I miss Curtis

[Sperm Edwards]

Hard to fault Curtis for doing what he was asked to do. You can't discount that he held up for 10 years with that workload. I agree you can make a very strong argument that we might have been able to be just as productive or more productive at a much lower cost but again that's not Curtis's fault, that's a credit to his tenacity and drive.

Fair enough. But if I could choose a player with 1 incredible season that got us to the next level instead of the guy who was good-but-not-incredible for 10, I choose the former every time. Too many Jets fans to me are happy with this card [best image I could find] from the community chest:

[Maxman]

Fair enough. But if I could choose a player with 1 incredible season that got us to the next level instead of the guy who was good-but-not-incredible for 10, I choose the former every time. Too many Jets fans to me are happy with this card [best image I could find] from the community chest:

That is just the thing. In Curtis time here, the Jets were never one player away. 1998? Curtis was still young then and that was before the Bradway contract so unless you were paying more you probably weren't getting somebody better.

[BP]

Fair enough. But if I could choose a player with 1 incredible season that got us to the next level instead of the guy who was good-but-not-incredible for 10, I choose the former every time. Too many Jets fans to me are happy with this card [best image I could find] from the community chest:

Thank you Sperm!!!!

Great explanation..and great point and post!!!

I am sooooo tired of being second fiddle with a pat on the back...I want a super bowl

[Biggs]

Fair enough. But if I could choose a player with 1 incredible season that got us to the next level instead of the guy who was good-but-not-incredible for 10, I choose the former every time. Too many Jets fans to me are happy with this card [best image I could find] from the community chest:

I agree with you which is why I think TD should ba a HOF lock and I would also take a guy like Kurt Warner and Ken Stabler over Warren Moon in a heartbeat.

[Biggs]

That is just the thing. In Curtis time here, the Jets were never one player away. 1998? Curtis was still young then and that was before the Bradway contract so unless you were paying more you probably weren't getting somebody better.

The 1998 team was the best team in football with the best QB in football except against one team at one position. The Denver Bronco's had TD and we had Curtis, that was the difference.

[Sperm Edwards]

That is just the thing. In Curtis time here, the Jets were never one player away. 1998? Curtis was still young then and that was before the Bradway contract so unless you were paying more you probably weren't getting somebody better.

Curtis was in his prime in 1998, his 4th full NFL season. And I never mentioned Bradway. Curtis was over-compensated by both GM's. Parcells was a lousy GM who frequently over-paid "his guys" as well.

[Bugg]

I agree with you which is why I think TD should ba a HOF lock and I would also take a guy like Kurt Warner and Ken Stabler over Warren Moon in a heartbeat.

Stabler's never getting ino the HoF because he didn't give his all in some games at the end. There were losses with the Saints that were beyond questionable. And this is a guy who made no secret that he partied wtih Gulf Coast gamblers his whole career and afterward. Moon deserves it because stupidity and small-mindedness probably kept him out of the NFL for the early part of his career.

Everyone complains about Marino and the 1983 draft, but why didn't someone take Moon out of Washington? Which may be why he hung around way after he was a great at the end. Moon goes undrafted and doesn't take an NFL snap until after he's 27.What could he have done had he been in the NFL for those 5 seasons?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm

[PeterNorth09]

That is just the thing. In Curtis time here, the Jets were never one player away. 1998? Curtis was still young then and that was before the Bradway contract so unless you were paying more you probably weren't getting somebody better.

Bingo. You can't blame Curtis Martin for the Jets not winning a SB while he was here. 1998 the Jets simply were playing over their heads and weren't as good as the Broncos.

1999 was the best Jets team of the past 25 years until Vinny blew out his tendon in week one and Parcells thought the Jets didn't need a back-up QB. One injury ruined the season and Martin's only real chance of ever winning a Super Bowl here.

Next year Parcells runs out of town like a little girl, following year Al Groh does the same and we're stuck with Hermway the next 5 years.

So how was any of that Curtis Martin's fault?

[Biggs]

Stabler's never getting ino the HoF because he didn't give his all in some games at the end. There were losses with the Saints that were beyond questionable. And this is a guy who made no secret that he partied wtih Gulf Coast gamblers his whole career and afterward. Moon deserves it because stupidity and small-mindedness probably kept him out of the NFL for the early part of his career. Everyone complains about marino and the 1983 draft, but why didn't someoen take Moon out of Washington? Which may be why he hung around way after he was a great at the end. Moon goes undrafted and doesn't take an NFL snap until after he's 27.

