Are the Sox negotiating in "good faith"

[Garb]

BOSOX BID INTACT: MLB officials said yesterday that the Red Sox cannot reduce their posting fee for Matsuzaka, even if Seibu agrees to a change. A Red Sox official denied that the team was trying to lower the bid, which was the largest in baseball history.

A Red Sox Official denied that the team is trying to lower the bid. For sure! Larry Lucchino lie, or give orders to lie? Wait - the man that creates smear campaigns to lessen the blow when a player leaves? C'mon - him? Lie?

I will say it here and now. If Manny Ramirez is indeed traded, I will not set foot in Fenway this year and I will root for their demise.

http://www.keepmanny.com/

[faba]

A Red Sox Official denied that the team is trying to lower the bid. For sure! Larry Lucchino lie, or give orders to lie? Wait - the man that creates smear campaigns to lessen the blow when a player leaves? C'mon - him? Lie?

I will say it here and now. If Manny Ramirez is indeed traded, I will not set foot in Fenway this year and I will root for their demise.

http://www.keepmanny.com/

As A Met fan if Ramirez is traded it will really hurt the Bosox- they can never get equal value for him and the impact can not be made up-

[mbn007]

As A Met fan if Ramirez is traded it will really hurt the Bosox- they can never get equal value for him and the impact can not be made up-

Interesting thoght!!

Knowing Omar's professed "love" for Manny, do you think the Mets would have held off signing Alou, and traded for manny, if he was available last week?

[faba]

Interesting thoght!!

Knowing Omar's professed "love" for Manny, do you think the Mets would have held off signing Alou, and traded for manny, if he was available last week?

Right now my gut has to tell me Omar is focused on strengthening the pitching but will entertain all possibilities including Manny.

[Thor99]

Folks, it's called negotiating. The Sox know they're not going to get away with paying him 8 million a year. Boras knows he's not going to get 17 million a year.

Yankee fans like to spin anything the Sox do in a negative light. Why don't you wait to see how it all shakes out before making these grand proclamations.

BTW, I see you got Mussina for a couple of more year. Good for you.

[AFJF]

Folks, it's called negotiating. The Sox know they're not going to get away with paying him 8 million a year. Boras knows he's not going to get 17 million a year.

Yankee fans like to spin anything the Sox do in a negative light. Why don't you wait to see how it all shakes out before making these grand proclamations.

BTW, I see you got Mussina for a couple of more year. Good for you.

Do you really think it's a good idea for the Sox to be nickeldicking around when there's a deadline to get a deal done? In a regular FA negotiation I could understand the game playing but there's a locked in time frame here. As I said earlier, I expect the Sox to up their offer, but do they pay the best best pitcher on the market like he's the best pitcher on the market, or do they try to get him on the cheap? If J. Schmidt is getting offers in the 15 mil per season range, why wouldn't the Sox be expected to pay just as much if not more for a younger pitcher who they think is better than Schmidt (otherwise they would have made a run at schmidt for 51 million dollars less)

[AFJF]

Let's play hardball

Dec 6 - The Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka remain far apart in negotiations, the Boston Globe reports.

"Matsuzaka has a dream to pitch in the major leagues and he is going to fulfill that dream," agent Scott Boras told the newspaper. "The time frame of it, I can't exactly predict. He knows his skill level is one that he is going to be a major leaguer someday.

"He is going to play for a major league team. That part of it is something he has been aware of for a long time. When that time will come, I can't tell you. We are going to do our best to see how this works out."

Boras's position is that Matsuzaka should be paid in line with the game's top pitchers. The Red Sox, who posted $51.1 million for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka, disagree. If the parties cannot reach agreement by midnight Dec. 14, Matsuzaka's rights go back to his Japanese team, the Seibu Lions.

[PFSIKH]

Do you really think it's a good idea for the Sox to be nickeldicking around when there's a deadline to get a deal done? In a regular FA negotiation I could understand the game playing but there's a locked in time frame here. As I said earlier, I expect the Sox to up their offer, but do they pay the best best pitcher on the market like he's the best pitcher on the market, or do they try to get him on the cheap? If J. Schmidt is getting offers in the 15 mil per season range, why wouldn't the Sox be expected to pay just as much if not more for a younger pitcher who they think is better than Schmidt (otherwise they would have made a run at schmidt for 51 million dollars less)

There is a huge difference.

Schmidt has largely earned the 15 million on his 127 wins. He is a prooven commodity.

D-Mat is not. If you could say you would get a Wang type performance. Pay him 15 million per. For all you know you have another Nomo. An ok pitcher. Not a 15 million per.

Sox need to sign him to a base in the 8-10 range. Give him 500K or million dollar performance bonuses to get him upto 15 million is he performs as expected.

