Herm- luck not involved in Chiefs making playoffs

[nyjunc]

If I get your premise Junc they installed the WCO in 01 for Chad not for Vinny. Chad actually did play in week 1, he actually attempted 6 passes. He also played in week 6 against St. Louis.

Why would you make a playoff run and go into the playoffs with an O designed for your future QB instead of the QB who was playing and who down the stretch that year put you in the playoffs? Any good Coach plays to his teams strenghts particularly the QB's strength. You have always said you can't win a SB unless you get to the playoffs. Why handicap a playoff team by running an O for a QB who you have on the bench?

In 02 the coach in TC says Chad isn't ready but still opens the season with the WCO. We end up going 1 & 4 to open the season before Chad comes in and we lose two out of the next three before going on a tear. Isn't it possible that if Chad had started in 02 instead of 1 & 5 maybe we beat both KC and Cleveland and start 3 & 3 or maybe better. Maybe we go 11 & 5 or 12 & 4 that year, which that year might have given us a first round bye and a home game increasing our odds of a SB by a huge amount. Instead we depended on a complete melt down by Miami to get in and have to go on the road in the second round to take on the Raiders. The fact is a better plan, particularly in 02 might very well have won us a SB. 02 was an example of a wasted opportunity.

You aren't going to install an offense for vinny then turn arround and install a new offense for Chad when Chad's ready. '01 was supposed to be a building year but much like this year we surprised and made the playoffs. Chad is NOT a good practice player and Vinny is so vinny won the job in '02, Chad was givent he job after the bad start and we took off from there. The offense was designed around Chad's strengths as they knew Chad was the future.

[Biggs]

They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad.

Why did he fire him after he's O got us to within 1 kick of the AFC finals with a QB with a torn shoulder and than bring in Dinger who's O was designed for a mobil big armed QB.

[johnny green balls]

Obviously the team Dr's cleared him to play or he wouldn't have played.

you deny that chad wasn't ready to play opening day '05? you think if he got his surgery week 14 (instead of jan. '05) in '04 he would've had a better chance to be ready? herm=sacrifice long-term health to eek out a wildcard game so his apologists can crow "playoffs 3 outta 5! 3 outta 5!"

[nyjunc]

you deny that chad wasn't ready to play opening day '05? you think if he got his surgery week 14 (instead of jan. '05) in '04 he would've had a better chance to be ready? herm=sacrifice long-term health to eek out a wildcard game so his apologists can crow "playoffs 3 outta 5! 3 outta 5!"

We had a chance to make a deep playoff run in '04, if he gets the surgery in Dec and is fully ready for '05 we might not make the playoffs and if we did we would have lost at SD then we wouldn't have been much better in '05 b/c of the numerous other injuries we had. If Chad was willing to lay his body on the line and if he was cleared to play then I have no problem. We were a makeable kick away from the AFC Title Game- those opportunities don't come around often.

[nyjunc]

Why did he fire him after he's O got us to within 1 kick of the AFC finals with a QB with a torn shoulder and than bring in Dinger who's O was designed for a mobil big armed QB.

I don't think it was the offense he designed I think it had more to do w/ his playcalling. heck is a GREAT teacher of offense but he is a terrible playcaller who is too conservative and predictable. I also think having let go of Cottrell for henderson worked out so well that he thought he could strike gold again- it didn't work out.

heimerdinger ran a version of the WCO, so it was a very similar offense.

[Sperm Edwards]

They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad.

Hackett had connections with both Herm & Bradway from KC. He also was available for hire, having been recently fired from USC. He shared the same philosophy as Herm & Marty of ball-control & take-no-risks. That is why he was hired.

If you can find one place where anyone quoted Herm OR Bradway as saying they preferred Hackett to another candidate b/c of Chad I'll eat my words.

The 3 technique requires more quickness than power. He took a shot w/ Ellis and I am pretty sur he moved him after Ferg got hurt.

Totally false. It was from pre-season. Ellis was told to bulk up to ~300 lbs. Had nothing to do with Fergie.

First off that was the first game of his coaching career. Secondly we scored 24 and were going in for 31 when Vinny fumlbed at the Indy GL the they retunred it 98 yds for the TD.

It was pathetic.