I went to UW when Moon was a freshman QB. He was a fine QB in the mold of Drew Bledsoe another guy who has a shot to go into the HOF. Stabler took his team through Pittsburgh, probably the greatest team in NFL history. Stabler in his prime was twice the QB Moon ever was and he won against great competition.

[PeterNorth09]

As for the argument that guys like Terrell Davis belong in Canton I agree.

You have to reward both types of players. Guys who were dominant for a couple years and won Super Bowls deserve to be in the Hall the same way guys who lasted a long time and survived and put up great stats do.

[Bugg]

I went to UW when Moon was a freshman QB. He was a fine QB in the mold of Drew Bledsoe another guy who has a shot to go into the HOF. Stabler took his team through Pittsburgh, probably the greatest team in NFL history. Stabler in his prime was twice the QB Moon ever was and he won against great competition.

That all may be true. Stabler had a great run in the mid-to-late--1970s. But Moon was robbed of 5 NFL seasons and Stabler almost certainly threw games.

[Biggs]

That all may be true. Stabler had a great run in the mid-to-late--1970s. But Moon was robbed of 5 NFL seasons and Stabler almost certainly threw games.

Why does being robbed of seasons put him in the HOF? He got in by compiling stats over time. He was never the best QB in the league and never pushed his team to the head of the pack. I mentioned Bledsoe because on stats he is going to be very hard to keep out of the HOF.

[Bugg]

Why does being robbed of seasons put him in the HOF? He got in by compiling stats over time. He was never the best QB in the league and never pushed his team to the head of the pack. I mentioned Bledsoe because on stats he is going to be very hard to keep out of the HOF.

It may not be a perfect comparison, but same as Jackie Robinson, Moon was a pioneer who's contribution to the NFL should be recognized. He was a great QB, and in this one case the fact that he had to go to the CFL should allow the committee to cut him a break. It's an exceptional case, and I cannot think of anyone else I'd give that credit to in recent history.

[EM31]

...You fought gallantly Scott and a Curtis fan like myself thanks you but your words are falling on deaf ears....they wouldnt get it if it smacked them in the face....Curtis will be missed and thats all. He had great work ethic and is a great person just let him have that and ride on into the sunset

And he is kind to animals and gives to charity so let's open up the bank book and pay him more than any running back in the history of the NFL. Let's overpay every nice guy on the team and retain them well past their fresh date. Let's continue to run the offense around them even when they are injured and ineffective so that they can achieve personal career milestones even if doing that will prevent the franchise from moving forward.

Incidentally Dierking's "facts" are incorrect. Martin's was on a pace that would fall short of 1000 yard season. Not really by a huge amount but if you get into someone's grill to dispute a "fact" and then observe that they are not letting "facts" get in the way of their arguments then I think you should at least be correct.

2005 New York Jets 12 (games) 12 220 735 (yards) 3.3 49 5 4 35

Actually for those of us who watched all the games last year it even more painful than those horrible numbers. Apart from one freak game against the Bills, Curtis sucked even worse than that for the eleven other games he was the starter last year.

If someone needs help with the math I think we could arrange some remedial classes.

Here's a "fact" If Curtis does not play another down in the NFL and if he goes into the hall of fame then he will have the 2nd lowest YPC average of any HOF running back in the history of the game. But hey, as has been observed, he is nice to children and animals.

4.008243320068220579874928936896

What that says is exactly what that says. Average or a bit better but for a boat load of years but with good total yardage numbers because of the HUGE amount of carries he recieved. On any team with a sane balance between run and pass, Curtis would have disappeared. Not great but "great" longevity. But wait you say, what about his receiving skills? Sorry but those are downright weak when measured against his contemporaries. Here is where Curtis supporters usually start yakking about his ability to pick up the blitz.

But let's not worry about all of that. He was nice guy and a class act. Wouldn't want any actual statistcs to get in the way of other people's "Phacts"

[PeterNorth09]

And he is kind to animals and gives to charity so let's open up the bank book and pay him more than any running back in the history of the NFL. Let's overpay every nice guy on the team and retain them well past their fresh date. Let's continue to run the offense around them even when they are injured and ineffective so that they can achieve personal career milestones even if doing that will prevent the franchise from moving forward.

