Herm having serious problems with Larry Johnson?

[Maxman]

Everything is all-or-nothing with you? It's either always play or always sit?

If a player can play & be effective, he should play. Abraham was protecting his (future) contract.

If a player can play & will be ineffictive, he should sit. Martin should have sat with 2 sprained ankles.

Have you read any of my posts? Ever? Seriously I am the last one here that is all or nothing. The world is not black and white, it is grey. I have typed that several times.

I am not saying that Curtis was the greatest back ever. I am saying that he is a Hall Of Famer that put together a really incredible career and did things that nobody else did. He stayed on the field and ran the ball 4 yards or so at a clip, over and over again.

Does that make him Jim Brown? Never said he was in that league.

I also liked Willie Randolph growing up. Knowing that he would be steady and hit .270, I admired that. Consistency is my thing maybe.

This doesn't address my initial point. I want the players to say that they can play even if they have a broken leg. Like a fighter going out for round 12. Giving up -- it can't be a thought. The coaches and the medical staff need to use common sense and logic.

We agree that Herm is at fault here. I just strongly disagree that Curtis should have had any input into the decision of when he played. That is a bad move imo.

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't get it. You now want Willie Randolph to be which - the HC or HB for the Jets? I'm confused now.

[Maxman]

I don't get it. You now want Willie Randolph to be which - the HC or HB for the Jets? I'm confused now.

Bro I couldn't be more clear on my stance.

Willie Randolph should be Running Backs Coach. DUH. lol.

[EM31]

Never complained? He was constantly lobbying every the offseason for more carries. How is that not complaining?

"Curtis needs more work in preseason"...

"Curtis' early injuries MIGHT be due to lack of work in preseason. Let's givce him more than 95% of the carries why don't we"...

"Curtis can only be effective in the 4th quarter if he is given more carries in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters doncha know"...

And so on and so forth.

Does Herm share some blame for the way things ended? Sure he does but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that when "the record" was in doubt that even an ineffective Curtis was going to be sent back in there because well, the record was in doubt. That was not a Herman Edwards record nor was it a Jets team record. That was a personal and individual record and it was clearly important to Curtis and therefore became important to the team.

Even last year he kept getting himself put in there until the record was out of reach and even after not practicing during the week. Herman fessed up to the idea that "the record" was something that they were aware of... Hey, how about playing some of the kids and take a game time look at what we have on the bench?

Seriously, Herm was a dope and almost certainly got Chad injured more seriously because he was afraid to make the management decision to go to the #3 guy. In order for that to happen he would actually have to be making a management decision. That said, I do not blame Herm for deferring to the wishes of of an intense competitor whose pursuit of the record books was probably second only to Emmit Smith in its intensity. No, Herm did not run Curtis' career into the ground, Curtis' pursuit of the record books did that job all for himself.

Did Curtis know he was being ineffective? Sure he did. We have enough after-the-fact evidence the season after the two high ankle sprains to be sure of that. Curtis admitted as much. Being ineffective was subordinate to the need to continue the streak. Which the consumate PR man was always too smart to admit to in the media.

The sack of sh1t just allowed the blame for his poor performances to get laid at the door of everyone else in Christendom last year.

But really, I have to stop sitting on the fence here and let you all know how I really feel.

Did we ever discuss how Curtis was the highest paid running back in the history of the NFL?

[baamf]

I'm under the impression that 90% of the people on this board have played sports at a reasonably high level.

POTW nom....

[Sperm Edwards]

POTW nom....

Well particularly now that ESPN considers eating hot dogs & playing poker to be sports.

[SouthernJet]

Well particularly now that ESPN considers eating hot dogs & playing poker to be sports.

I think he meant stoned

[jetophile]

...Kyle Turley is finished...

"Memories, may be beautiful, and yet..."

[Bugg]

Always thought this moment was typical of Edwards' luck-Robinson goes unpenalized for what should have been a 15-yard RTP, pushing the Saints closer to a winning TD, thereby knocking the 2001 Jets out of playoff contention. Instead, no TRP call, Turley freaks out, brainfarts and stalls the Saints game-winning drive, Jets win improbably( and not fairly) and the get in the playoffs on that last-second FG that they had no business winning vs. the Raiders in a game reset from 9/11 then meaning nothing to the Raiders. Heck, in a twisted way, Edwards may have signed Turley because he owes him his career.

[jetophile]

Always thought this moment was typical of Edwards' luck-Robinson goes unpenalized for what should have been a 15-yard RTP...

