AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 ESPN insider reports that the Sox have offered Matsuzuka 8 mil per season. Is that a reasonable offer for a guy they paid 51 mil just to talk to? IMO...no discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 ESPN insider reports that the Sox have offered Matsuzuka 8 mil per season. Is that a reasonable offer for a guy they paid 51 mil just to talk to? IMO...no discuss Yes. Pavano made 8 million last year based on one decent season and Florida and assumeed career potential. Matsuzuka had a good WBC performance and has done pretty good in the Japanese league. Can anyone say with certainty he is can't miss? No. He should not be pulling Moose and Schilling money yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 The 51M is not his money. It is the Japanese team's money. But only if he signs with Boston. And what an amazing surprise! The team offers low and the player counters high. They probably fall into the 12M a year area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 Yes. Pavano made 8 million last year based on one decent season and Florida and assumeed career potential. Matsuzuka had a good WBC performance and has done pretty good in the Japanese league. Can anyone say with certainty he is can't miss? No. He should not be pulling Moose and Schilling money yet. How is it that any team in MLB can say with a straight face that one of the "best pitchers on the planet" is worth 8 mil per season when Ted Lilly is looking to get in the 10-12 range? Anything less than 12 mil per season is a joke of an offer to any pitcher who is expected to be a 27 y/o lights out #1 starter. How many 27 y/o #1 starters make $8 mil per year in FA? If there are any, his agent should be fired. IMO the Sox should do everything it takes to deal Manny ASAP and then give this guy what he's worth on the open market. 15 mil per season and see what he's got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 1 of 2 things are happening here: A. The Red Sox are VERY VERY VERY ****ing studid if they think they can bid $51.1 million to negotiate for a guy and then give him just $8 a year. What are they nuts? Morons. You almost have to give a guy $15 million a year at that rate. B. They did this just to make sure the Yankees wouldn't get him because if a deal is not reached their $$ is returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 The 51M is not his money. It is the Japanese team's money. But only if he signs with Boston. . I realize that. The point I was making was that they are "willing" to pay 51 million to talk to the guy regardless of who gets it. Who pays that kind of money to get a pitcher who deserves to be paid like a #3 or #4 starter? If you want an $8 mil per year starter, save yourself the $51 million and sign Randy Wolf. A payment of 51 mil tells you that he is regarded as a #1 starter and no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 doesn't matsuzaka have one of the really big name agents? boras i think? no way they get away with paying him 8 mill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 doesn't matsuzaka have one of the really big name agents? boras i think? no way they get away with paying him 8 mill The leverage portion of this deal was getting negotaiting rights. Now all leverage is removed. His old club doesn't want him back and he has no other suitors. The ONLY leverage that he has is length of contract. The Red Sox can dicker as much as they want to, depending on how they truly feel about the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 hahaha you think his old club wouldn't mind having the best pitcher in their league back another year? its a win win for them, they're a business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toon88 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 The leverage portion of this deal was getting negotaiting rights. Now all leverage is removed. His old club doesn't want him back and he has no other suitors. The ONLY leverage that he has is length of contract. The Red Sox can dicker as much as they want to, depending on how they truly feel about the player. couldn't agree more. his only options are sign with Boston or go back to Japan. the Red Sox have the leverage in this situation. Knowing his club in Japan wants the bidding fee the Red Sox put up and doesn't want to lose that, I wouldn't be shocked if they put a deal in place with Boras & Matsuzuka. Sign for the 8-10 million with Boston, and we'll give you 15 million of the 51 we're getting from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Randy ****ing Wolf just got $8 million yesterday. The Boston front office is doing a good job of making Sox fans look stupid so far this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 And what an amazing surprise! The team offers low and the player counters high. They probably fall into the 12M a year area. This sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Yes. Pavano made 8 million last year based on one decent season and Florida and assumeed career potential. Matsuzuka had a good WBC performance and has done pretty good in the Japanese league. Can anyone say with certainty he is can't miss? No. He should not be pulling Moose and Schilling money yet. Why does EVERY