Incidentally Dierking's "facts" are incorrect. Martin's was on a pace that would fall short of 1000 yard season. Not really by a huge amount but if you get into someone's grill to dispute a "fact" and then observe that they are not letting "facts" get in the way of their arguments then I think you should at least be correct.

2005 New York Jets 12 (games) 12 220 735 (yards) 3.3 49 5 4 35

Actually for those of us who watched all the games last year it even more painful than those horrible numbers. Apart from one freak game against the Bills, Curtis sucked even worse than that for the eleven other games he was the starter last year.

If someone needs help with the math I think we could arrange some remedial classes.

Here's a "fact" If Curtis does not play another down in the NFL and if he goes into the hall of fame then he will have the 2nd lowest YPC average of any HOF running back in the history of the game. But hey, as has been observed, he is nice to children and animals.

4.008243320068220579874928936896

What that says is exactly what that says. Average or a bit better but for a boat load of years but with good total yardage numbers because of the HUGE amount of carries he recieved. On any team with a sane balance between run and pass, Curtis would have disappeared. Not great but "great" longevity. But wait you say, what about his receiving skills? Sorry but those are downright weak when measured against his contemporaries. Here is where Curtis supporters usually start yakking about his ability to pick up the blitz.

But let's not worry about all of that. He was nice guy and a class act. Wouldn't want any actual statistcs to get in the way of other people's "Phacts"

Do you know anything about football?

If you actually watched Curtis Martin you'd know he was a good-excellent running back for over a decade in the NFL. Very few NFL players can claim that. Even fewer RB's can.

Have fun citing Curtis's 2005 stats when he was old, hurt, had no QB and no O-line. That's like using Charles Barkley's stats from his last year in the NBA. Jerry Rice didn't put up any good numbers his last NFL season in Seattle. Boy does he suck.

NFL Running Back is physcially the most demanding position in all of sports and Curtis Martin was one of the best at it for over 10 years. Case closed.

[Maxman]

I just want to go on record as saying Marci started on hell of a thread.

[EM31]

Do you know anything about football?

<blah blah blah blah emotional rant>.... Case closed.

Do YOU know ANYTHING about football? Do you ever feel a need to support your arguments?

Curtis had freakish durability and freakinsh longevity. Aside from that he was a solid running back who benefitted greatly from a run oriented Offensive coordinator who also happened to be his high scool coach. A coach who was run out of Kansas City because of his refusal to deviate from his "run first run second" philosphy. If you take a league high or near league high number of carries every year and freakinsh durability you get good statistical numbers at the end of the day. All of those infernal third and forever draw plays (which drove Jets fans nuts) which never made first downs but often got the running back 12-15 yards also tended to pad his stats mightily over the course of a career. Curtis gave us dependability at a cost of one of the highest paid running backs in the history of the NFL. Curtis may have been a lexus but we paid Ferrari prices for him. Those Ferrari dollars meant there was less to spend elsewhere.

What you did not get was a guy who was a force who had to be dealt with the way the TD or LJ or Priest Holmes or Marshall Faulk or Shawn Alexander or Edge or any one of a number other running backs were a force on the field. Curtis came up small for us in big games. Freeman was a better running back for one game than Curtis was. If you are happy with "a bit better than average" for ten years then you are easily pleased.

[PeterNorth09]

Do YOU know ANYTHING about football? Do you ever feel a need to support your arguments?

Curtis had freakish durability and freakinsh longevity. Aside from that he was a solid running back who benefitted greatly from a run oriented Offensive coordinator who also happened to be his high scool coach. A coach who was run out of Kansas City because of his refusal to deviate from his "run first run second" philosphy. If you take a league high or near league high number of carries every year and freakinsh durability you get good statistical numbers at the end of the day. All of those infernal third and forever draw plays (which drove Jets fans nuts) which never made first downs but often got the running back 12-15 yards also tended to pad his stats mightily over the course of a career. Curtis gave us dependability at a cost of one of the highest paid running backs in the history of the NFL. Curtis may have been a lexus but we paid Ferrari prices for him. Those Ferrari dollars meant there was less to spend elsewhere.

What you did not get was a guy who was a force who had to be dealt with the way the TD or LJ or Priest Holmes or Marshall Faulk or Shawn Alexander or Edge or any one of a number other running backs were a force on the field. Curtis came up small for us in big games. Freeman was a better running back for one game than Curtis was. If you are happy with "a bit better than average" for ten years then you are easily pleased.