His players were healthy in '01 and '04 but he had some injury problems at other times. We were very healthy heading into the 2nd half which is why we started winning so much.

As for Curtis, that is one of my biggest gripes w/ Herm. he should have used Jordan more especially during that time.

We started winning so much b/c no one knew anything about Pennington yet & had some semblance of a running game now that Martin wasn't totally gimpy. Also, other teams foolishly assumed that passes would be attempted beyond the first-down marker.

If [Chrebet] holds onto the ball we win.

Again, Chrebet didn't blow a 21-0 lead vs the friggin' Cleveland Browns.

They drafted BT b/c Ellis struggled and b/c soon Abe and ellis' contracts were up.

Totally false. The Ellis-to-DT experiment failed but wasn't totally thought of as a bad idea. Abe & Ellis were drafted in 2000 to 5-year contracts. Each had 3 seasons left on their contracts when BT was drafted ('02, '03, '04).

I enjoy this back & forth stuff, but if you're just going to make up things that didn't happen it's pointless. You never read or heard ANYWHERE that Abe/Ellis' contracts had ANYTHING to do with drafting BT & just made it up.

if we don't beat them in that game they win the division again. we are the only team that interrupted their dynasty for a year by winning it in '02. yes they had a losing streak early in the season but they were alot better late and wouldn't lose 2 in a row again until this year.

When we beat them they were coming of a 24-7 beating from the Titans. Brady was clearly not healthy. Their rush defense was giving up 4.7 yards per carry while they were only gaining 3.8 ypc themselves. To try to paint this NE team as somehow just as good as the ones we all saw in the following seasons if nonsense.

What did you want him to do?

Keep his trap shut for once regarding a player who we were about to try to re-sign. Nobody asked him about Coles & he offered up that we had to get bigger at WR to a player he knows has some ego issues. It was dumb.

You gusy just look at final records, the Giants were not awful when we played them. That win put them at 4-4 and in the thick of it but they fell apart after that game. We weren't very good that year either.

Huh? The Giants had lost 3 of their last 4 going into the game. Then after the game they lost 8 more in a row. You make it sound as though in between beating the Jets and their next game (which they lost to the Falcons who would otherwise have been in the middle of an 11-game losing streak) the whole team was suddenly injured.

you can't do that forever, at some point a team is going to beat you but since that sweep in '03 we have gone 5-1 against them so I think we got it back.

5-1? Two of those came after Herm was no longer the coach. Two more came in a 4-12 Season for Miami. Another came in early '05 to a Miami team that would start 3-7. Whatever we got back was due to (1) their team being SO bad in '04, and (2) Herm not being here.

The whole thing with "owning" Miami was that they were GOOD and we used to beat them anyway.

They lost to a good jets team and the Broncos on the road. I think you are fiddling w/ #s. After that they lost one game until week 17(a 1 pt loss at a good Atl team). SD lost 4 games, all 4 to playoff teams.

They were considerd so b/c people based it on preseason expectations. That's like saying we were sucky in week 2 against NE this year. We had an "upset" win in week 1 and then fell behind early to NE and came back to make it look close- EXACTLY like what we did to SD in '04.

SD was grossly overrated in 2004. And that early in the season they did still suck. Due to a friendship I end up watching every Chargers game. Fortunately for them, they played most of their games vs teams even suckier.

Before you were touting records at the end of seasons and now w/ SD and Buf you talk about their records at the time- which do you want to use? Buf started 0-4 but 3 of the 4 losses were by 3 pts or less. They were not a bad team even early on.

They were still losers. 0-3 and 2-5 when we played them. The games they won (other than the Jets game of course) were against a bunch of extreme lightweights. You were the one who chose to use their 9-7 record as an example of their talent. Yet it was while they were allegedly so good that they lost to Pittsburgh's backups in a meaningless game for the Steelers. Our team was so much better than theirs it should not have been close.

And even in the game we won, WE got lucky & squeaked it out despite Herm trying to run out the clock with a whole quarter left in a 2-score game with Martin having his usual garbage game against a non-bottom-feeder rush defense. Only reason we won is that Buffalo was just lousy.

We lost Chad in the middle of that game and sometimes 2-5 teams turn out better than 6-1 teams- remember SD '02?