BOSTON FAN feel the need to defend EVERYTHING that their joke of a front office does? This is CLEARLY bad faith tactics. If you really think that 8 million per is all matsuzaka is worth in this market you are in complete denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Actually, I find it hard to believe teh stories that D Mat has no leverage. He is no fool. Neither is Boras. D Mat hires the best, toughest agent on the planet. He knows more then we do. Otherwise, why bother? Also, Boras would love to add more international clients to his stable. Getting a contract that Adam Eaton got is not the way to do it. D Mat is not taking a long term deal that will not allow him to be a FA until age 33. He also will not wait that long for his shot at a "payday". No, there is more here then meets the eye. My take is that Boras has a few things up his sleeve, that we may find out on Dec. 14th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Why does EVERY BOSTON FAN feel the need to defend EVERYTHING that their joke of a front office does? This is CLEARLY bad faith tactics. If you really think that 8 million per is all matsuzaka is worth in this market you are in complete denial. Kinda like YOU with the Yankees? The MARKET does not dictate what this pitcher is worth, the Red Sox do. The market dictated what it was worth to talk to him exclusively. You are confusing teh situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Kinda like YOU with the Yankees? The MARKET does not dictate what this pitcher is worth, the Red Sox do. The market dictated what it was worth to talk to him exclusively. You are confusing teh situation. If you read my posts you'd know i'm more then willing to get all over the yankee front office. If you think that the market dictated that matsuzaka is worth 8 million a year you have no understanding of how the baseball player market works. Boras isn't gonna bend over and take it and boston will damage themselves greatly if they don't pay him fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 If you read my posts you'd know i'm more then willing to get all over the yankee front office. If you think that the market dictated that matsuzaka is worth 8 million a year you have no understanding of how the baseball player market works. Boras isn't gonna bend over and take it and boston will damage themselves greatly if they don't pay him fairly. How will Boston be "damaged"? They get their 51 mill back? OUCH Where is MARKET dictating this players worth? The only MARKET is Boston's, there is no other. Boras doesn't have an option, other than to wait next year and possibly damage his player's position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 No leverage? --How about the ability to say "thanks Boston, but no thanks. I'll go back to Japan (I'm sure he'd find interest from somebody) and play there". --"If nobody wants me, I'll take a year off". Boras has had HS draftees looking at a 5 million dollar contracts pass up signing and go to college, with the money he'll make off of Mat he'll surely advise him to sit if it comes to that --"I'm sure that the yankees would be willing to give me the money I'm looking for. So you can pay for me now, or play against me later". Seems like at least a little leverage to me. Far from "no leverage" IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 How will Boston be "damaged"? They get their 51 mill back? OUCH Where is MARKET dictating this players worth? The only MARKET is Boston's, there is no other. Boras doesn't have an option, other than to wait next year and possibly damage his player's position SD, how is a 28 year old "ace" going to "damage his position" by either a)pitching another year in Japan or taking a year off In all reality, how many teams are going to shy away from signing a 28 y/o ace because he sat for a year? Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garb Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 I have NEVER defended this directionaless Red Sox Front Office. Their one and only agenda is to make money. I honestly beleive winning another championship is NOT the number one priority. The personnel moves they make are senseless to me. Bid HUGE money to Dice K put let Manny go for twenty cents to the dollar? Get a potentially fantastic arm, yet possibly have an outfield of Drew, Crisp and Willi Mo Pena? Get rid of Big Papi's binky and one of the best hitters I've ever seen? It would NOT shock me if the deal for Dice K falls through. Manny ends up on the west coast and the Sox finish fourth in their division next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 How will Boston be "damaged"? They get their 51 mill back? OUCH Where is MARKET dictating this players worth? The only MARKET is Boston's, there is no other. Boras doesn't have an option, other than to wait next year and possibly damage his player's position They will damage their relationship with the most powerful agent in the sport and the entire Japanese baseball league. You're wrong that boras doesn't have an option he'll be in court faster then you can say bostons bush league front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 I have NEVER defended this directionaless Red Sox Front Office. Their one and only agenda is to make money. I honestly beleive