing on it with a defender's hands right in his face. At the moment of his release Baker was covered well by #94. It was a prayer.

[GreenBeans]

Great post.

If we're 4-6 in 3 weeks, Clemens must start the final 6 games.

With all due respect, that is not the correct course of action. Let Clemens sit and learn the offense and stop trying to rush the kid. QB's take time to develop, let him have that time while Pennington is healthy. Clemens, if I'm Mangini, sits until game 12 and only then gets some garbage time if the team is either up or down big. Next season he gets a real look in TC. Patience.....

[Boozer76]

With all due respect, that is not the correct course of action. Let Clemens sit and learn the offense and stop trying to rush the kid. QB's take time to develop, let him have that time while Pennington is healthy. Clemens, if I'm Mangini, sits until game 12 and only then gets some garbage time if the team is either up or down big. Next season he gets a real look in TC. Patience.....

We're not rushing the kid in the thought that he'll play better than Pennington right now, it's for the fact that it gives him experience to play better next year and subsequent years after that. Do you think Philip rivers was outplaying Brees last year in SD in training camp and practices? Most likely not, but they still let Brees go in the offseason. Do you think Garrard is doing better in practice than Leftwich? Campbell over Brunell? Leinart over Warner? Cutler over Plummer? The kid should get some experience so he can get acclimated to game speed. That way it isn't such a shock for him next year.

[PFSIKH]

With all due respect, that is not the correct course of action. Let Clemens sit and learn the offense and stop trying to rush the kid. QB's take time to develop, let him have that time while Pennington is healthy. Clemens, if I'm Mangini, sits until game 12 and only then gets some garbage time if the team is either up or down big. Next season he gets a real look in TC. Patience.....

GB

Clemens is your QB of the future. Why wait?

Let Chad get pounded by New England and Chicago.

Give Clemens the nod for the final 6. Not exactly a daunting task.

Texans, Green Bay, Jills, Minnesota, Phins and Raiders

Next year, the AFC East has the AFC North and NFC East, plus the Jets are looking at Jacksonville and San Diego. Clemens needs to cut his teeth now so he is not learning on the go against a harder schedule.

[spjets]

i agree..i like chad alot and hope he plays great and continues to be our QB..BUT..if he craps the bed against the PATS and BEARS...im all for CLEMENS to play..

Clemens is your QB of the future. Why wait?

Let Chad get pounded by New England and Chicago.

Give Clemens the nod for the final 6. Not exactly a daunting task.

Texans, Green Bay, Jills, Minnesota, Phins and Raiders

Next year, the AFC East has the AFC North and NFC East, plus the Jets are looking at Jacksonville and San Diego. Clemens needs to cut his teeth now so he is not learning on the go against a harder schedule.

[gang_green03]

GB

Clemens is your QB of the future. Why wait?

Let Chad get pounded by New England and Chicago.

Give Clemens the nod for the final 6. Not exactly a daunting task.

Texans, Green Bay, Jills, Minnesota, Phins and Raiders

Next year, the AFC East has the AFC North and NFC East, plus the Jets are looking at Jacksonville and San Diego. Clemens needs to cut his teeth now so he is not learning on the go against a harder schedule.

You make a good point. Unless we pull some kind of upset or Chad plays well this would probably be the best course of action to take. See what the kids got against some weak defenses mixed in with some above average defenses.

[docdhc]

Chad made a great play on that Baker pass. He avoided the rush, made a good decision and a great throw but unfortunately the ref blew the call. That being said, he missed several big plays that would have changed the course of that game. The most glaring was when he had Coles wide open over the top of the corner and underneath the safety at the Cleveland 7 yard line but badly overthrew it. That illustrates the problem, he has been very inconsistent since the first two great games he had at the start of the season. That was once his great strenth, his accuracy and consistency. If he doesn't have that then he doesn't have a chance to overcome his weak arm and other deficiencies. In my opinion, the Jets should be assessing whether they have a QB that can develop into a championship QB, not one that can just make them competitive. If Chad doesn't perform well against NE and Chicago, two top flight defenses, it suggests that he will never be able to reach the level of play required to win big playoff games. At that point, if Tangini thinks that Clemens can some day be a franchise QB, its time to play him. Squeaking into a wild card spot doesn't really do the team much good anyway, and it makes their schedule tougher next year too. Therefore IMO, if the offense stinks the next two games, bench the 30 year old QB who has reached his ceiling, and put in the kid and see what we have.