In the MIDDLE of that game? Really? Carter didn't come in until there was only 6 min left in the 4th quarter.

When Chad was injured it was 20-10 in the 4th quarter and we just punted. Then on the next series we took over on our own 1, committed an illegal substitution, then Martin got tackled in the endzone for a safety. Explain how that would've been any different with Chad in there.

I agree abou the Jordan pass it was the dumbest playcall maybe I have ever seen. I was as livid as could be about that one.

At least you're not trying to use that stupidity as "hey, he's playing to WIN!"

i am not looking to excuse Herm but rather poitning out that all coaches make dumb decisions from time to time.

If you think I came close to pointing out 1/10 of his dumb decisions you are mistaken.

he played well against bad Ds but struggled against better, quicker D.s His arm isn't striong but he had even less zip that usual and he was struggling. It wa quite amazing w/ our O scoring 3 pts that we were even int he Pitt game let alone should ahve won the game if our K could make 1 of 2 kicks.

Pittsburgh was giving up 16ppg to everyone (even averaging in the scrubs they played). We managed 12 pts of offense in 2 games.

If Chad was incapable of performing at the necessary level, he should not have been in there. Particularly against a defense whose strength was their front-seven (and TP vs the run) and who was at least vulnerable vs a vertical passing game.

Herm instead chose the stubborn route. Go with the small, no-power runner vs a big, power-defense. Go with dink-&-dunk with top-notch LB'ers and a safety that was cheating up the whole game.

But for Roethlisberger throwing that pass right into Teague's hands with nothing but an open running-lane in front of him, plus Moss' punt return (which has zero to do with Herm), it wouldn't have been close. Close-game losses are on the coach unless something unusual happened.

I didn't like that decision but he msised by inches from 47, he should have been able to make it from 43.

It was absurd. He was lucky Brien was even that close from 47. It was a low-percentage attempt. It would've been better to take a shot & try to get a little closer; CERTAINLY not farther away. Run Jordan up the gut & try to get 2 yds would've been better.

He just never seemed to think he was capable of a TD vs decent defenses & it showed in how we went about the game.

hamstring pulls and things like that are affected by the rigors of camp but not torn rotator cuffs and torn knees. Maybe it played a role but it wasn't the reason we were so beat up.

We had alot more than Vinny hurt in 1999 and we had a Parcells camp, sometimes it's just luck w/ injuries.

I'm not going to argue with you on this. Clearly you don't think practicing in no pads & not fining overweight players is a good idea.

(these do take a while to reply to)

[johnny green balls]

just want to point out the preposterousness of the hermaphrodites on this thread saying going 4-12 and having a ton of injuries is the result of bad luck while agreeing with jerk chicken that kc getting into the playoffs had nothing to do with luck because "you are what you are" and herm got them in. discuss.

luck cuts both ways, if herm wants to blame it for losing he has to give it some credit for winning, too.

[Biggs]

I don't think it was the offense he designed I think it had more to do w/ his playcalling. heck is a GREAT teacher of offense but he is a terrible playcaller who is too conservative and predictable. I also think having let go of Cottrell for henderson worked out so well that he thought he could strike gold again- it didn't work out.

heimerdinger ran a version of the WCO, so it was a very similar offense.

Dinger's O was Eddie George pounding the middle and McNair rolling out avioding the rush and with guys hanging all over him throwing a rope to a WR 35 yards down field. Not exactly the Chad Pennington O.

[Preston Howley III]

I guess everyone forgets Ray Lucas was gone after the 2000 season.

It was your source, genius.

[Preston Howley III]

It was common knowldge back then, I searched it and that was the only article I found on Hackett's hiring. it was disucssed back then. Don't believe me? I don't care, I know I am right.

I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus. Don't believe me? I don't care, I know I am right.

It wasn't "common knowledge" back then. It's a fairy tale you just invented, right now.

[Preston Howley III]

Here's a link to the Jets-Giants preseason game, surprise! Chad played! so don't start spreading more lies.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2002/08/24/jets_giants_ap/

here is a link about the eagle game:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2002/08/30/eagles_jets_ap/

Here's the box from the Pitt game, Chad played again!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores102/102220/20020808NFLX-PITTSBURGH0.htm

which begs the question, why did Herm elect to go with Vinny?

