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First off,these threads were merged.Boom Boom said to trade Vilma.I'm saying we should have gone 4-3.I like Vilma......in the 4-3.

But,look at your statement above,then look at the numbers posted for Vilma in 05-06,then look again at your post,then look at the #'s again,then tell me if you stand by that statement.

In the 4-3 Vilma was put in a position to stop a play 124 times,as indicated by his solo tackles.That number was cut in half in 06,where he was 2nd or 3rd man to the play,piling on.That's not a playmaker.

In other words solo tackles=big plays for a linebacker.

Big plays in 05 in the 4-3,which he thrived in in college,124.

In 06,66

Thats becuase his job is different... the OLB's are going to have an easier time getting to the runner first in most cases... you seem to forget how much Vilma has to drop back and pick up the slot receiver/TE....

Vilma was not Stellar but was effective this year, and with his friendly contract, work ethic and ability to improve it would be silly to not give him a 2nd year in the system...

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Thats becuase his job is different... the OLB's are going to have an easier time getting to the runner first in most cases... you seem to forget how much Vilma has to drop back and pick up the slot receiver/TE....

Vilma was not Stellar but was effective this year, and with his friendly contract, work ethic and ability to improve it would be silly to not give him a 2nd year in the system...

Agreed.

He's too smart, too athletic, and too much of a leader to just throw to the birds in hopes of a new draft pick. Come on guys, remember some past drafts with the jets (tangini did a great job last year, but who knows, we might draft Joey Harrington, and Mike Williams)

on that note...matt millen sucks...

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He made a mental mistake by going for the strip instead of smashing the body, and he has admitted as much.

He also was not the coverage guy on that playfake play.

Your agenda is pretty obvious here, and so is your poor analysis.

Dont bother.

no agenda whatsoever, just trying to be objective about what i see and dont see. hes obviously a solid player, but act like Jonathan Vilma is the second coming of (insert name of greatest LB's ever) is simply wrong. hes not even the second coming of Mo Lewis or Marvin Jones (although they were pretty good).

Mangenious- Vilma can lead the Jets in tackles till the cows come home, it wont change my opinion of him until he starts making meaningful ones.

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hes not even the second coming of Mo Lewis or Marvin Jones (although they were pretty good).

Your stuck in the 90's mate. :)

Wilma had a decent year in a new system, were you really expecting more??? ITs not like the guy played like crap... not to mention he had to learn how to practically coach the system to his teamates on the field and learn how to play it....

Vilma is the type of guy when given a full season and offseason to learn a system he will no doubt do better next season, we will not get enough value for him leaving... He runs the D, he did have 116 tackles and will do better next year...

Remember guys, Mangini has won RINGS as a defensive coach... second guess him all you want but the fact remains he knows more about how a defense works than me or you.

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Thats becuase his job is different... the OLB's are going to have an easier time getting to the runner first in most cases... you seem to forget how much Vilma has to drop back and pick up the slot receiver/TE....

Vilma was not Stellar but was effective this year, and with his friendly contract, work ethic and ability to improve it would be silly to not give him a 2nd year in the system...

and my take is:

change the system and make him stellar again!

There's no reason to settle for average when he's a pro bowler in a different system.

the argument that the 3-4 is superior is going to fall on def ears too until we rank higher than 24th against the run and stop making Ronnie Brown look like LT.

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Ohh,I was reading that wrong! lol I thought Bruschi smashed Strahan's recored by 36 sacks!! lol

but,anyway Vilma really destroyed these guys in 05.In the 4-3

To clarify your last statement. Only Urlacher and Edwards played all 16 games in 05. Bruschi and Lewis missed more than 6 games each.

However, for the sake of comparison:

Urlacher 05

Total -- 121 Solo -- 97 Assist -- 24 Sacks -- 6 Int -- 0 Pass D -- 5 FF -- 1

Edwards 05

Total -- 152 Solo --112 Assist -- 40 Sacks -- 3 Int -- 2 Pass D -- 9 FF -- 0

Vilma 05

Total -- 169 Solo -- 124 Assist -- 45 Sacks -- .5 Int -- 1 Pass D 5 FF --4

There is no doubt that 05 was Vilma's biggest tackle year. But given the fact that Vilma got more opportunities to make tackles because the Jets D stank last season I hardly think you can accurately claim that he destroyed Edwards statistically in 05.

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Your stuck in the 90's mate. :)

Wilma had a decent year in a new system, were you really expecting more??? ITs not like the guy played like crap... not to mention he had to learn how to practically coach the system to his teamates on the field and learn how to play it....

Vilma is the type of guy when given a full season and offseason to learn a system he will no doubt do better next season, we will not get enough value for him leaving... He runs the D, he did have 116 tackles and will do better next year...

