I miss Curtis

[EM31]

Curtis gets the good guy rap for what he does off the field. Many people donate to charity. Curtis is simply a step above the rest in that regard.

As far as him being a team first player I will offer this:

-No Jet worked harder to get himself ready every off season

-No Jet played through pain the way Curtis did consistently.

Now Curtis gets blasted for the 2nd one. He should have stepped down. Told the coaches he can't play. He shouldn't have worried about the streak and sat out.

Let me ask you this? What kind of player says I can't go this week coach? John Abraham did that exact thing and we had a witch hunt looking for him on the L.I.E. Don't put fault on Curtis for Herm's stupidity.

The coach decides who plays. If Curtis at 70% isn't as good as Lamont at 100% the coach has to make that call. Not the player.

Max I don't blame him for wanting to play. I do not understand how any of this makes him a "team first" player. "Team first" implies "player 2nd" and I simply do not see where that can be shown with Curtis. Many times the interests of the player and of the team coincide. Only in the cases where they do not coinicide is it possible to measure how much of a "team first" player anyone is.

I think I have made the case in this thread that whenever the interests of Curtis diverged from the intersts of the Jets then Curtis took care of Curtis first and I have no problem with that. I have given examples of other players, stupidly or not, where they have truly made "team first" sacrifices. Just don't ask me to suck on the "Curtis is a team first player" milk cookie because it is a crock.

[Maxman]

Max I don't blame him for wanting to play. I do not understand how any of this makes him a "team first" player. "Team first" implies "player 2nd" and I simply do not see where that can be shown with Curtis. Many times the interests of the player and of the team coincide. Only in the cases where they do not coinicide is it possible to measure how much of a "team first" player anyone is.

I think I have made the case in this thread that whenever the interests of Curtis diverged from the intersts of the Jets then Curtis took care of Curtis first and I have no problem with that. I have given examples of other players, stupidly or not, where they have truly made "team first" sacrifices. Just don't ask me to suck on the "Curtis is a team first player" milk cookie because it is a crock.

Well here is where you can say he was team first (and I realized this can be debated both ways). But last year he should have just sat out. People say he played for the streak. I say he played because that is how he was wired. He was getting on the field no matter what because he felt that would help the team.

BUT -- that mentality ended his career. By playing through pain last year, he cost himself this season IMO.

I like Curtis. He is the only HOFer this team has. But I realize that ultimately it is a business for everyone. Like you said earlier, it isn't Curt's fault that Bradway overpaid him. I also realize that Curt was not playing for free.

Ultimately I just loved his approach to the game.

[Maxman]

Um, someone get that damn Marci back in here. She started this damn thread, lol.

[EM31]

For probably the FOURTH time this thread, I am only regurgitating what PLAYERS and COACHES and BILL PARCELLS said about CURTIS MARTIN the PLAYER.

NOTHING else.

If you know more than them, so be it.

Please point to where Curtis has ever subrodinated his own interests to those of the team. I have pointed to instances where he has not. I am not the one making the claim that he is eligible for "team-first: sainthood. You seem to be making that claim.

[faba]

Um, someone get that damn Marci back in here. She started this damn thread, lol.

Gallant Max sticking up for jetnation posters against all comers.

[Scott Dierking]

Please point to where Curtis has ever subrodinated his own interests to those of the team. I have pointed to instances where he has not. I am not the one making the claim that he is eligible for "team-first: sainthood. You seem to be making that claim.

Tell me where I said anything about "sainthood" and what he does outside of the team?

For teh FIFTH time this thread, I am regurgitating what PLAYERS, COACHESZ and BILL PARCELL have said about CURTIS MARTIN teh player and what he brings to his team.

I do not have access to the lockerroom to hear the extras that he does for the team, I do not have access to the huddle to see how he helps the team respond, I do not have access to his talks with players and how he helps them adjust and prepare. THOSE are the areas that I deem worthy of being selfess anbd team oriented.