[Preston Howley III]

I enjoy this back & forth stuff, but if you're just going to make up things that didn't happen it's pointless. You never read or heard ANYWHERE that Abe/Ellis' contracts had ANYTHING to do with drafting BT & just made it up.

[Sperm Edwards]

I'd rather have Mangini, mangini is a much better schemer and adapts much better, herms' stergnth is delgating to coordinators and motivating his team. Both have strengths and weaknesses and long term I think mangini is the choice but Herm had a very good year w/ less talent and a more difficult sched.

I missed this post.

Delegating work to others is a strength? What person unqualified for any position could not learn this "skill" in about 4 seconds?

That's like saying a strength of an homely Victoria's Secret executive is delegating the modeling of a piece of lingerie to Gisele Bundchen.

[BP]

This turned out to be a very entertaining thread!!

[JetsMan57]

"Pennington isn't ready, and he may never be ready", eve though it was clear if you were going to run the WCO he was perfect. Again, but for Pennington being thrown in as a desperate afterthought, Edwards is probably lucky to be working in any coaching job today.

I remember that clear as day. Herm didnt have a clue what he had in Chad and Ill never forget later on int he year when Chad was lighting it up that c*cksucker herm said he always knew that was this good. Yea ok you arsehole then why didnt you make him start the season? You knew he was going to be that good yet you made him ride the pine until you had no choice. I wanted to punch his teeth down his mouth when I read that.

[Sperm Edwards]

I remember that clear as day. Herm didnt have a clue what he had in Chad and Ill never forget later on in the year when Chad was lighting it up that c*cksucker herm said he always knew that was this good. Yea ok you arsehole then why didnt you make him start the season? You knew he was going to be that good yet you made him ride the pine until you had no choice. I wanted to punch his teeth down his mouth when I read that.

You would've just made him an even bigger martyr for Cannizzaro, if that were at all possible.

[JetsMan57]

Herm was looking for every excuse in the book in 2002 to take practice reps away from Chad and give them to Tory Woodbury. He said Chad was too "analytical" too "indecisive." As if Herm has a clue what he is talkign about when evaluating QBs

To his credit though, the one man who stood behind Chad the whole time was Hackette. He assured us that Chad was the real deal when the media was doubting him. It was pretty much's Hackette's plea to the moron Herm to get Vinny out of there and insert Chad.

[Preston Howley III]

but your article 2 years after Herm was hired about minority candidates does? You can't be serious?

You contemptable, disengenuous, intellectually dishonest person.

"My" article was to demonstrate the politically charged atmosphere which created the circumstances that inevitably fast tracked a defensive backs coach to the front of the line via the NFL's minority candidate program.

No beat writer will touch this story because it's politically incorrect. But if I had the resources, time and salary that is afforded a New York Times investigative journalist, I assure you I would be able to connect the dots.

[SouthernJet]

I missed this post.

Delegating work to others is a strength? What person unqualified for any position could not learn this "skill" in about 4 seconds?

That's like saying a strength of an homely Victoria's Secret executive is delegating the modeling of a piece of lingerie to Gisele Bundchen.

haha. Delegating a strength of Herms. First off, like mentioned, its anot hard to learn. Second, Revernen Turd has no choice as he couldnt even fathom what a coordinator does. This 'poster' just lost all credibility.

[SouthernJet]

You contemptable, disengenuous, intellectually dishonest person.

"My" article was to demonstrate the politically charged atmosphere which created the circumstances that inevitably fast tracked a defensive backs coach to the front of the line via the NFL's minority candidate program.

No beat writer will touch this story because it's politically incorrect. But if I had the resources, time and salary that is afforded a New York Times investigative journalist, I assure you I would be able to connect the dots.

Agree.

I also always found it amusing that Herm and the NFL took this path with him being half-white.

He is like the kid who finds out he has a Minority great grandfather and all of a sudden uses it to get into Harvard.

None of the struggle but all the gravy.

[nyjunc]

Hackett had connections with both Herm & Bradway from KC. He also was available for hire, having been recently fired from USC. He shared the same philosophy as Herm & Marty of ball-control & take-no-risks. That is why he was hired.