It is really apples and oranges. Despite the age difference, if the Dodgers had to pony up 51 million in addition to the contract to Schmidt, his numbers might be a little less.

[AFJF]

There is a huge difference.

Schmidt has largely earned the 15 million on his 127 wins. He is a prooven commodity.

D-Mat is not. If you could say you would get a Wang type performance. Pay him 15 million per. For all you know you have another Nomo. An ok pitcher. Not a 15 million per.

Sox need to sign him to a base in the 8-10 range. Give him 500K or million dollar performance bonuses to get him upto 15 million is he performs as expected.

It is really apples and oranges. Despite the age difference, if the Dodgers had to pony up 51 million in addition to the contract to Schmidt, his numbers might be a little less.

I won't argue your point, I'll just ask you this. Do you honestly believe there is any way that Scott Boras will take a pay cut to get this done? He can earn his cut of what the Sox are offering this season (last reported offer was 8 mil and nobody knows where they're at now other than "far apart"), or tell him to wait until next season and get his cut of a bigger paycheck?

[Sharrow]

If Boras can get 14 million a year from the Sox for JD Drew, then he should definitely be able to get 15 million per for Matsuzaka.

8 days before he unpacks his bags and stays in Japan?

[PFSIKH]

I won't argue your point, I'll just ask you this. Do you honestly believe there is any way that Scott Boras will take a pay cut to get this done? He can earn his cut of what the Sox are offering this season (last reported offer was 8 mil and nobody knows where they're at now other than "far apart"), or tell him to wait until next season and get his cut of a bigger paycheck?

Boras take less? That is funny.

I do not remember if the Sox ever had problems with Boras. Maybe this is a way of freezing him out. Seibu does not want to lose that money. Sox want they guy.

[madmike1]

According to ESPNNEWS

"The Red Sox not optimistic about signing Matsuzaka"

Looks like this was a block afterall.

[Blackout]

lol leave it up to boston to give up a chance at signing the best available pitcher

[mbn007]

lol leave it up to boston to give up a chance at signing the best available pitcher

Don't believe any of this stuff until the deadline passes. Then the sparks will fly if the Bosox really did not sign him.

[GimmeShelter]

Don't believe any of this stuff until the deadline passes. Then the sparks will fly if the Bosox really did not sign him.

He'll sign and for the Sox price. If he goes back he wouldn't be eligible to be a free agent until after 2008, not next season. [url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php]

[AFJF]

He'll sign and for the Sox price. If he goes back he wouldn't be eligible to be a free agent until after 2008, not next season. [url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php]

Not to be a smartass GS but why are you the only one reporting this. Every legit news agency I've read has clearly stated that he would return to Japan for one season. I'm not saying you've got it wrong, I"m just saying you're the first person I recall seeing this from.

In addition, I don't get the posting system. IMO, if the Sox don't sign the guy the Mets should get negotiating rights. What's the harm in saying "alright, the Sox didn't get it done so the next highest bidder gets an opportunity to get it right"

[GimmeShelter]

Not to be a smartass GS but why are you the only one reporting this. Every legit news agency I've read has clearly stated that he would return to Japan for one season. I'm not saying you've got it wrong, I"m just saying you're the first person I recall seeing this from.

In addition, I don't get the posting system. IMO, if the Sox don't sign the guy the Mets should get negotiating rights. What's the harm in saying "alright, the Sox didn't get it done so the next highest bidder gets an opportunity to get it right"

I totally agree with you AirForce that the bidding/negotiating rights system is flawed.

Baseball Prospectus reported the 2 years left on his Japan contract....they are usually credible.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5753

[AFJF]

I totally agree with you AirForce that the bidding/negotiating rights system is flawed.

Baseball Prospectus reported the 2 years left on his Japan contract....they are usually credible.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5753

If baseball prospectus is right, is there anything stopping Seibu from posting him again next season? If a deal with the Sox doesn't happen, I seriously doubt they'd fall for the same trick again. I would guess somebody would win his posting rights next year because it would give Seibu one more chance to get a fat check instead of losing him for nothing the following season.

[GimmeShelter]

If baseball prospectus is right, is there anything stopping Seibu from posting him again next season? If a deal with the Sox doesn't happen, I seriously doubt they'd fall for the same trick again. I would guess somebody would win his posting rights next year because it would give Seibu one more chance to get a fat check instead of losing him for nothing the following season.

Not sure but if it ever came to him going back this year I think MLB will rethink the posting rules as someone could simply bid 100 mill and not sign him again.

[AFJF]

Not sure but if it ever came to him going back this year I think MLB will rethink the posting rules as someone could simply bid 100 mill and not sign him again.