The reason that I feel he contributes selflessly is precisely those arenas. WHY do I think that. Beacause the PLAYERS, COACHES and one BILL PARCELLS have told me that he is slefless in those areas (that is the sixth time).

EM-You obvioulsy know the man better than teh players and coaches as you seeem to want to indicate and know what his motivesd are. Good for you.

[EM31]

Um, someone get that damn Marci back in here. She started this damn thread, lol.

Max,

Getting yourself into great physical shape in the offseason is cool. It places you ahead of all the other guys who don't do that but it is not in and of itself evidence on a team first attitude. TO for example and Keyshawn if I remember correctly are also prolific off season workout warriors. Nobody has accused them of being team first players in my recent recollection.

Actually I take that back. The coaches including Parcells would often offer up the excuse that the players were team players and wonted to succeed for the team. I guess if Parcells said it then we can take that to the bank

Curtis does not beat his wife or girlfriend, he does not get arrested for DUI and he does not make stupid inflamotory statements to the press. All of which are good characteristics and all of which are much appreciated by the Jets organization. None of those either are evidnece of a team first attitude.

[Maxman]

Max,

Getting yourself into great physical shape in the offseason is cool. It places you ahead of all the other guys who don't do that but it is not in and of itself evidence on a team first attitude. TO for example and Keyshawn if I remember correctly are also prolific off season workout warriors. Nobody has accused them of being team first players in my recent recollection.

Actually I take that back. The coaches including Parcells would often offer up the excuse that the players were team players and wonted to succeed for the team. I guess if Parcells said it then we can take that to the bank

Curtis does not beat his wife or girlfriend, he does not get arrested for DUI and he does not make stupid inflamotory statements to the press. All of which are good characteristics and all of which are much appreciated by the Jets organization. None of those either are evidnece of a team first attitude.

What about Curtis playing hurt last year trying to help the team and ending his career in the process?

[Scott Dierking]

Actually I take that back. The coaches including Parcells would often offer up the excuse that the players were team players and wonted to succeed for the team. I guess if Parcells said it then we can take that to the bank

.

Let's just say this-I trust Bill Parcells and his evaluation over a what a team player and a selfless team player is more than someone who pretends to on an internet board.

[EM31]

Let's just say this-I trust Bill Parcells and his evaluation over a what a team player and a selfless team player is more than someone who pretends to on an internet board.

OK Scott then Keyshawn and TO also fall into that category because he (Parcells) has been on record as using the "he is a team guy" excuse for both of them when explaining some of their other behaviors. So did Donovan McNabb in defense of TO, repeatedly and to the point of tedium before they finally shipped TO out of town. Seriously, if that you bar then I suggest it is no bar at all.

[Scott Dierking]

OK Scott then Keyshawn and TO also fall into that category because he (Parcells) has been on record as using the "he is a team guy" excuse for both of them when explaining some of their other behaviors. So did Donovan McNabb in defense of TO, repeatedly and to the point of tedium before they finally shipped TO out of town. Seriously, if that you bar then I suggest it is no bar at all.

I am only talking Curtis Martin.

if you want to debate TO, Keyshawn and others-Go ahead.

But why change the topic.

[Sperm Edwards]

What about Curtis playing hurt last year trying to help the team and ending his career in the process?

He didn't think it would end his career. And the <3.0ypc he got in most of the games was hardly helping the team.

It's not like Lawrence Taylor getting 2 sacks in a game he broke his leg - after breaking it, or Favre throwing 30 TD's when he had a broken thumb on his throwing hand, or Terrell Davis getting into the endzone in the superbowl while experiencing full migraine pain and visual aura.

When he was hurt badly & played anyway (last year & early 2002 are two examples), the team suffered from this "help"he gave us.

[EM31]

What about Curtis playing hurt last year trying to help the team and ending his career in the process?