If you can find one place where anyone quoted Herm OR Bradway as saying they preferred Hackett to another candidate b/c of Chad I'll eat my words.

You provide a quote saying he was hired for another reason besides Chad.

Totally false. It was from pre-season. Ellis was told to bulk up to ~300 lbs. Had nothing to do with Fergie.

Maybe you are right on that one. I remember ferg getting hurt and then sliding Ellis down. The article below doesn't mention Ellis as a DT after Ferg went down:

http://archive.sportingnews.com/nfl/articles/20010820/337323.html

Either way if it was planned it didn't work out, not every move works but Abe to DE worked, right?

Again, Chrebet didn't blow a 21-0 lead vs the friggin' Cleveland Browns.

Again if wayne holds on we win.

When we beat them they were coming of a 24-7 beating from the Titans. Brady was clearly not healthy. Their rush defense was giving up 4.7 yards per carry while they were only gaining 3.8 ypc themselves. To try to paint this NE team as somehow just as good as the ones we all saw in the following seasons if nonsense.

Why does it only count when we lose? When we lost to NE in Week 2 we were badly banged up- do we get any excuses for that? NO. NE had won 3 of 4 and 5 of 7 before the Jet game so they were playing pretty well.

Huh? The Giants had lost 3 of their last 4 going into the game. Then after the game they lost 8 more in a row. You make it sound as though in between beating the Jets and their next game (which they lost to the Falcons who would otherwise have been in the middle of an 11-game losing streak) the whole team was suddenly injured.

How come when a team finishes w/ a good record you dimiss them b/c we played them early in the season but when a team finishes w/ a bad record that's what you highlight? They had lost 3 of 4 but won 1 in a row and that made it 2 in a row.

5-1? Two of those came after Herm was no longer the coach. Two more came in a 4-12 Season for Miami. Another came in early '05 to a Miami team that would start 3-7. Whatever we got back was due to (1) their team being SO bad in '04, and (2) Herm not being here.

Again it doesn't count that we beat them when they were 4-12 but it's a negative on Herm that when we were 4-12 we didn't sweep them?

The whole thing with "owning" Miami was that they were GOOD and we used to beat them anyway.

So I guess this year didn't count since they were 6-10?

SD was grossly overrated in 2004. And that early in the season they did still suck. Due to a friendship I end up watching every Chargers game. Fortunately for them, they played most of their games vs teams even suckier.

Here we go again, if they finished 4-12 and were 4-0 when we beat them you'd say they were bad b/c they finsihed 4-12 but the team finished 12-4 and was 1-0 when we faced them but they sucked. SD was 12-4 and 7-1 at home(w/ the lone reg season loss to the Jets). They lost 2 games the final 13 weeks of the season by a combined 4 points on the road against playoff teams and they won a tough division comfortably.

You guys are amazing the way you take credit away from a person you do not like.

They were still losers. 0-3 and 2-5 when we played them. The games they won (other than the Jets game of course) were against a bunch of extreme lightweights. You were the one who chose to use their 9-7 record as an example of their talent. Yet it was while they were allegedly so good that they lost to Pittsburgh's backups in a meaningless game for the Steelers. Our team was so much better than theirs it should not have been close.

SD was 1-0, the giants in '03 were 3-4 so why weren't they conisderd good at the team or at least decent? Buf had lost their first 4 and 3 of them by a combined 8 points- they weren't that bad.

In the MIDDLE of that game? Really? Carter didn't come in until there was only 6 min left in the 4th quarter

That's a problem I had w/ Herm, he should have lifted Chad when it was apparent he couldn't throw. Chad was hurt in the 1st half but continued playing.

When Chad was injured it was 20-10 in the 4th quarter and we just punted. Then on the next series we took over on our own 1, committed an illegal substitution, then Martin got tackled in the endzone for a safety. Explain how that would've been any different with Chad in there.

Incorrect, he was hurt in the first half.

Pennington said he was initially hurt in the first quarter, when he scrambled up the middle for a 12-yard gain before he fumbled. He finished 7-of-15 for 141 yards, including a 6-yard touchdown to Justin McCareins.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20041107_NYJ@BUF

I'm not going to argue with you on this. Clearly you don't think practicing in no pads & not fining overweight players is a good idea.

