How much credit does Herm/Bradway get?

[BoomBoomMancini]

For getting us to the playoffs..

I was speaking with a Cheifs fan(I have been wasting time on messageboards all week as I am visiting my aunt for this week, going back to college tommorow) and they say that Herm molded this team, and he may be right..

Most of the players on this team were brought in by Herm/Bradway

Vilma/Kendall/Rhodes/Cotchery/Coles/Houston

[Arsis]

he inherited a better team than he left.

[war ensemble]

Herm gets the credit of screwing us over and over again when we should have won if we had a competent coach. Bradway gave us a talented team that could've gone all the way if it wasn't for Herm. Don't thank Herm for anything.

[Pragmatic Bus]

the players that were brought in by bill parcell those same player are playing. herm brought in justin mccereins hows he doin lately

[BP]

All I have to say to that is..what would Herman Edwards have done with the 06 Jets..

there would have been no Nick Mangold..Abraham and Mawae would still be here..he would have soiled himself when he heard the news about Curtis Martin.so god knows what him and Bradway would have done to get another running back.

It would have been night and day..not just the coaching,but who would have been on the team

[SeniorFlaJet]

You can go round and round all nite as to who the players would have been .

The main reason would have been the coaching. It would have been

Club Edwards all over again as it was in 05. The injuries would have piled up

and Bollinger would have ended up as the QB again.

The main discussion on the board as this time would be who do we take with the

second pick in the draft.

[Smizzy]

I Piss on HERM & TERRY !!

[BP]

And Herm and Terry have been virtually kicked in the ass

[BoomBoomMancini]

Here is what the Chiefs fan on the ESPN messageboard had to say

If you want to say that Herm inherited a team that went 10 games over .500 in the four previous years, that's fine, because it's true. The Parcells/Belichick/Groh regime, in the 4 years from 1997 to 2000, went 9-7, 12-4, 8-8, and 9-7 respectively.

To complain about people spindoctoring Herm's tenure by saying he inherited a playoff team is not accurate, however. The 4 years of Parcells/Belichick/Groh only went to the playoffs ONCE, in the 12-4 campaign of 1998. The two teams prior to Herm, Parcells 1999 squad (Vinny's season-ending achillies injury) and Al Groh's mutiny filled 2000 squad did NOT make the playoffs. In fact, Herm's 3 playoff apperances are more than the SIX previous Jet coaches (Coslet, Carroll, Kotite, Parcells, Belichick, and Groh) combined. Throw in Joe Walton's 7 years and the ledger looks like this:

New York Jets, 1983-2000:

13 years, 7 head coaches, 4 playoff apperances, 2-4 playoff record

New York Jets, 2001-2005:

5 years, 1 head coach, 3 playoff appearances, 2-3 playoff record

------------------------------------------

Now before you jump on me for saying that "well, even if he didn't inherit a PLAYOFF team, at least he inherited a GOOD team, look at what he did inherit. Parcells, despite only making the playoffs one year out of three, did assemble a d.amn good 1998 Jets squad that was on the verge of a championship, and likely would have made the playoffs again in 1999 if not for the aforementioned Vinny injury (assuming Vinny put together two good seasons in a row, something he's never once done in his whole life including at the U.)

The 1998 Jets two-deep looked like this:

QB-Vinny Testaverde, Glenn Foley

RB-Curtis Martin, Leon Johnson

FB-Richie Anderson, Jerald Sowell

WR-Keyshawn Johnson, Dedric Ward

WR-Wayne Chrebet, Alex Van ****

TE-Kyle Brady, Fred Baxter

T-Jumbo Elliot

G-Kerry Jenkins, Todd Burger

C-Kevin Mawae, John Hudson

G-Matt O'Dwyer, Mike Gisler

T-Jason Fabini

DE-Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton

DT-Jason Ferguson, Ernie Logan

DE-Rick Lyle, Dorian Boose

OLB-Chad Cascadden, Dwayne Gordon

ILB-Pepper Johnson, James Farrior

ILB-Bryan Cox, Rob Holmberg

OLB-Mo Lewis, Eric Ogbogu

CB-Aaron Glenn, Otis Smith

CB-Marcus Coleman, Ray Mickens

FS-Corwin Brown, Kevin Williams

SS-Victor Green, Scott Frost

Vinny had a 101 rating that year, Curtis ran for 1200 yards, Key and Wayne each topped 1000, we had a strong OL, a deep front seven, and one of the best secondaries in the league. Also, worth noting that Marvin Jones missed 1998 with an injury.

The 2001 team that Herm inherited looked like this:

QB-Vinny Testaverde, Chad Pennington

RB-Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan

FB-Richie Anderson, Jerald Sowell

WR-Laveranues Coles, Kevin Swayne

WR-Wayne Chrebet, Matthew Hatchette, Santana Moss

TE-Anthony Becht, Daniel Wilcox

T-Jason Fabini

G-Kerry Jenkins, David Loverne

C-Kevin Mawae, J.P. Machado

G-Randy Thomas, Dan Goodspeed

T-Ryan Young, Kareem McKenzie

DE-Shaun Ellis

DT-Jason Ferguson, Steve Martin

DT-Shane Burton, James Reed

DE-Rick Lyle, Eric Ogbogu

OLB-John Abraham, Jason Glenn

MLB-Marvin Jones, James Farrior

OLB-Mo Lewis, James Darling

CB-Aaron Glenn, Ray Mickens

CB-Marcus Coleman, Jamie Henderson

FS-Damien Robinson, Nick Ferguson

SS-Victor Green, Chris Hayes

On offense, replacing Keyshawn with Coles/Moss/Hatchette is a step back, and not having Key around hurt Wayne's game. Becht for Brady is also a loss. Penny and Jordan are talent upgrades as backups but green as hell. The OL is younger but the same in talent. Front seven is more talented but green and not as deep, also Robinson for Brown is a step back and again, less depth.

Comparing the 1998 team with the 2001 team, Herm inherited decent talent, but not the quality of team of 1998. Good veterans that played big roles on the 1998 near title team, like Keyshawn, Jumbo Elliot, Matt O'Dwyer, Anthony Pleasant, Bryan Cox, Otis Smith, and Corwin Brown were replaced by youngsters who did not have the consistent high level of play, as evidenced by the Jets going 9-7 during Al Groh's single, major injury free campaign where we missed the playoffs after a 1-3 December. Also, due to cap considerations, more key pieces left over Herm's first two years (Kerry Jenkins, Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman, Victor Green, Rick Lyle, Shane Burton, Ryan Young, James Farrior, Randy Thomas, Laveranues Coles, Richie Anderson), most if not all of them replaced with inferior and less experienced players.

Fact is, real quick into Herm's administration, we were missing big bunches of the key pieces of the great 1998 AFC East champs. The only real holdovers from Parcells were Curtis, Vinny, Mawae, Fabini, Chrebet, Marvin Jones, Mo Lewis, and Jason Ferguson - everybody else of note was gone within a year or two of Herm and Bradway's arrival, and half of those holdovers were old, injury prone, and regressing and didn't do much for Herm at all (Vinny, Chrebet, Jones, and Lewis.)

Minus Curtis, Mawae, Fabini, and Ferguson, the key cogs of the Herm Jets were all basically newbies - Penny, Quincy Carter, Coles, Moss, Jordan, Baker, McKenzie, Szott, Kendall, Ellis, Abraham, Bryan Thomas, Josh Evans, D-Rob, Vilma, Hobson, Cowart, Barton, Donnie Abe, Beasley, Barrett, Adrian Jones, Brandon Moore, Reggie Tongue... Some of these guys were drafted by Parcells in 2000, but most of them never played for Parcells/Belichick/Groh and have to be put in the Edwards/Bradway column.