Max, what evidence do you have that Curtis was doing anything more than pursuing (at the expense of the Jets interests) his nth 1000-yard rushing year in the NFL? Certainly it looked to me for all the world like that is what was going on. Certainly it was important enough to Herman Edwards that he referenced the record in press conferences after our season was in the toilet. Clearly HE WASN"T actually helping the Jets with his on the field performances so where is the disconnect Max? Clearly we were improved when Houston finally did make it in. Clearly the organization might well have benifitted from having a longer look at Houston last year after Curtis was already injured but before the ghost of the 1000 yard season was finnaly given up upon. A well prepared organization will manage the transition from older to younger players.

As awful as the offenvie line was last year (and it was awful), Curtis was injured and playing below par. Yet he seemed to have no problem during the season allowing ALL of the blame to land on the 3rd string QB and the AWFUL offensive line. Blah blah blah, Jim Brown could not run behind THAT offensive line. Did he stand up in defense of his team mates and say, look guys, I am injured and maybe ALL of the blame does not rest on the Ofeensive line?

No, I didn't think so. But he is a team player and a stand up guy.

[Scott Dierking]

He didn't think it would end his career. And the <3.0ypc he got in most of the games was hardly helping the team.

It's not like Lawrence Taylor getting 2 sacks in a game he broke his leg - after breaking it, or Favre throwing 30 TD's when he had a broken thumb on his throwing hand, or Terrell Davis getting into the endzone in the superbowl while experiencing full migraine pain and visual aura.

When he was hurt badly & played anyway (last year & early 2002 are two examples), the team suffered from this "help"he gave us.

With that type of thinking Kirk Gibson would never have come to bat in the World Series in '88.

Sperm, how do YOU know what Curtis Matin felt and what he was told?

I love these people that give insight into what someone else was thinking and contemplating.

Hindsight is always so easy in these evaluations.

Lord how I miss what Lamont Jordan gives a team. There is a guy that is really helping his team by shutting it down all teh time. Lord, if we had that. Curtis' selfishness cost us that beaute.

[Verde]

Welcome Marci!

JetNation needs more women. I'm sure the men agree.. but for different reasons.

I don't miss Curtis running up the middle.

[Scott Dierking]

Max, what evidence do you have that Curtis was doing anything more than pursuing (at the expense of the Jets interests) his nth 1000-yard rushing year in the NFL? Certainly it looked to me for all the world like that is what was going on. Certainly it was important enough to Herman Edwards that he referenced the record in press conferences after our season was in the toilet. Clearly HE WASN"T actually helping the Jets with his on the field performances so where is the disconnect Max? Clearly we were improved when Houston finally did make it in. Clearly the organization might well have benifitted from having a longer look at Houston last year after Curtis was already injured but before the ghost of the 1000 yard season was finnaly given up upon. A well prepared organization will manage the transition from older to younger players.

As awful as the offenvie line was last year (and it was awful), Curtis was injured and playing below par. Yet he seemed to have no problem during the season allowing ALL of the blame to land on the 3rd string QB and the AWFUL offensive line. Blah blah blah, Jim Brown could not run behind THAT offensive line. Did he stand up in defense of his team mates and say, look guys, I am injured and maybe ALL of the blame does not rest on the Ofeensive line?

No, I didn't think so. But he is a team player and a stand up guy.

What did he say badly about his teammates. Please EM, validate your points with proof and facts. Please supply a quote where Curtis badmouthed his team.

Enough with the innuendo

[EM31]

I am only talking Curtis Martin.

if you want to debate TO, Keyshawn and others-Go ahead.

But why change the topic.

YOU were debating the legitimacy of using what Parcells says about a player as being proof positive that the statement is true. Why is what Parcells says truth incarnate if he is talking about Curtis but a change of subject when he says it about someone else? I was responding to YOUR claims by questioning how much weight can ever be given to those kinds of statements.

What is it that you are not following here? Should I look for smaller words?

[Scott Dierking]

YOU were debating the legitimacy of using what Parcells says about a player as being proof positive that the statement is true. Why is what Parcells says truth incarnate if he is talking about Curtis but a change of subject when he says it about someone else? I was responding to YOUR claims by questioning how much weight can ever be given to those kinds of statements.

What is it that you are not following here? Should I look for smaller words?