This would be a whole different angle but do the rights have to go to the highest bidder, or the bidder that Sebiu accepts the offer from? I have a hard time beliveing MLB would force them to deal with the Sox again if they make another bogus offer if the Mets are the next highest bidder. I would think Seibu would have the right to say "we accept the Mets' offer, not the Sox" and negotiate with the Mets.

[PFSIKH]

Not to be a smartass GS but why are you the only one reporting this. Every legit news agency I've read has clearly stated that he would return to Japan for one season. I'm not saying you've got it wrong, I"m just saying you're the first person I recall seeing this from.

In addition, I don't get the posting system. IMO, if the Sox don't sign the guy the Mets should get negotiating rights. What's the harm in saying "alright, the Sox didn't get it done so the next highest bidder gets an opportunity to get it right"

That would open a pandora's box.

That would allow teams in conjunction with agents to steer players to teams of their choosing. Think the Japanese wants to earn less? What would happen if a small team outbid everyone. Think an agent is going to let his player goto Pittsburgh when a NY team, Chicago team, LA team or Boston is right below them. No chance in hell.

The system is far from perfect, but that might be worse.

[AFJF]

That would open a pandora's box.

That would allow teams in conjunction with agents to steer players to teams of their choosing. Think the Japanese wants to earn less? What would happen if a small team outbid everyone. Think an agent is going to let his player goto Pittsburgh when a NY team, Chicago team, LA team or Boston is right below them. No chance in hell.

The system is far from perfect, but that might be worse.

Pick your poison. Establish a system where teams can post a bogus bid with no intention of signing the player which is essentially wasting the time of all parties who are actually interested in completing a transaction. I'd prefer runing the risk of teams "being steered" then having a player not even come to the US because teams are just playing games with make believe offers.

[PFSIKH]

Pick your poison. Establish a system where teams can post a bogus bid with no intention of signing the player which is essentially wasting the time of all parties who are actually interested in completing a transaction. I'd prefer runing the risk of teams "being steered" then having a player not even come to the US because teams are just playing games with make believe offers.

Neither system is the answer obviously.

Maybe if MLB could institute a draft where our teams would hold his rights and have the option to sign or sell his rights to the highest bidder.

[AFJF]

Dealings would need 'abrupt change' to beat deadlineESPN.com news services

After all the hoopla surrounding the $51.1 million bid the Red Sox posted to talk to Daisuke Matsuzaka, it appears a contract may not materialize.

Matsuzaka

Boston essentially needs to get the Matsuzaka agreement done by Tuesday night so they can get him in Wednesday for a physical prior to the Thursday deadllne. One GM Friday said "it would be a shame for Matsuzaka and baseball to hold him out to try to force a change in the posting system." Boras has a very strong relationship with Theo Epstein, but he is willing to hold out players when necessary, such as Boston's current catcher and right fielder.

Will it get done? No one knows. But one can assume that the Red Sox are a far better team with Matsuzaka than without him, although he has never thrown a pitch in the AL East.

Negotiations between the team and the Japanese star pitcher have nearly broken down, the Boston Herald reported Sunday. A source familiar with the situation told the Herald late Saturday that unless "there is an abrupt change of course," the Red Sox will not strike a deal with Matsuzaka before the deadline midnight Thursday.

Attempts to reach Matsuzaka's agent, Scott Boras, were unsuccessful. The source blamed Boras for a lack of interest in the negotiations.

Matsuzaka signed with Boras in October and was posted for bidding in early November.

Matsuzaka was 17-5 with a 2.13 ERA and 200 strikeouts for his Japanese team, the Seibu Lions, this year. He throws in the high-90s, has good off-speed pitches and is known for his deceptive "gyroball," which has been likened to a screwball.

The Lions will not receive any of the $51.1 million if Matsuzaka does not sign. The initial offer made by the Red Sox was believed to be between $7-8 million a year for four-six years, but Boras was reportedly asking for nearly $15 million a year.

Though the Herald's source admitted that there is time for the outlook to change, as of Saturday night the team and Matsuzaka weren't close to finding a common ground.

[AFJF]

If the Sox are still offering $8 mil then this was clearly a bogus move. Not a huge deal though. The guy will be a FA next season and then there will be more legit offers then. This could be posturing by the Sox to get Boras to come down from his demands of $15 mil but if Boston keeps trying to sign a #1 pitcher for #4 money then it's clear what the real goal was for the Sox. I for one expect them to offer a bit more but according to Gammons it's not looking good.

[Barton]

If the Sox are still offering $8 mil then this was clearly a bogus move. Not a huge deal though. The guy will be a FA next season and then there will be more legit offers then. This could be posturing by the Sox to get Boras to come down from his demands of $15 mil but if Boston keeps trying to sign a #1 pitcher for #4 money then it's clear what the real goal was for the Sox. I for one expect them to offer a bit more but according to Gammons it's not looking good.