[Maxman]

We'll be 4-6 if Joe Montana was our QB. Thats just blatent Chad bashing.

Chad is gonna be the starting QB for this team as long as he's healthy. Get over it.

Montana is really old. I would play Bolinger before I got Montana at this point.

[Maxman]

Chad gets the next 3 at least imo. They are going to have rough games against NE and Chi. Give him Houston as well. He has earned it. If he doesn't play well though I have no problem going to Clemens to see what he is all about.

[serphnx]

Chad gets the next 3 at least imo. They are going to have rough games against NE and Chi. Give him Houston as well. He has earned it. If he doesn't play well though I have no problem going to Clemens to see what he is all about.

As I said in another thread, If Chad puts up the same performance against the Patriots and Bears that he had against the Browns, I don't care if they're good defenses, he has to be benched. He has to show SOMETHING in order to keep his starting job. We can't just give our starting QB a free pass against good teams, and heck against bad teams every other week as well. Everyone is entitled to a bad game here or there, but to make the excuse that he should be able to have 3 bad games in a row is stretching it imo. We need a QB that has a chance against the great Ds. I don't expect him to go out there and throw for 300 yards and 3 TDs against those two teams, but at the least I'd like to see maybe 180 yards passing and 1 TD, and 1 INT instead of more than that. That's not a very good game, but that's sort of the minimum you expect out of your starting QB in the NFL, no matter what the defense is.

[Biggs]

I go back and forth on this. Pennington is a top 10 QB in smarts and bottom 10 in ability, basically a decent NFL QB in a very mediocre QB environment. You still have to play guys based on the depth chart. If Clemens or Ramsey are showing something in practice that they might be better that's a reason to make a move. If you have some blowouts either way you can put them in or if the season is out of controll and you want to take a look at Clemens in more than a blowout win or lose okay.

I really don't like Pennington that much but Ramsey is clearly no better and I think Clemens is a shrimp who is going to have a tough time being a top flight NFL QB.

At least if the Jets build a team that resembles the 85 Bears around him, Pennington can probably win a SB. Clemens and Ramsey probably can't. Hopefully Mangini builds the 85 Bears around Pennington by the end of training camp next year.

[gang_green03]

Exactly, we can't just chalk up a loss everytime we play a good defense. A franchise QB has to make plays against good defenses. The team shouldn't have to overcome the QB everytime they play a good defense. The point is to win a superbowl and that means you'll have to beat good defenses from time to time. Chad needs to play well against some good defenses or else whats the point? We'll have to beat a good team eventually. He has 2 more games to show something or else we need to see what Clemens has got.

[gang_green03]

I go back and forth on this. Pennington is a top 10 QB in smarts and bottom 10 in ability, basically a decent NFL QB in a very mediocre QB environment. You still have to play guys based on the depth chart. If Clemens or Ramsey are showing something in practice that they might be better that's a reason to make a move. If you have some blowouts either way you can put them in or if the season is out of controll and you want to take a look at Clemens in more than a blowout win or lose okay.

I really don't like Pennington that much but Ramsey is clearly no better and I think Clemens is a shrimp who is going to have a tough time being a top flight NFL QB.

At least if the Jets build a team that resembles the 85 Bears around him, Pennington can probably win a SB. Clemens and Ramsey probably can't. Hopefully Mangini builds the 85 Bears around Pennington by the end of training camp next year.

Its way to unrealistic to think like that. You can't just bank on building an all-time defense to mask the deficiencies of your QB. There's a reason those defenses don't come around very often, they're extremely hard to build and require a little luck as well. Everything else has to be perfect to, you need a great RB and a monster o-line. Is it to much to ask for our starting QB to play well against a good defense?

[JetCane]

Boozer, you really are all over the place on this thread.

The only way I used the P word was in the terms of beating EVERY team we should beat. We SHOULD have beaten CLE. ...

We are not going to the playoffs. We need to give Clemens a chance to get gametime experience now so he can at least have a fair competition in preseason next year and give us a shot to shore the future of this team up.

So the jets didnt beat one team you thought they should have beaten, and now you want to change the script? That makes no sense at 4-4.

Now that you seem to have accepted the fact of no playoffs, it's okay to throw a rookie in against the Pats and the Bears? Talk about a shock (which you mentioned not wanting to shock him in another post on this thread).