(these do take a while to reply to)

I didn't say I agreed w/ his TCs but we ran a touhg TC in '00 and faded down the stretch while in '01 and '02 we got better as the season went on and we were healthy.

I know it takes awhile, I will never run and hide though sometimes it may take a while to get back to you. You amde a good point on Ellis-Thomas, my memory was a little hazy on that one.

[nyjunc]

just want to point out the preposterousness of the hermaphrodites on this thread saying going 4-12 and having a ton of injuries is the result of bad luck while agreeing with jerk chicken that kc getting into the playoffs had nothing to do with luck because "you are what you are" and herm got them in. discuss.

luck cuts both ways, if herm wants to blame it for losing he has to give it some credit for winning, too.

You win the games you have to win to get in, this year 9 was enough and they did it while other teams couldn't win enough games to get in. As much as I hate the giants they won enough games to get into a bad NFC.

Dinger's O was Eddie George pounding the middle and McNair rolling out avioding the rush and with guys hanging all over him throwing a rope to a WR 35 yards down field. Not exactly the Chad Pennington O.

Mcnair became a passing QB under Dinger, prior to Dinger he was not a great passer and Dinger turned him onto an MVP.

It was your source, genius.

my soure? i just posted an article I found. You would think a Jet fan would know Lucas was not on the team in 2001.

which begs the question, why did Herm elect to go with Vinny?

vinny had been the QB of a 10 win team and Vinny will outplay any QB in practice. Chad is not a great practice player so Vinny vs. Chad is no contest in TC.

I remember that clear as day. Herm didnt have a clue what he had in Chad and Ill never forget later on int he year when Chad was lighting it up that c*cksucker herm said he always knew that was this good. Yea ok you arsehole then why didnt you make him start the season? You knew he was going to be that good yet you made him ride the pine until you had no choice. I wanted to punch his teeth down his mouth when I read that.

Anyone who couldn't seee he was motivating Chad doesn't have a clue. It's a problem Schottenheimer addressed w/ Chad this year- sometimes he overthinks and Herm was letting Chad know that.

Herm was looking for every excuse in the book in 2002 to take practice reps away from Chad and give them to Tory Woodbury. He said Chad was too "analytical" too "indecisive." As if Herm has a clue what he is talkign about when evaluating QBs

To his credit though, the one man who stood behind Chad the whole time was Hackette. He assured us that Chad was the real deal when the media was doubting him. It was pretty much's Hackette's plea to the moron Herm to get Vinny out of there and insert Chad.

When did he take practice reps of preseason game reps away from Chad?

[Biggs]

Mcnair became a passing QB under Dinger, prior to Dinger he was not a great passer and Dinger turned him onto an MVP.

If I'm not mistaken Dinger went to TN in 2000 or 01? McNair took them to the SB in 1999. How did Dinger do with Jake Plumber?

McNair started to break out as a top QB in 98 and TN did nothing under Dinger they hadn't done before he come except start to decline and McNair got killed in his system just like Chad and Feidler did. The difference is McNair is much bigger and stronger and could throw down field with guys hanging on him. The big difference in McNair's numbers had more to do with teaming Drew Bennett with Mason than anything Dinger did.

[nyjunc]

If I'm not mistaken Dinger went to TN in 2000 or 01? McNair took them to the SB in 1999. How did Dinger do with Jake Plumber?

McNair started to break out as a top QB in 98 and TN did nothing under Dinger they hadn't done before he come except start to decline and McNair got killed in his system just like Chad and Feidler did. The difference is McNair is much bigger and stronger and could throw down field with guys hanging on him. The big difference in McNair's numbers had more to do with teaming Drew Bennett with Mason than anything Dinger did.

McNair was a good QB before Dinger but he became a great QB and a top passer under Dinger. In '99 they were carried by a great D and Eddie George.

In 1999 Mcnair had 12 Tds and 8 INTs and only threw it 331 times. Dinger took over in '00 and his #s steadily rose. 58.7 was his highest comp % but in '00 he moved into the 60s(62.6 up from 56.5) and his career high in Tds was 15 and from '01-'03 he was in the 20s. he also was a 78.6 passer in '99 the rose to 83.2 in '00 and from '01-'03(his 3 best years) he had ratings of 90.2, 84 and 100.