I never saw in my head "Matsuzaka pitching for the Sox", but things can change at the last second and they could strike a deal.

If they dont sign Matz, no way he goes back to Japan, something will be done by Boras in the courts. In theory, he should go to the 2nd highest bidder, the Mets, but who knows what will happen.

15 million for him is riidiculous. If that should happen, his 2nd year should be a team option lol. Its too big of a money risk for the sox it seems.

[GimmeShelter]

I never saw in my head "Matsuzaka pitching for the Sox", but things can change at the last second and they could strike a deal.

If they dont sign Matz, no way he goes back to Japan, something will be done by Boras in the courts. In theory, he should go to the 2nd highest bidder, the Mets, but who knows what will happen.

15 million for him is riidiculous. If that should happen, his 2nd year should be a team option lol. Its too big of a money risk for the sox it seems.

Petitte just got 16mill with a 2nd year PLAYER option.

Mats won't get 15 as the Sox hold all the cards but he is worth it in this years market.

[madmike1]

It's all but dead...

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171334

[Sharrow]

If he's posted again next season, will the red sox be banned from making a bid? They should be.

[CrazyCarl40]

If he's posted again next season, will the red sox be banned from making a bid? They should be.

And why exactly is that? The one who will come out looking horribly in this is Boras. He is refusing to negotiate and complaining about posting rules. He's the only one holding up this deal.

[PFSIKH]

If he's posted again next season, will the red sox be banned from making a bid? They should be.

Why?

If anything, the Japanese league is learning what an ass Boras is. They are seeing a $51.1 million bid getting flushed down the toilet because of him.

[Sharrow]

Please, you guys are being delusional. Its not Boras' fault he doesn't want his client to get screwed over. How many players would teams pay 51 million just to negotiate exclusively with? Barry Zito, Andy Pettitte, or Jason Schmidt? I doubt it. So why shouldn't he be making as much or more than them? If Schmidt is making 15+ million a year, then so should Matsuzaka if Boston is willing to pay that much just to negotiate with him. If I were him, I wouldn't take anything less than 3years/$42million. Them offering him 8 a year is an insult considering how the market has been set. You don't bid 51 million on a guy and then not pay him fair market price. If you won't sign the guy the first time you win the bid on him, you shouldn't be able to bid the second time if all you want to do is waste his time trying to lowball him.

[AFJF]

Please, you guys are being delusional. Its not Boras' fault he doesn't want his client to get screwed over. How many players would teams pay 51 million just to negotiate exclusively with? Barry Zito, Andy Pettitte, or Jason Schmidt? I doubt it. So why shouldn't he be making as much or more than them? If Schmidt is making 15+ million a year, then so should Matsuzaka if Boston is willing to pay that much just to negotiate with him. If I were him, I wouldn't take anything less than 3years/$42million. Them offering him 8 a year is an insult considering how the market has been set. You don't bid 51 million on a guy and then not pay him fair market price. If you won't sign the guy the first time you win the bid on him, you shouldn't be able to bid the second time if all you want to do is waste his time trying to lowball him.

This is what I've been saying all along Sharrow. Once a team pays that kind of money for negotiating rights, they are openly admitting that this player is the best available at his position. So there is no reason why he shouldn't be paid as such. How you offer a #1 pitcher $8 mil per season and expect him to take it is beyond me.

[#27TheDominator]

Please, you guys are being delusional. Its not Boras' fault he doesn't want his client to get screwed over. How many players would teams pay 51 million just to negotiate exclusively with? Barry Zito, Andy Pettitte, or Jason Schmidt? I doubt it. So why shouldn't he be making as much or more than them? If Schmidt is making 15+ million a year, then so should Matsuzaka if Boston is willing to pay that much just to negotiate with him. If I were him, I wouldn't take anything less than 3years/$42million. Them offering him 8 a year is an insult considering how the market has been set. You don't bid 51 million on a guy and then not pay him fair market price. If you won't sign the guy the first time you win the bid on him, you shouldn't be able to bid the second time if all you want to do is waste his time trying to lowball him.

Rational thoughts. Good thing this didn't come from a Yankee fan. Think the Yanks would rather have him or Pettitte?

[AFJF]

Rational thoughts. Good thing this didn't come from a Yankee fan. Think the Yanks would rather have him or Pettitte?

I think the Yanks would rather be out of pocket $16 mil for Pettite this season and then take a shot at signing Mat for $40-50 million out of pocket as opposed to a $30-50 mil posting fee on top of hte $40-50 mil contract.