You're starting to sound like one of those clowns who bash Chad Pennington every week. Only thing is that Martin is a much better RB than Pennington is a QB which makes your arguments even more hilarious.

Curtis Martin was one of the best RB's in the NFL BEFORE Herm Edwards and Paul Hackett came to town. He was actually a better RB with Parcells who had a more balanced playbook and ran less.

Paul Wackit's ultra-conservative offense made it more difficult for Martin to produce. Not the other way as you argue. All defenses had to do to stop the Jets offense in the Herm Wackit era was put 10 men in the box because they knew the Jets would try to run the ball 90% of the time. I don't care if your OJ Simpson your not getting good yardage on a lame 3rd and 10 draw play.

But hey have fun convincing yourself you're right. The rest of the football world thinks Curtis Martin was a great player and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

[EM31]

You're starting to sound like one of those clowns who bash Chad Pennington every week. Only thing is that Martin is a much better RB than Pennington is a QB which makes your arguments even more hilarious.

And you are starting to sound like a substance free dope.

Curtis Martin was one of the best RB's in the NFL BEFORE Herm Edwards and Paul Hackett came to town. He was actually a better RB with Parcells who had a more balanced playbook.

*gong* - If you measure "best" by total number of yards at the end of the year then he was one of the better ones. Once you factor in the number of carries or better yet if you actually watched the games you would be able to see that the number of times Curtis actually took over a game would not have put him into the elite category. Do you actually watch the games Peter?

Paul Wackit's ultra-conservative offense made it more difficult for Martin to produce. All defenses had to do to stop the Jets offense in the Herm Wackit era was put 10 men in the box because they knew the Jets would try to run the ball 90% of the time.

Rubbish. Running backs under Hackett always fared well statistically. Usually at the expense of other areas of the offense. Jeez you guys are funny. First it was eight in the box, then nine and now "ten in the box".... Will the excuses for Curtis' ordinary performances never end? One of the mods around here used to have the top twenty "excuses" used by Curtis Martiun supporters for why it wasn't his fault that he was a 4.0 ypc runner. Perhaps he should resurrect it.

But hey have fun convincing yourself you're right. The rest of the football world thinks Curtis Martin was a great player and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

He is going to the Hall of fame because he was an iron man. Not because he particulalry scared anyone as a runner.

[Jets Girl]

Um, someone get that damn Marci back in here. She started this damn thread, lol.

Sorry I was just saying I missed him and of a sudden everyone is going back and forth...Told you guys I was new at posting...I just love the jets......and want to be apart of something with people that love them just as much as I do...Grow up people or I'm never posting again...ahahha

PS what did you guys think of Ken O'brien back in the day....that's when I start following football I think I was in 8th grade now i'm 34...Marci

[BP]

Sorry I was just saying I missed him and of a sudden everyone is going back and forth...Told you guys I was new at posting...I just love the jets......and want to be apart of something with people that love them just as much as I do...Grow up people or I'm never posting again...ahahha

Thats it Marci!!!Dont take any ****!!!

PS what did you guys think of Ken O'brien back in the day....that's when I start following football I think I was in 8th grade now i'm 34...Marci

Ken O'brien would have been a great qb..except for the fact he had Joe Walton as a coach..no offensive line..and Andre Tippett used to do WWF pile drivers on him all the time..he eventually became gun shy with happy feet..that physical abuse he took in late 1986 forward scarred him the rest of his career..

[PeterNorth09]

Rubbish. Running backs under Hackett always fared well statistically. Usually at the expense of other areas of the offense. Jeez you guys are funny. First it was eight in the box, then nine and now "ten in the box".... Will the excuses for Curtis' ordinary performances never end? One of the mods around here used to have the top twenty "excuses" used by Curtis Martiun supporters for why it wasn't his fault that he was a 4.0 ypc runner. Perhaps he should resurrect it.

Martin was better under Hackett? Are you kidding?

1995 New England Patriots 1487 yds 14 TD's (Parcells)

1996 New England Patriots 1152 yds 14 TD's (Parcells)

2000 New York Jets 1204 yds 9 TD's rushing 508 yds 2 TD's receiving (Groh)

The only years that back-up your argument are 2001 and 2004. Other than that Martin was a better runner and receiver when he played in a more balanced offense where the field was actually spread out once in a while.