You forgot to add that idiot Robinson got busted for trying to bring a firearm through the airport. Hell, I felt like shooting him myself to put him out of his misery. Guy was a lame horse, no question. Gave me a full body rash more than once.

[BP]

Always thought this moment was typical of Edwards' luck-Robinson goes unpenalized for what should have been a 15-yard RTP, pushing the Saints closer to a winning TD, thereby knocking the 2001 Jets out of playoff contention.

Dude..that moron Robinson RTP in Buffalo the next year with the Jets up by 7 late in the game,and allowed the Bills to tie it up...the Jets won in O.T...but there was no accountability at all..just the old saying..''before he was a football player,he was a man'':rolleyes:

[Jet Moses]

Dude..that moron Robinson RTP in Buffalo the next year with the Jets up by 7 late in the game,and allowed the Bills to tie it up...the Jets won in O.T...but there was no accountability at all..just the old saying..''before he was a football player,he was a man'':rolleyes:

Herm is a total POS. He brought that moron waste of space Damian Robinson from TB and gutted the entire secondary in two seasons. That, in and of itself, demonstrated gross incompetence right from the get go. But the Hermaphrodites kept right on with the "He's learning, he'll get better, you'll see..."

[The Troll]

Herm is a total POS. He brought that moron waste of space Damian Robinson from TB and gutted the entire secondary in two seasons. That, in and of itself, demonstrated gross incompetence right from the get go. But the Hermaphrodites kept right on with the "He's learning, he'll get better, you'll see..."

Isn't that kind of what the current Chad Pennington supporters say?

[Jet Moses]

Isn't that kind of what the current Chad Pennington supporters say?

F*ck you.

[shawn306]

Isn't that kind of what the current Chad Pennington supporters say?

Uh no.

[raffyD]

F*ck you.

[The Troll]

Uh no.

I don't know about you, but I have heard the "Chad will be much better because he finally has an offseason to train, plus he has another year in the system" argument A LOT.

[raffyD]

I don't know about you, but I have heard the "Chad will be much better because he finally has an offseason to train, plus he has another year in the system" argument A LOT.

Lmao! I just posted that in another thread!

[Bugg]

I don't know about you, but I have heard the "Chad will be much better because he finally has an offseason to train, plus he has another year in the system" argument A LOT.

The consensus seems to be he's a smart but physically-limited QB. And he knows as much. He's not suddenly going to break out the Lamonica/Namath game plan

Herm's a complete a-hole-is,was always will be. He has finally defeated Ed Pickney in the "Philly player to milk the most of a career out of one improbable play" award.

[jetophile]

The consensus seems to be he's a smart but physically-limited QB. And he knows as much. He's not suddenly going to break out the Lamonica/Namath..

HAHAHA! My brother used to say, "You be Daryle LaMonica, I'll be Gerry Philbin (or insert Winston Hill or other Jets defender of choice HERE). Now make like you're dropping back for a pass." "Um, why?" "So I can kill you." "N-o-o-o-o!" Creamed.

I had a photo of me in a Jets helmet underneath a Snell poster in my brother's room in Queens. Titans and Namath Bobbleheads in the background. Couldn't find it after my folks passed, but I remember it. Too bad.

[Jet Moses]

I don't know about you, but I have heard the "Chad will be much better because he finally has an offseason to train, plus he has another year in the system" argument A LOT.

Let me repeat my last post in a nicer way:

The Clemenade Thread is on page one. TJ Mitch and Tex Jr. are waiting there, for you. You can take turns blowing smoke up each other's *ss about how many SB's the Jets would have won, if only they had a "strong armed" QB, like Browning Neagle.

Oh wait, we did have a strong armed QB- Vinny. And Herm and Hackett put him in a WCO.

Lets also suspend reason when it comes to Vinny always getting hurt. Isn't that how Chad got his shot in 2002?

Tex Jr. will tell you the 1998 offensive line was frozen in suspended animation during the 2001-2005 dark ages.

I got news for you, the Jets could have had Dan Marino during the Herm error and Herm, Bradway and Hackett would have found a way to get him killed.

[The Troll]

Let me repeat my last post in a nicer way:

The Clemenade Thread is on page one. TJ Mitch and Tex Jr. are waiting there, for you. You can take turns blowing smoke up each other's *ss about how many SB's the Jets would have won, if only they had a "strong armed" QB, like Browning Neagle.

Oh wait, we did have a strong armed QB- Vinny. And Herm and Hackett put him in a WCO.