Derrick Mason was a teammate of McNair for 3 seasons before Dinger and in year one w/ Dinger mason went from 47 CAREER recs w/ 3 TDs to 63 recs and 5 Tds in 2000.

as far as Plummer goes, he only had him this year and he's not the OC or QBs coach.

[SouthernJet]

I think the Time Space Continuum would collapse if NYJUNC, Scott Dierking and AirForceJetsFan got locked in a debate.

[Biggs]

McNair was a good QB before Dinger but he became a great QB and a top passer under Dinger. In '99 they were carried by a great D and Eddie George.

In 1999 Mcnair had 12 Tds and 8 INTs and only threw it 331 times. Dinger took over in '00 and his #s steadily rose. 58.7 was his highest comp % but in '00 he moved into the 60s(62.6 up from 56.5) and his career high in Tds was 15 and from '01-'03 he was in the 20s. he also was a 78.6 passer in '99 the rose to 83.2 in '00 and from '01-'03(his 3 best years) he had ratings of 90.2, 84 and 100.

Derrick Mason was a teammate of McNair for 3 seasons before Dinger and in year one w/ Dinger mason went from 47 CAREER recs w/ 3 TDs to 63 recs and 5 Tds in 2000.

as far as Plummer goes, he only had him this year and he's not the OC or QBs coach.

McNair only played in 11 games in 1999. Mason and McNairs Numbers went up when Drew Bennett came in and Eddie George was burning out. McNair made Dinger not the other way around. McNair was constantly making plays on the run when Dinger was the OC and not by design.

[#27TheDominator]

Since when isn't Pennington a good practice player? If he sucks so bad in practice how did he outplay everyone so easily this year? Vinny outperforms everybody in practice? I never heard that one either. The only time I ever heard that Chad wasn't performing well in practice came out of Herm's mouth when he said Chad was too cautious and should just let it rip.

My recollection of the Ellis to DT swap was that Herm thought he could be "another Warren Sapp" (bowling ball with butcher knives?) and made him bulk up for the 3 technique. As far as I remember, the experiment was such a failure that it was over before the end of camp. Why do you say Abe to DE was a good move? Was that sarcasm? When was he anything else? I don't remember them saying they drafted Thomas to take Ellis' place at DE. I actually remember some stupid Herm quotes about how you can never have enough pass rushers-even though at the time he didn't explain how they were all going to play at the same time.

[Biggs]

I actually remember some stupid Herm quotes about how you can never have enough pass rushers-even though at the time he didn't explain how they were all going to play at the same time.

Maybe he should have moved Thomas to OLB?

[nyjunc]

McNair only played in 11 games in 1999. Mason and McNairs Numbers went up when Drew Bennett came in and Eddie George was burning out. McNair made Dinger not the other way around. McNair was constantly making plays on the run when Dinger was the OC and not by design.

Bennett was the key? His 24, 33 and 32 recs from'00-'02 were the differenc but not Dinger?

Since when isn't Pennington a good practice player? If he sucks so bad in practice how did he outplay everyone so easily this year? Vinny outperforms everybody in practice? I never heard that one either. The only time I ever heard that Chad wasn't performing well in practice came out of Herm's mouth when he said Chad was too cautious and should just let it rip.

Watch Chad throw passes then watch Vinny and tell me which one would look more impressive in a practice atmosphere? Vinny is one of the most physically gifted QBs to EVER play the game.

My recollection of the Ellis to DT swap was that Herm thought he could be "another Warren Sapp" (bowling ball with butcher knives?)

The "bowling ball..." comment was made by Warren Sapp of Dewayne Robertson.

Why do you say Abe to DE was a good move? Was that sarcasm? When was he anything else?

He was an OLB in his rookie year.

[SouthernJet]

[BP]

:rl:

[#27TheDominator]

Watch Chad throw passes then watch Vinny and tell me which one would look more impressive in a practice atmosphere? Vinny is one of the most physically gifted QBs to EVER play the game.

No kidding. Vinny has always been impressive. Except when he throws the ball to the other team. IF his physical gifts made such a big deal he'd be one of the greatest of all time instead of Jeff George with slightly more longevity.

The "bowling ball..." comment was made by Warren Sapp of Dewayne Robertson.