Now go back to kissing your Freeman McNeill posters.

[Sperm Edwards]

One of the mods around here used to have the top twenty "excuses" used by Curtis Martiun supporters for why it wasn't his fault that he was a 4.0 ypc runner. Perhaps he should resurrect it.

Pffft. Like you don't have it saved on your hard drive. :wink:

And if Curtis faced 10 men in the box with either a cannon-armed Testaverde or a then-efficient Pennington, how many did Jamal Lewis face with Tony Banks, Trent Dilfer, Elvis Grbac, Jeff Blake, and Kyle Boller?

[EM31]

Martin was better under Hackett? Are you kidding?

1995 New England Patriots 1487 yds 14 TD's (Parcells)

1996 New England Patriots 1152 yds 14 TD's (Parcells)

2000 New York Jets 1204 yds 9 TD's rushing 508 yds 2 TD's receiving (Groh)

The only years that back-up your argument are 2001 and 2004. Other than that Martin was a better runner and receiver when he played in a more balanced offense where the field was actually spread out once in a while.

Now go back to kissing your Freeman McNeill posters.

Seriously if your measuring stick is TD's I will quote Brad Baxter right back atcha. Doh! Also Curtis has traditionally been taken out in goal line situations for much of his career so I would stay away from the TD stat if I were you. This was a trend that was started under Parcells by the way. Curtis was generally regarded as only partially effective punching it in or in short yardage situations in general. Consequently he often was taken out for a more effective runner in those situtations. Lamont Jordan when he did get into the game usually got in on 3rd and short.

Incidentally these "trends" also helped out his overall YPC average taking it up from "life support" and into the "merely anemic" territory. If you would take any other running back in the league and tell them they were going to be lifted out in obvious short yardage running situations then every one of them would recognize and understand that this strategy would benefit their overall YPC. See what happens when your HS coach is your OC?

Here are the (un cherry-picked stats). His YPC average was better in the Hackett years and number of carries was generally higher also. Since if you take off your shoes to help you count and try hard enough you might recognize that this translates into a superior total yards stat. (You know... avg * number of carries = total yards ). How is any of that related to your point obut apponents putting fifteen men in the bax to tackle Curtis having hurt his career again?

Year Team G GS C Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 1st

1995 New England Patriots 16 15 368 1487 4.0 49 14 11 80

1996 New England Patriots 16 15 316 1152 3.6 57 14 3 76

1997 New England Patriots 13 13 274 1160 4.2 70 4 8 46

1998 New York Jets 15 15 369 1287 3.5 60 8 2 69

1999 New York Jets 16 16 367 1464 4.0 50 5 9 84

2000 New York Jets 16 16 316 1204 3.8 55 9 8 61

2001 New York Jets 16 16 333 1513 4.5 47 10 9 77

2002 New York Jets 16 16 261 1094 4.2 35 7 5 54

2003 New York Jets 16 16 323 1308 4.0 56 2 5 53

2004 New York Jets 16 16 371 1697 4.6 25 12 7 90

2005 New York Jets 12 12 220 735 3.3 49 5 4 35

2006 New York Jets 0 0 0 0 --- 0 0 0 0

TOTAL 168 166 3518 14101 4.0 70 90 71 725

The thing that strikes me about these stats (above) are that they are almost eerily consistent year in and year out. Curtis was just and unbelievable consistent player who showed up to play every day year in and year out. He had the good fortune to play for teams where the HC was in favor of going to his horse early and often. If you stay healthy as Curtis did, the numbers will come. And they did.

[Maxman]

Sorry I was just saying I missed him and of a sudden everyone is going back and forth...Told you guys I was new at posting...I just love the jets......and want to be apart of something with people that love them just as much as I do...Grow up people or I'm never posting again...ahahha

PS what did you guys think of Ken O'brien back in the day....that's when I start following football I think I was in 8th grade now i'm 34...Marci

Hey, no need to apologize. Anytime you can start a thread that goes on this long -- I must personally thank you. So, THANK YOU.

[PatsFanTX]

Hey, no need to apologize. Anytime you can start a thread that goes on this long -- I must personally thank you. So, THANK YOU.

Speaking of that, where is my December commission check?

[Maxman]

Speaking of that, where is my December commission check?

Would it be small of me to make a hanging Chad \ Florida joke at this time?