EM-I can show you a littany of negative words that were uttered about those players (KJ and TO) by other coaches and players.

Can you do that with CM? Let's see them.

Again, this is a silly avenue to go down, but you want to drive down this one way street, go ahead

[EM31]

What did he say badly about his teammates. Please EM, validate your points with proof and facts. Please supply a quote where Curtis badmouthed his team.

Enough with the innuendo

Curtis knew he was injured and that it was affecting him just as it did in 2002.

The world in cluding here and all the media was Criticizing the O-Line and Brooks Bollinger for our lack of a running game... None of the blame was landing on Curtis.

What is it about his silence allowing the blame to fall 100% onto others that you are missing here. Should I use smaller words?

[Sperm Edwards]

With that type of thinking Kirk Gibson would never have come to bat in the World Series in '88.

Hardly the same thing. Gibson succeeded. If Martin had performed miraculously (as Gibson did) with such a terrible injury and brought us a championship as a result of it, then my criticism would instead be admiration. Showing up to work is not the same as accomplishing work.

[EM31]

EM-I can show you a littany of negative words that were uttered about those players (KJ and TO) by other coaches and players.

Can you do that with CM? Let's see them.

Again, this is a silly avenue to go down, but you want to drive down this one way street, go ahead

You were the one citing what Parcells says as being "good enouigh for you". Why are you bringing others into the question? Is what Parcells says "good enough for you" or is it not?

[Scott Dierking]

Hardly the same thing. Gibson succeeded. If Martin had performed miraculously (as Gibson did) with such a terrible injury and brought us a championship as a result of it, then my criticism would instead be admiration. Showing up to work is not the same as accomplishing work.

Sperm-How is a player exactly to know how well he will perform or how miracalulously he will perform if hurt?

Where is the chart on that.

Are you saying-Just play it safe if at all doubtful? THAT is the player you want in your camp?

[Gainzo]

Curtis knew he was injured and that it was affecting him just as it did in 2002.

The world in cluding here and all the media was Criticizing the O-Line and Brooks Bollinger for our lack of a running game... None of the blame was landing on Curtis.

What is it about his silence allowing the blame to fall 100% onto others that you are missing here. Should I use smaller words?

How you can hate on Curtis is beyond me. Herm ran him into the ground. He had more carries in 2004 than in his rookie year.

Curtis is the most humble pro athlete I have ever seen. He is all about the team.

[Scott Dierking]

You were the one citing what Parcells says as being "good enouigh for you". Why are you bringing others into the question? Is what Parcells says "good enough for you" or is it not?

GOOD GOD EM, are you a little dyslexic. I told you I did not want to bring any others into this, then you do and ask me to respond, and then you turn circle on me?

I said Parcells and OTHERS, and yes, it is better than an uninformed opinion, which ours are.

BVottom line

[Scott Dierking]

How you can hate on Curtis is beyond me. Herm ran him into the ground. He had more carries in 2004 than in his rookie year.

Curtis is the most humble pro athlete I have ever seen. He is all about the team.

You forget, Curtis ASKED to be run into the ground

[EM31]

How you can hate on Curtis is beyond me. Herm ran him into the ground. He had more carries in 2004 than in his rookie year.

Curtis is the most humble pro athlete I have ever seen. He is all about the team.

When did he decide to get the surgury last year Gainzo? Just about the time that 1000 yards became impossible and WAY after his week 2 or week 3 injury.

[Scott Dierking]

When did he decide to get the surgury last year Gainzo? Just about the time that 1000 yards became impossible and WAY after his week 2 or week 3 injury.

Actually, at the rate he was rushing, if he finished 2005, he would have hadf a 1,000 yards.

But, why allow the facts to pollute your opinion, they havent anywhere else in this thread?

[EM31]

You forget, Curtis ASKED to be run into the ground

Every year in in preseason. EVERY DARNED year as regualr as clockwork we could be counted on to hear tthree things out of the Curtis spin machine.