No kidding. My point was that Herm was always looking for the next Warren Sapp instead of playing a defense that might work with the personnel he has. Why mess around with a DE that just had a very good season instead of picking up a FA DT? Ellis looked like he'd was going to be a pro-bowl level end and they screwed around with him for no reason, hurting his development and that of the whole DL for years. Sort of like dumping your pro-bowl cb because he isn't the best tackler in the NFL.

He was an OLB in his rookie year.

As far as I remember Abraham was a stand up end in college. The kind that probably has to play 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. Like Bryan Thomas. I don't remember him playing much LB on the Jets. Maybe as a rookie, but I think they mostly rushed him as a down lineman. They dropped him in coverage on occaision, but not as a general practice. He took #94 because he was a lineman, not an LB. I'm sure it wasn't his worship of Scott Merserau.

[nyjunc]

No kidding. Vinny has always been impressive. Except when he throws the ball to the other team. IF his physical gifts made such a big deal he'd be one of the greatest of all time instead of Jeff George with slightly more longevity.

That is the point, put Chad vs. Vinny in practice and Vinny looks much better but in a game where it's more than just physical Chad is better.

No kidding. My point was that Herm was always looking for the next Warren Sapp instead of playing a defense that might work with the personnel he has. Why mess around with a DE that just had a very good season instead of picking up a FA DT? Ellis looked like he'd was going to be a pro-bowl level end and they screwed around with him for no reason, hurting his development and that of the whole DL for years. Sort of like dumping your pro-bowl cb because he isn't the best tackler in the NFL.

it didn't set Shaun back too far, he became a PBer in 2003. We had mor 4-3 personnel this year and mangini converted us to 3-4- coaches do that. It took half a season for the guys to get it and we still have missing pieces that we'll need to acquire.

As far as I remember Abraham was a stand up end in college. The kind that probably has to play 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. Like Bryan Thomas. I don't remember him playing much LB on the Jets. Maybe as a rookie, but I think they mostly rushed him as a down lineman. They dropped him in coverage on occaision, but not as a general practice. He took #94 because he was a lineman, not an LB. I'm sure it wasn't his worship of Scott Merserau.

he was an OLB as a rookie, basically a guy who only came in on 3rd downs to rush the passer. He never played every down and got hurt in game 6 I think and missed the rest of the year.

[#27TheDominator]

That is the point, put Chad vs. Vinny in practice and Vinny looks much better but in a game where it's more than just physical Chad is better.

Why? Brains don't count in practice? Vinny isn't a choker. He's just kinda dumb. Coaches couldn't figure that out in practice?

it didn't set Shaun back too far, he became a PBer in 2003. We had mor 4-3 personnel this year and mangini converted us to 3-4- coaches do that. It took half a season for the guys to get it and we still have missing pieces that we'll need to acquire.

You may be right that it didn't set Ellis back, but you're wrong about changing schemes. I've complained about the 3-4 not suiting our personnel this year, but there is a huge difference between taking over a 9-7 team and taking over a 4-12 team. When you are 9-7 you are usually in the playoffs or a game out. When you are 4-12 you are starting from scratch, so you might as well install whatever system you want.

he was an OLB as a rookie, basically a guy who only came in on 3rd downs to rush the passer. He never played every down and got hurt in game 6 I think and missed the rest of the year.

Yep, I agree. He came in on 3rd down to rush the passer. He didn't play much LB.

[nyjunc]

Why? Brains don't count in practice? Vinny isn't a choker. He's just kinda dumb. Coaches couldn't figure that out in practice?

You aren't going live against an opposing D, it's harder to see the smarts in practice.

You may be right that it didn't set Ellis back, but you're wrong about changing schemes. I've complained about the 3-4 not suiting our personnel this year, but there is a huge difference between taking over a 9-7 team and taking over a 4-12 team. When you are 9-7 you are usually in the playoffs or a game out. When you are 4-12 you are starting from scratch, so you might as well install whatever system you want.

We had alot more than 4-12 talent, when healthy 2 years ago we were a kick away from the title game. We won 4 mainly due to disastrous injuries. In '00 we won 3 miracle comeback games and lost 6 of 9 to end the season, we were alot worse than a 9-7 team.