winning another championship is NOT the number one priority. The personnel moves they make are senseless to me. Bid HUGE money to Dice K put let Manny go for twenty cents to the dollar? Get a potentially fantastic arm, yet possibly have an outfield of Drew, Crisp and Willi Mo Pena? Get rid of Big Papi's binky and one of the best hitters I've ever seen? It would NOT shock me if the deal for Dice K falls through. Manny ends up on the west coast and the Sox finish fourth in their division next year. Looks like garb took reality pills this morning. Good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 They will damage their relationship with the most powerful agent in the sport and the entire Japanese baseball league. You're wrong that boras doesn't have an option he'll be in court faster then you can say bostons bush league front office. When it comes to Scott Boras there is no such thing as "damaging a relationship". With this particular negotiation sure, but in the future Boras will continue to have his players sign with the highest bidder. When it's Boston they'll sign there no matter what happens with this deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 The cubs have reportedly offered Jason Schmidt a 3 yr $44 mil deal. Clearly the Sox feel that Mat is better than Schmidt (otherwise they could have signed Schmidt and saved tens of millions of dollars) so how do they convince Boras to accept less than a player who his guy is younger and better than? If Schmidt is looking at 15 mil per season, my guess is Boras does what it takes to get his guy $15-17 mil. Could be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toon88 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 You're wrong that boras doesn't have an option he'll be in court faster then you can say bostons bush league front office. in court? for what? not getting a contract from the Sox that HE thinks is fair? Honestly, I'm not sure what he would be taking anyone to court for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 in court? for what? not getting a contract from the Sox that HE thinks is fair? Honestly, I'm not sure what he would be taking anyone to court for. Exactly what will a court do? Baseball has anti-trust examptions. You really need to think sometimes. Are you suggesting this will be the new Curt Flood exemption? How did that work out for Mr Flood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 in court? for what? not getting a contract from the Sox that HE thinks is fair? Honestly, I'm not sure what he would be taking anyone to court for. I disagree Toon. MadMike is right about this one. Boras is a savvy businessman and as I pointed out above, players who are inferior to his client are in the neighborhood of 15 mil per season. I'm sure Boston plans to increse their offer of 8 million but if it's not at least in the ball park of the other FA pitchers out there, Boras will claim that the Sox are not willing to pay him market value and are just trying to play keep away with his client. If he is the best FA pitcher out there, he should be getting at least a comprable contract to the other top pitchers. Not half of what they're getting. Unproven or not, when a team pays 51 mil for the rights to negotiate you that is openly expressing an opinion that said player is the best on the market. Add to that the fact that the owner who paid the 51 million referred to the player as "a national treasure" kind of makes it tough to say he's only worth 10 or 13 mil per season when guys like Ted Lilly could very well get the same kind of money. As I said, this should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 Exactly what will a court do? Baseball has anti-trust examptions. You really need to think sometimes. Are you suggesting this will be the new Curt Flood exemption? How did that work out for Mr Flood? Would you put it past Boras? He's got a player worth 15 mil per season. A team with exclusive rights is offering roughtly 30% less than that? I don't think it would be his first choice..but I do think he'd consider it. Personally I think that if he doesn't like the negotitaions he'll ask MLB to award Mat to the Mets, if they say no then he'll tell the kid to go back to Japan for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 SD, how is a 28 year old "ace" going to "damage his position" by either a)pitching another year in Japan or taking a year off In all reality, how many teams are going to shy away from signing a 28 y/o ace because he sat for a year? Seriously. Hios own team, which holds exclusive rights to him ,doesn't want him back. they want the $$$$. A year, in the life of a MLB player is huge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 Hios own team, which holds exclusive rights to him ,doesn't want him back. they want the $$$$. A year, in the life of a MLB player is huge They might not want him back, but they can't force him to sign either. If he doesn't sign, they're stuck with him for one more year. A year in the life is huge? So tell me, if he comes back to test the FA market next season, will all of his suitors be in the Boston ballpark of $8 mil per season for a 28 year old ace? If you ask me, I don't think it makes a bit of difference. This isn't the difference between being 39 and 40 when