Compare the losses with the additions, and it's clear the team Herm got was almost completely disconnected from Parcells and his lieutenants. Any time someone says Herm only won with Parcells players, well, that list of Parcells players Herm won with should be 4 players long: Curtis, Mawae, Fabini, and Ferguson. With where we were, what we lost, what we replaced it with, and what we accomplished, Herm's tenure should be considered a success, because whether all that leads you to the conlusion that our talent level either stayed the same or, more likely, went down, Herm still accomplished more and got his team closer, more frequently, to the Lombardi trophy than any Jet coach since Michaels and Walton in the early 80's. Tuna's administration was good (and unlucky). So was Herm's.

He worked hard on this post..

[Bugg]

I like saying Eric

Ogbogu

.

Hey guy, don't keep all the Ogbogu -share it!

I saw a flock of Ogbogu fly over head.

Today Congress declared war on the tiny African island of Ogbogu.

All you need is Ogbogu.

[RSJ]

He worked hard on this post..

And I'm going to destroy it fast by just asking you to take a look at what Pete Carroll did after Parcells left New England. Pete Carroll's record was actually better than Herm's post Parcell's. I think the point is Parcells has a great eye for talent and a great ability to develop players. Therefor he leaves talented teams behind.

Herm sucks.

[Arsis]

He worked hard on this post..

Too bad all that free time and work ethic is wasted on a moron.

[James Hasty]

The 2001 team that Herm inherited looked like this:

QB-Vinny Testaverde, Chad Pennington

RB-Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan

FB-Richie Anderson, Jerald Sowell

WR-Laveranues Coles, Kevin Swayne

WR-Wayne Chrebet, Matthew Hatchette, Santana Moss

TE-Anthony Becht, Daniel Wilcox

T-Jason Fabini

G-Kerry Jenkins, David Loverne

C-Kevin Mawae, J.P. Machado

G-Randy Thomas, Dan Goodspeed

T-Ryan Young, Kareem McKenzie

DE-Shaun Ellis

DT-Jason Ferguson, Steve Martin

DT-Shane Burton, James Reed

DE-Rick Lyle, Eric Ogbogu

OLB-John Abraham, Jason Glenn

MLB-Marvin Jones, James Farrior

OLB-Mo Lewis, James Darling

CB-Aaron Glenn, Ray Mickens

CB-Marcus Coleman, Jamie Henderson

FS-Damien Robinson, Nick Ferguson

SS-Victor Green, Chris Hayes

You are forgetting about the players that Herm inherited and cut to install his 3-4 defense. Roman Phifer and Bryan Cox were key contributors to the Patsies Superbowl victory that year since Herm felt that they were expendable. In later years, Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman, Laverneous Coles, Kareem McKenzie, James Farrior, Kerry Jenkins, Randy Thomas, Eric Obogu, Victor Green, Jason Fergeson, and Lamont Jordan were also considered expendable. Santan Moss of course was traded to the Redskins to get Coles back (yes it's true we had both of them at the same time once).

Rich Kotite could have won a championship with the talent that Herm threw away let alone the guys he kept.

[Cotch-Rocket]

I give them credit for bringing in a lot of the talent we have now, but at the same time, I blame them for not using them to full potential: Jerricho Cotchery, Bryan Thomas, Kerry Rhodes, etc. Yes, they brought this talent in, but this talent truly shines under Mangini and Tannenbaum.

[snow_monkey]

I'm amazed that there is still people out there that take Herm seriously. The man is a joke. A joke that's been told so many times, it's not even funny any more.

As for the team Herm had here...yes, the front office did some good moves. And some bad ones. Usually they over paid for what they got. And Herm then wasted every bit of talent he got his incompetent hands on.

[PeterNorth09]

If you want to give someone in the previous regime credit give credit to Terry Bradway, not Herm Edwards. Herm was not the GM. He was an average NFL head coach here who inherited a good roster from Parcells and got lucky making the playoffs a couple times with Chad Pennington and Curtis Martin both in their primes.