1) All those steps he ran in the offseason

2) That Curtis THRIVES on more carries. One a heavier workload. After all, Curtis wears down defenses and finally overpowers them in the 4th quarter. Curtis was forever lobbying for more carries enen though he led the league in most years and even though he lead the league by a massive amount in terms of the percentage of rrunning plays given to the starter over the backup.

3) That Curtis was the most well conditioned athlete in the NFL and that what may be true for others in terms of overwork was not true in the case of Curtis becasue he was so well conditioned.

EVERY DARNED year we heard the same sh1t. In fact, in 2003 he blamed his early 2002 injury and lack of effectiveness on a lack of work in training camp and preseason. He even demanded the majority of carries in those games too. So Yes, he very explicitly demanded that he be used in that way. What planet were you on that you missed that?

[Gainzo]

When did he decide to get the surgury last year Gainzo? Just about the time that 1000 yards became impossible and WAY after his week 2 or week 3 injury.

That is a legit point, but I can't see Curtis putting personal goals over team goals. Over his career he has always done what the coaching staff wanted him to do.

IMO he is the ultimate team guy.

[Scott Dierking]

Every year in in preseason. EVERY DARNED year as regualr as clockwork we could be counted on to hear tthree things out of the Curtis spin machine.

1) All those steps he ran in the offseason

2) That Curtis THRIVES on more carries. One a heavier workload. After all, Curtis wears down defenses and finally overpowers them in the 4th quarter. Curtis was forever lobbying for more carries enen though he led the league in most years and even though he lead the league by a massive amount in terms of the percentage

3) That Curtis was the most well conditioned athlete in the NFL and that what may be true for others in terms of overwork was not true in the case of Curtis.

EVERY DARNED year we heard the same sh1t. In fact, in 2003 he blamed hi early injury on a lack of work in training camp an preseason. He even demanded the mojority of caries in those games. So Yes, he very explicitly demanaded that he be used in that way. What planet were you on that you missed that?

Yeah, even in teh damn pre-season he wanted the ball. What a glory hog

[SouthernJet]

But last year he should have just sat out. People say he played for the streak. I say he played because that is how he was wired. He was getting on the field no matter what because he felt that would help the team.

.

agree,, CM was the kind of warrior that NEEDED a HC to have the sense to see when it wasnt there and to sit him.

Too bad Herm wasnt WIRED for thinking.

[Scott Dierking]

agree,, CM was the kind of warrior that NEEDED a HC to have the sense to see when it wasnt there and to sit him.

Too bad Herm wasnt WIRED for thinking.

I can agree with that. That is a fair point.

[EM31]

I occurs to me that this conversation has taken place before. It also occurs to me that the OP is withing her rights to miss Curtis and far be it from me to tell someone else what they should feel.

I shall therefore withdraw.

[Bugg]

What about Curtis playing hurt last year trying to help the team and ending his career in the process?

Martin played hurt in order to hunt that 1000-yards each season streak like Ahab hunting the whale. And that imbecile Edwards had no problem with it. With a healthy Houston around and a season that was over in October, it made no freaking sense at all. Who ever the Jets GM was going to be should have had a larger sample of Houston to evaluate. And somewhere between idiot Herm and selfless Martin we had people looking out for number one ratehr tha n the best thing for the Jets franchise.

And Martin did much the same thing in 2003 with Jordan.

[Maxman]

Martin played hurt in order to hunt that 1000-yards each season streak like Ahab hunting the whale. And that imbecile Edwards had no problem with it. With a healthy Houston around and a season that was over in October, it made no freaking sense at all. Who ever the Jets GM was going to be should have had a larger sample of Houston to evaluate. And somewhere between idiot Herm and selfless Martin we had people looking out for number one ratehr tha n the best thing for the Jets franchise.

And Martin did much the same thing in 2003 with Jordan.

Bugg we won't agree on his motives. Do we agree though that regardless of his motives, it is the coaches job to sit him if he is not going to help the team?

Like I said earlier we blasted Abe for sitting. I just don't think it is fair to do the same thing to Curt. Regardless of the reason why.