We're talking about the great catch that Baker made. Pennington had a defender in his face, he threw that ball blind to a spot where he knew a receiver was going to. He threw it to the area of the guy who likely wasn't double covered, which would definately have been Baker. Baker had to make a Marvin Harrison type effort to hand onto that ball. And BTW, that catch was only to tie the game. If the game went into overtime and we win the toss, what makes you think Chad was going to score on the first drive? He hadn't done so all game. And given that our D was struggling, we likely would have lost in OT if CLE got the ball first.

When Montana threw the ball to a "spot" with a guy in his face, it was "The Catch" and he had nothing to do with it, either? CP threw it to a guy who wasnt double-covered? You better check the tape, there were two guys on him, and the ball had touch so that only Baker could catch it.

Holy cow, maybe you do have a bias against CP.

You, in your confused mind have ruled out the Jets winning in OT? Have you forgotten where all the momentum was in the 4th quarter. Your work on this thread has a lot of holes in it.

ps I think we'll see Clemens start the oakland game. Maybe the Minny game if they want to give him a start on the road.

[Barton]

I love hearing how the Jets need to build the 85 bears defense for Chad to win a SB. Thats the mark of a good QB, sure is! What a f'n handicap.

If that ever happens, and it wont, Chad will be 35 and out of the league.

I got news for ya. I guaran F'ing T you that the Jets do not win 8 games this year if Chad starts all 16. Its not happening. We arent beating NE or Chicago, and we'll lose to either the texans or packers

[TaborJet]

And BTW, that catch was only to tie the game. If the game went into overtime and we win the toss, what makes you think Chad was going to score on the first drive? He hadn't done so all game. And given that our D was struggling, we likely would have lost in OT if CLE got the ball first.

The nightmare of the 86 playoffs came to mind. We probably would have lost 23-20 in double OT.

[serphnx]

I really don't like Pennington that much but Ramsey is clearly no better and I think Clemens is a shrimp who is going to have a tough time being a top flight NFL QB.

Kellen Clemens is 6'2. Joe Montana was 6'2. Didn't seem to hurt Montana too much. Granted it'll be tough to be a top flight QB in the NFL, but at least Clemens has the opportunity to reach that level, Pennington simply does not. His game smarts are fully developed, so it's not like Pennington is going to get better, his physical ability just holds him back too much.

On the Baker non-TD that should have been a TD: Montana would either have gotten it done on one of the 3 possible drives before that drive that Pennington failed on, would have gotten it in 3rd down, or failing that, wouldn't have thrown a duck that took 7 seconds to get there, instead, Montana would have thrown a pass that took maybe 3.5 seconds to get there, thus there would not have been a force out, both feet would have been in already. The difference at this level is the matter of seconds, or even parts of a second, so to claim Montana or another QB couldn't have made a better throw to me is facetious. That ball was in the air for an awfully long time, you just knew a defender would get there by then.

[docdhc]

Lets not put Joe Montana and Chad in the same sentence. Pro bowls, MVP's, Super Bowl championships, they all go with only one of those 2 QB's.

[GreenBeans]

We're not rushing the kid in the thought that he'll play better than Pennington right now, it's for the fact that it gives him experience to play better next year and subsequent years after that. Do you think Philip rivers was outplaying Brees last year in SD in training camp and practices? Most likely not, but they still let Brees go in the offseason. Do you think Garrard is doing better in practice than Leftwich? Campbell over Brunell? Leinart over Warner? Cutler over Plummer? The kid should get some experience so he can get acclimated to game speed. That way it isn't such a shock for him next year.

My guess, and this is just a guess, is that Clemens is not practicing better than Pennington right now and therefore Pennington is your starter until he is. As far as the QB's you listed, the only one playing/who played as a rookie is Leinart and he's looked like sh!t overall so far. He's already developing bad habits as a matter of fact - he's growing a nice set of happy feet. Cutler is not going to play this year unless Plummer gets hurt IMO. Denver's defense is going to be the squad winning games for them even if Cutler plays. Give Clemens some garbage time snaps if they're available, but do not rush the kid into the starting lineup - unless of course he's ready. There has been no indication, however, that he is.

GB

Clemens is your QB of the future. Why wait?

Let Chad get pounded by New England and Chicago.

Give Clemens the nod for the final 6. Not exactly a daunting task.