Remember guys, Mangini has won RINGS as a defensive coach... second guess him all you want but the fact remains he knows more about how a defense works than me or you.

im not talking about Mangini, i like Mangini alot, im talking about Jets fans overrating Vilma. hes an alright player, a piece of the puzzle, but hes not the be all end all player. hes solid, nothing more. to think he'll take over a game or singlehandedly win a game is wrong, thats a group effort on this team, and he needs to be part of it. hes not superman for christ sake, hes just solid, nothing wrong with that, but too overrated by Jets fans.

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and my take is:

change the system and make him stellar again!

There's no reason to settle for average when he's a pro bowler in a different system.

the argument that the 3-4 is superior is going to fall on def ears too until we rank higher than 24th against the run and stop making Ronnie Brown look like LT.

Right... your being very short sighted ....

So what exactly would happen to our newly found 3-4 LB playmaker Bryan Thomas?? Kerry Rhodes also did better with this defense... Not to mention most were calling Drob a bust and at the end of the year he was getting praise around the league for good NT play...

Not to mention Mangini is a 3-4 Minded coach...

So you want to throw out our new great coaches history with the 3-4 and have him start fresh on the 4-3... make all of the players go back to ANOTHER new system (no system is alike, Herms 4-3 would not be Manginis 4-3)

This is Madden 07' its not as simple as choosing your defensive playbook and POOF it works...

Lets keep stepping foreward rather than taking another leap back...

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Right... your being very short sighted ....

So what exactly would happen to our newly found 3-4 LB playmaker Bryan Thomas?? Kerry Rhodes also did better with this defense... Not to mention most were calling Drob a bust and at the end of the year he was getting praise around the league for good NT play...

Not to mention Mangini is a 3-4 Minded coach...

So you want to throw out our new great coaches history with the 3-4 and have him start fresh on the 4-3... make all of the players go back to ANOTHER new system (no system is alike, Herms 4-3 would not be Manginis 4-3)

This is Madden 07' its not as simple as choosing your defensive playbook and POOF it works...

Lets keep stepping foreward rather than taking another leap back...

No,i guess there is no turning back now.

In your opinion,first,are you OK with our run defense last year?And I mean beginning to end,including Christmas day when Ronnie Brown went nuts.

Second,what will we do to improve on that?

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No,i guess there is no turning back now.

In your opinion,first,are you OK with our run defense last year?And I mean beginning to end,including Christmas day when Ronnie Brown went nuts.

Second,what will we do to improve on that?

Lance:

You seem to be feel that since Vilma's performance was down that the entire 06 D playing the 3-4 was worse than the 05 D playing the 4-3. Here is a comparison of the D performance in both season with emphasis given to rushing D.

05 06

Rushing First Downs 136 111

3rd Down conversion 88/212 41% 76/208 36%

Avg yd per carry 3.9 4.6

Avg Opponent Time of Poss. 33:23 28.57

I think these stats support a few conclusions:

1st the rushing D was more than half a yd better in 05 than 06

2nd Despite the weakness of the run D the over all defensive performance improved in

using the 3-4 in 06

3rd Defensive tackle numbers for 05 are skewed by the fact that the D was on the field

for 4:30 minutes longer per game than in 06.

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3rd Defensive tackle numbers for 05 are skewed by the fact that the D was on the field

for 4:30 minutes longer per game than in 06.

I think probably everything was skewed by the fact that we started a third string QB and couldn't keep the D off the field.

Hey,we are where we are now.I'd like to know what you think we should do or will do to improve our run defense from 24th in the league.(that is a serious question that i'd like your opinion on,not meant to be sarcastic)

also,just out of curiousity,where did our d rank in 04,a more respectable year.

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No,i guess there is no turning back now.

In your opinion,first,are you OK with our run defense last year?And I mean beginning to end,including Christmas day when Ronnie Brown went nuts.

Second,what will we do to improve on that?

Time and learning is most important, the players need to get a feel for Mangini's system and Mangini needs to get a feel for what all of the players are capable of...

Add a little more depth to the DL, specifically a DE replacement for Kimo... maybe an OLB... if one of our RCB's cant be a starter then get one... those parts and some more time and we should be pretty well off on D...

You need to look at the big picture... our RCB's were playing very far off the WR this year becuase the coaches couldnt trust them, thereofore when you run to their side, if someone cuts off the OLB, its a 10yd + run until the DB can get to them...

Beleive it or not just adding a more solid RCB would improve the YPC against us... We could run blitz some more...

Drob is not the big fat guy up front to stuff the run, but he was really coming around... if we can find a fat guy to draft or pick up then good, if not I think him and Moore can be serviceable... Drob actually adds a little pass rush at the NT position which is hard to defend...

Remember too, Mangini has never been a HC before... you can rest assured he will work hard at improving his coaching as well.

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Time and learning is most important, the players need to get a feel for Mangini's system and Mangini needs to get a feel for what all of the players are capable of...