Did Bradway make some bad moves? Sure he did. Trading two 1st round picks and a 4th round pick for Dewayne Robertson was probably the worst. The Jolley trade was pretty brutal too as where some of his free agent signings like Aaron Beasley and Damien Robinson. He could have hired a much better coaching staff than Herm Edwards and Paul Hackett.

Bradway did make some excellent moves in the draft. Jonathan Vilma, Kerry Rhodes, Santana Moss, Lamont Jordan, Kareem Mackenzie, Mike Nugent and Jerricho Cotchery. Some of his free agent signings worked out well (Eric Barton, Pete Kendall).

The 2006 Jets were mostly Bradway's players so he does deserve some of the credit though most of last season's success can be attributed to Pennington coming back from the shoulder injury and the easy schedule.

[Sperm Edwards]

I'm amazed that there is still people out there that take Herm seriously. The man is a joke. A joke that's been told so many times, it's not even funny any more.

As for the team Herm had here...yes, the front office did some good moves. And some bad ones. Usually they over paid for what they got. And Herm then wasted every bit of talent he got his incompetent hands on.

I don't see how anyone can watch a football game that Herm Edwards is coaching and seriously conclude he is the difference-maker that turns the team from mediocre/bad into good.

As for this or that player being "green" when Herm got them...almost ALL his rookies (save Vilma) were "green" because Herm wouldn't play them unless there was no one else healthy on the team.

I thought it was cute how Herm gets credit for Pennington, Abraham, Ellis, Coles, etc. And how someone like Ellis (who had 8.5 sacks as a rookie) and Abraham (with 4.5 in 6 games) were "green" and were somehow destined to be no-talent nothings until Herm got his hands on them.

How every replacement from the '98 team that was there in '01 was a downgrade. Not necessarily because they WERE downgrades, but because Herm didn't coach them to be as good then the personnel must be worse. And further, how every departure was due to cap considerations & not Herm/Bradway's lack of eye for player talent or necessity, and changed the entire offensive & defensive schemes with a veteran, win-now team built for totally different styles. That coach "You-can-never-have-enough-defensive-backs" Edwards insisted that the team not go nuts over, and then lowball, a young James Farrior (who would become a dominant defender with Pittsburgh) and instead give nickel-back Ray Mickens ($3M/yr) 50% more than they ever offered Farrior ($2M/yr). But sure. Farrior was lost because of the salary cap. Right.

And all the other "departures" are lumped in like this to shift blame off these two boobs. Much like how Groh's 9-7 team that failed to make the playoffs was an utter failure; and Herm's 9-7 team that squeaked in on a 3-way tie-breaker is the by-product of his exemplary coaching.

I am so glad these two are not in their former positions with our Jets.

[Jetlag]

I feel that if you sincerely watched the Jets between 2001 -2005 and can't tell the difference between that and 2006 well then you will never understand what constitutes good football or more specifically a good football team. For that I feel sorry for those people and would only say that they should stop watching football because they will never understand the game.

[green_blood]

you know something funny, until 2 years ago, we all loved herm. bradway was a good talent evaluator, but overpaid for a lot of players *cough cough* dewayne.

[Miamipuck]

I feel that if you sincerely watched the Jets between 2001 -2005 and can't tell the difference between that and 2006 well then you will never understand what constitutes good football or more specifically a good football team. For that I feel sorry for those people and would only say that they should stop watching football because they will never understand the game.

This is well said. If you can not tell the difference in coaching, then I do not know what to say. It was palpable. Anyone that can say Herm was a good coach has no understanding of football let alone any other sport.

[shutout]

until 2 years ago, we all loved herm.

That is not true. There were plenty of people who have hated Herm since the very beginning

[Bugg]

you know something funny, until 2 years ago, we all loved herm. bradway was a good talent evaluator, but overpaid for a lot of players *cough cough* dewayne.