Texans, Green Bay, Jills, Minnesota, Phins and Raiders

Next year, the AFC East has the AFC North and NFC East, plus the Jets are looking at Jacksonville and San Diego. Clemens needs to cut his teeth now so he is not learning on the go against a harder schedule.

Why wait you ask? Because I'm not real sure that everyone is as lucky as BB was in having Brady be as good as he was as a rookie. He's the exception in that case, not the rule. I'd rather keep Pennington as the starter and would prefer to see Ramsey before Clemens until mid December, if at all. I'm old fashioned that way I guess.

[Boozer76]

Boozer, you really are all over the place on this thread.

So the jets didnt beat one team you thought they should have beaten, and now you want to change the script? That makes no sense at 4-4.

\

Chad has shown nothing in thew way of improvement at all. He is the same QB he was last year pre-injury, and the year before that. He's not that good. I think we can do better. hopefully Clemens is that guy. Keeping Chad as the QB simply because you don't think we can do better is the same mentality of keeping Herm around. If I told you in the middle of the season last year that Mangini wads the guy to replace him you would have said I was nuts. Do you still feel that way?

Now that you seem to have accepted the fact of no playoffs, it's okay to throw a rookie in against the Pats and the Bears? Talk about a shock (which you mentioned not wanting to shock him in another post on this thread).

I said nothing about not shocking him, you're putting words in my mouth. What I said was it is better to give him game experience now so it is not such a shock to him next year. It takes a while to get acclimated to NFL game speed coming out of college. Wshy not give that experience to Clemens now as opposed to waiting until next year?

When Montana threw the ball to a "spot" with a guy in his face, it was "The Catch" and he had nothing to do with it, either? CP threw it to a guy who wasnt double-covered? You better check the tape, there were two guys on him, and the ball had touch so that only Baker could catch it. Holy cow, maybe you do have a bias against CP.

That play is called "the catch" for a reason. It was a hell of alot better catch than it was a throw. Same for Pennington. And seriously, do you think a QB is going to try and throw a ball that ONLY his receiver might make a catch on 4th down at the end of a game? An incomplete pass is unacceptable in that situation, so you put the ball in play and hope your guy comes down with it. You don't pinpoint it to only one spot where your receiver has to make a 1 in 10 chance of catching it. He threw the ball up in the air inbounds towards the spot where his receiver should be. It wasn't a bad throw, but don't sit there acting like he threaded a needle.

Oh, check the tape yourself. The only guy covering baker was #94. The safety came all the way from the other side of the field. The only reason he got there on time is because the ball hung up in the air, which quite frankly it had to. He couldn't thow it on a line because he had to jump ibn the air to get it over the defender in his face's hands. I never said it was a bad throw, i'm just pointing out that it certainly wasn't some kind of miraculous throw that only top notch QB's can make.

You, in your confused mind have ruled out the Jets winning in OT? Have you forgotten where all the momentum was in the 4th quarter. Your work on this thread has a lot of holes in it.

ps I think we'll see Clemens start the oakland game. Maybe the Minny game if they want to give him a start on the road.

My confused mind? Getting a little testy now aren't you? 3 straight drives Pennington had an opportunity to tie the game and failed. He was WAY off target on most of his throws. We didn't necessarily have the momentum, we just finally managed to slow down CLE's offense. Other than Miller's KO return, we still weren't doing squat on O. What had a better chance in OT, our D finally caving in again or Pennington actually waking up?

Hey man, I get it. Because I'm not sympathetic to Chad's injuries or maybe because i don't take into account the fact that he's a standup guy and acts like the consumate pro, I must be biased. In my opinion you can keep your nice guy QB with his courage. Personally speaking my love for the Jets goes far beyond my consideration for Pennington. I understand that you, madmike and a few others would rather roll the dice on the feel good story that Pennington might actually improve at some point in his career because he's such a nice guy. Or perhaps you're completely content with his level of play thus far in his career. I just feel there's an aweful lot of room for improvement, and my love for the TEAM takes precedence. just as my love for the TEAM was the drving force behind my wanting to replace herm for the last 2 years.

[Barton]

You know, just to point this out.

Chad Penningtons arms strength severely hinders our WRs from getting YACs on screens, or running backs on dumpoffs. If his arm was stronger and got the ball there a split second faster like a normal QB, our WRs would be getting at least 2 more yards, maybe breaking some tackles for even bigger gains

.

Just wanted to point that out.