Add a little more depth to the DL, specifically a DE replacement for Kimo... maybe an OLB... if one of our RCB's cant be a starter then get one... those parts and some more time and we should be pretty well off on D...

You need to look at the big picture... our RCB's were playing very far off the WR this year becuase the coaches couldnt trust them, thereofore when you run to their side, if someone cuts off the OLB, its a 10yd + run until the DB can get to them...

Beleive it or not just adding a more solid RCB would improve the YPC against us... We could run blitz some more...

Drob is not the big fat guy up front to stuff the run, but he was really coming around... if we can find a fat guy to draft or pick up then good, if not I think him and Moore can be serviceable... Drob actually adds a little pass rush at the NT position which is hard to defend...

Remember too, Mangini has never been a HC before... you can rest assured he will work hard at improving his coaching as well.

Only to emphasize your point. If you look at the Vikings, their pass defense looked bad, cause everyone threw on them. But with a healthy Fred Smoot, and Winfield playing up at the line, that was a great 1-2 punch. (its not the best example because they got torn up in the secondary, but that was mostly the slot reciver doing the damage anyway)

The Jets are close to that, as you said get a RCB like Clements or Samuel, and we are all of a sudden a very tough defense. (ok, i realize either of them would play LCB and Dyson would move to the right...either way)

Look at what the Ravens did with McAllister, and Rolle. They piled up sacks all year.

Regardless of what people think of Vilma, we get another Corner, this D will be extermly tough.

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Right... your being very short sighted ....

So what exactly would happen to our newly found 3-4 LB playmaker Bryan Thomas?? Kerry Rhodes also did better with this defense... Not to mention most were calling Drob a bust and at the end of the year he was getting praise around the league for good NT play...

Not to mention Mangini is a 3-4 Minded coach...

So you want to throw out our new great coaches history with the 3-4 and have him start fresh on the 4-3... make all of the players go back to ANOTHER new system (no system is alike, Herms 4-3 would not be Manginis 4-3)

This is Madden 07' its not as simple as choosing your defensive playbook and POOF it works...

Lets keep stepping foreward rather than taking another leap back...

3-4 is not the right scheme for these kinds of players. Robertson did ok at the end of the year but he got manhandled in the playoff game and more likely you'll see more of that next year unless the Jets can get a space-eater DE to play alongside him.

Rhodes improved this year because he had a year of experience under his belt. Not because of the 3-4, he's a safety by the way, not a front 7 player

Your best argument is Bryan Thomas but who knows it could have just been a contract year.

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sad to say that these sorta things effect my thought procesees, but I too just bought my Vilma Jersey and being as the last Jersey I bought was a Santana Moss (6 days before he was sent packing) I wouldnt want to lose my investment again....looking for some ROI on this one

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3-4 is not the right scheme for these kinds of players. Robertson did ok at the end of the year but he got manhandled in the playoff game and more likely you'll see more of that next year unless the Jets can get a space-eater DE to play alongside him.

Rhodes improved this year because he had a year of experience under his belt. Not because of the 3-4, he's a safety by the way, not a front 7 player

Your best argument is Bryan Thomas but who knows it could have just been a contract year.

And victor hobson having a career year had nothing to do with the 34? You saying Rhodes is not in the front 7 doesn't really matter. in a 34, as i hope you kno, you send blitzers from all over. More often than not Rhodes was at the line of scrimmage at the time of his blitz. In a 43, it is easier to pick up these guys. yes, even safeties.

Saying Robertson got manhandled is an overstatement. Even if you put an all pro nose tackle in for Robertson, it doesn't change the fact that he was playing next to KIMO. That guy sucks, not many players can do much with that standing next to them. If the Jets get one more Linemen, either End, or Tackle, they will get a lot more production out of not just the 3, but also the Backers (including Vilma).

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I think probably everything was skewed by the fact that we started a third string QB and couldn't keep the D off the field.

Hey,we are where we are now.I'd like to know what you think we should do or will do to improve our run defense from 24th in the league.(that is a serious question that i'd like your opinion on,not meant to be sarcastic)

also,just out of curiousity,where did our d rank in 04,a more respectable year.

Your first statement is exactly the point I was making. You cant decide the 3-4 isnt a good scheme for the Jets because Vilma's numbers in are down from 05 because the offense was so bad in 05 that the D was on the field too long giving Vilma a lot more opportunities to make plays.

As for what the Jets can do to improve the run D next season I cant really add anything to the list in a post above.

More quality and depth at D line, another good CB, etc.

I think if Pouha or someone else can be as or almost as effective at NT as Robertson, allowing him to move out to DE and Kimo to move to the bench then the run D will improve a good deal without other adjustments. Better coverage will allow us to commit more guys to stopping the run which will also help.

The NT doesnt have to be a world beater and neither does the new CB, they just need to be improvements. However, I really dont expect the Run D to all of a sudden jump up into the top 10 next season.

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