a guy can lose it at any second. If he truly is an elite pitcher and one of the best in the world at age 28, there's no reason to expect him to be any less than that for four of five more seasons...and then an above average pitcher for a few years after that. If he doesn't sign with Boston, we'll see if next years offers are closer to 8 mil or 15 mil. I'd put my money on 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 Another issue in regards to this negotiation is that I've heard several times that his team might "kick in some money" to make a deal happen. Now doesn't that kind of compramise the integrity of the process. I mean, if teams had known ahead of time that they could be looking at a significant rebate if the offer was high enough I'm sure there would have been some higher bids. When teams made their bids I'm sure they viewed it as a hard number, not one that could be reduced if the offer was high enough. IMO that would be worse than not negotiating in good faith. That would be two teams making it up as they go along. Before anybody tries to say that I'm a "bitter Yankee fan" just keep in mind that the Yankees were not the next highest bidder. From what I understand it was the Mets so they would be next in line if Boston were to screw up. If they're going to change the rules as they go and offer discounts on the initial offer, I think teams should be able to re-submit their bids. Hell, keep the Yankees out of it for all I care. Let it be between the two highest bidders...Mets and Sox duke it out for the guy. The team willing to part with the most cash gets the player. In the future, how about having teams submit one number. The amount of money they're willing to pay in full to acquire the player and then let the player and Japanese team negotiate how much goes to each party. That way they each know how much the other is getting and theres no way of getting around paying what you claim to be willing to pay if you're the bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 couldn't agree more. his only options are sign with Boston or go back to Japan. the Red Sox have the leverage in this situation. Knowing his club in Japan wants the bidding fee the Red Sox put up and doesn't want to lose that, I wouldn't be shocked if they put a deal in place with Boras & Matsuzuka. Sign for the 8-10 million with Boston, and we'll give you 15 million of the 51 we're getting from them. I think Buster Olney suggested the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Hios own team, which holds exclusive rights to him ,doesn't want him back. they want the $$$$. A year, in the life of a MLB player is huge A few years ago, Hochever was drafted by the Dodgers in teh 1st round of the June draft. Boras refused the Dodgers offer, and Hochever sat out a year, pitching in an Indy League. He had already lost his College eligibility. Next year, he was the #1 overall pick, by the Royals, I believe. Watch for D. Mat to do the same. Then he will be a FA after 2007, and sign for a rediculous contract. Now, his Japanese teams also knows this, so if the Bosox do not agree with Boras, they will take him back, so they can get the posting fee next year. And Boston will not be the winner next time, guaranteed. Boras is no fool. While I do expect the Bosox to sign him, it will be a lot closer to the Zito/Oswalt range, but for fewer years, then the 7-8 million range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 A few years ago, Hochever was drafted by the Dodgers in teh 1st round of the June draft. Boras refused the Dodgers offer, and Hochever sat out a year, pitching in an Indy League. He had already lost his College eligibility. Next year, he was the #1 overall pick, by the Royals, I believe. Watch for D. Mat to do the same. Then he will be a FA after 2007, and sign for a rediculous contract. Now, his Japanese teams also knows this, so if the Bosox do not agree with Boras, they will take him back, so they can get the posting fee next year. And Boston will not be the winner next time, guaranteed. Boras is no fool. While I do expect the Bosox to sign him, it will be a lot closer to the Zito/Oswalt range, but for fewer years, then the 7-8 million range. I do not think your scenario applies here mbn. In principle, the same scenario can happen, but I think the circumstances are alot differemt. I do not think it is as cut and dry as you think it is. Isn't D-Mat a FA in 2007? Meaning the team will not get any posting fee. I think they will settle somewhere in the middle, but really Boston has the leverage. Seibu cannot gurantee they willl get the same ridiculous offer and if D-Mat injures himself, especially an arm or shoulder injury, both the team and him are screwed. Boston needs to goto about 5yrs/10 million per and have Seibu kick in 2 million a year. They still get a ridiculous offer and D-Mat goes to Boston with alot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 BOSOX BID INTACT: MLB officials said yesterday that the Red Sox cannot reduce their posting fee for Matsuzaka, even if Seibu agrees to a change. A Red Sox official denied that the team was trying to lower the bid, which was the largest in baseball history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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