No offense, but with all of 31 posts you may not understand that the split Edwards caused among the Jets fan base is one , if not the, primary reason this site exists in the first place. And cash grabs of $55 a pop for warmed-over NY Post beat writer jelly-donut stained team notes(another thread or 200, another day). No matter-most of the people on this site knew Edwards was a disaster by at least 2002 if not sooner, and Mangini/Tannenbaum are major improvement.We used to be on the effin' side of a Thomas Jones trade(Cols/Moss/Jordan, et al).

[Jet Moses]

you know something funny, until 2 years ago, we all loved herm.

No, you're wrong.

Sept. 9 2001, Colts vs. Jets, I was one of the throng booing Herman Edwards at halftime. Pathetic and disgraceful performance. The Jets stumbled to a 10-6 finish and made the playoffs, ok, fair enough. So I listened to all the apologists who said "Herm will have the team ready to go in 2002, have faith in Herm blah blah and rah rah". Opening day, this time against the Patriots, same thing. Embarrassed. Humiliated.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

Of course we know what happened in 2002. In a last ditch effort to save his *ss, Herm calculated that if he put Chad in there (who he had zero confidence in), once of two things would happen, and both would save his *ss:

1. The Jets would rebound

2. The Jets would continue to flounder, but at least he'd have an excuse- I started an inexperienced QB.

I'm the one who started all the "Kool Aid" talk. Everybody was riding Herm's jock like he did something special, but even the Kool Aid drinkers called the 2002 AFCE title "Sht happens".

2003 Herm's Kool Aid drinkers gave him a pass for one of the worst coaching efforts ever in the history of the NFL. Even good ol' Woody gave him a contract extension.

2004- The Kool Aid kids were in their glory with the 5-0 start. The Jets finished 2-4 and once again, backdoored into the playoffs. Thats when Herm said "Enjoy the Kool Aid fellas". The smarmy prck.

We all saw the marvelous job Hermpes did in 2005. What more need be said? The guy was a phoney and a fraud. At best, their were moments where I tolerated him. I never "loved" him.

[GREENLANTERN]

For getting us to the playoffs..

I was speaking with a Cheifs fan(I have been wasting time on messageboards all week as I am visiting my aunt for this week, going back to college tommorow) and they say that Herm molded this team, and he may be right..

Most of the players on this team were brought in by Herm/Bradway

Vilma/Kendall/Rhodes/Cotchery/Coles/Houston

NONE.

[pjam76]

It's easy to bash Herm and Bradway because they are long gone and failed to do anything special in their time here. Then again, no coach in the past 30 years has really done anything special either. For all the credit Parcells is given, he took the Jets to the playoffs once and that was that.

For me it is a wait and see. The new regime has been here one year. THey coaching staff did a great job last year, but the Front office was avg. There is nobody they brought in besides Mangold that was that great. Most of the players who overachieved were not brought in by this regime. Maybe this season will be different, but who knows.

Mangini has had one season as an NFL head coach. If the Jets come out and go 10-6 again and get blown out in the wildcard game again, I'd say that he can get it done in the regular season.

If the Jets go out and wind up 7-9, I'd say it's a huge disappointment.

For me, it's wait and see. It's too early to say that this new regime is any different than those in the past. One season doesn't make anything special. It sure doesn't make anything special after a blow out wild card loss.

[MTJ06]

It's easy to bash Herm and Bradway because they are long gone and failed to do anything special in their time here. Then again, no coach in the past 30 years has really done anything special either. For all the credit Parcells is given, he took the Jets to the playoffs once and that was that.

quote]

Parcells coached this team for 3 years. Year one we almost made the playoffs, year 2 we go to conference championship, year 3 we lose our starting qb on opening day. What more did you expect.

The Jets were the laughing stock of the NFL when he took over and we have been respectable for a decade since. Im glad he came along when he did.