Lets also suspend reason when it comes to Vinny always getting hurt. Isn't that how Chad got his shot in 2002?

Tex Jr. will tell you the 1998 offensive line was frozen in suspended animation during the 2001-2005 dark ages.

I got news for you, the Jets could have had Dan Marino during the Herm error and Herm, Bradway and Hackett would have found a way to get him killed.

Tell me: when was the last time a QB with a ladyarm won a Super Bowl? Going back to Super Bowl XXVII (the first Super Bowl in modern free agency) the answer is an astonishing two. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer, and both of those guys had to have historically great defenses to do it. Not to mention that Brad Johnson in his prime was MUCH better than Chad Pennington. Also not to mention that both of them had stronger arms than Chad, although comparatively weak to the rest of the league. Anyway, that's two guys in the past 15 Super Bowls. So, no, when I think of strong armed QBs, I don't think of Browning Nagle, Vinny Testeverde, or Ryan Leaf. I think of John Elway, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, or Tom Brady.

BTW, Chad was a PERFECT fit for Herman Edwards' pussified offense. Witness the 16 interceptions that he threw this season whenever actually being asked to make NFL passes. Also witness career third-stringer and fellow ladyarm Damon Huard's 11 touchdowns and 1 interception this season while running the same rotting vagina that Chad ran so well the previous four years. Chad was always the perfect Herm QB. He's the guy that plays not to lose. Forgive me for wanting someone that plays to WIN.

[Jet Moses]

Tell me: when was the last time a QB with a ladyarm won a Super Bowl? Going back to Super Bowl XXVII (the first Super Bowl in modern free agency) the answer is an astonishing two. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer, and both of those guys had to have historically great defenses to do it.

Name all the teams that won a SB that didn't have an "historically great defense".

Not to mention that Brad Johnson in his prime was MUCH better than Chad Pennington. Also not to mention that both of them had stronger arms than Chad, although comparatively weak to the rest of the league. Anyway, that's two guys in the past 15 Super Bowls. So, no, when I think of strong armed QBs, I don't think of Browning Nagle, Vinny Testeverde, or Ryan Leaf. I think of John Elway, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, or Tom Brady.

Elway, Aikman et al were complimented with top rushing attacks. How convenient no mention of Dan Marino or Jim Kelly, two "strong armed" HOF QB's who never won a SB. Kelly had Thurmon "I can't find my helmet" Thomas and Marino never had a decent back on his team.

Great defense, the ability to run the ball, have just as much, if not more to do with winning a championship than whether or not your QB can break fingers with his throws. It doesn't hurt to have great coaching, and game planning as well. It takes a team, Troll.

BTW, Chad was a PERFECT fit for Herman Edwards' pussified offense. Witness the 16 interceptions that he threw this season whenever actually being asked to make NFL passes. Also witness career third-stringer and fellow ladyarm Damon Huard's 11 touchdowns and 1 interception this season while running the same rotting vagina that Chad ran so well the previous four years. Chad was always the perfect Herm QB. He's the guy that plays not to lose. Forgive me for wanting someone that plays to WIN.

More convenient thinking. Throw the Herm error out. It's not valid. Chad was so PERFECT, Herm had to realize that by accident. The whole episode was Chinese fire drill on angel dust.

Lets just look at last season. CP gets the nod as the starter after two shoulder surgeries.

Unprecedented.

I'll tell you what happened with you and the other members of the cadre on this board that want to poison every single thread with your "Chad sucks" agenda-

You guys were so c*ck sure that Chad was finished, that there was no way he was ever gonna play again, and you buried him. You guys were all saying Patrick Ramsey would be the starter, and all sorts of crap. But he's still here, and you just can't deal with it.

The Jets won ten games last year without a running game or the ability to stop the run. Name all the teams in the history of the NFL that have even finished over 500 that lacked those two basic abilities?

Obviously, we got the coaching. The O-line is younger, stronger, and it's only going to get better. The backfied has been upgraded- Thomas Jones & Darian Barnes.

The only thing the Jets have to do now is improve the run defense and get a pass rush going, and they will be on there way.

I'll make a deal with you-

If the Jets finish top ten rushing and top ten run defense, and Chad performs poorly, then ok. We move in another direction. I just can't see bailing on a guy after only one season when he had two shoulder surgeries in two years, had no complimentary running game and the defense couldn't stop the run. Lets wait and get a better yardstick to measure the results. And no, I'm not "blaming" every other unit on the team to rationalize for Chad, so don't play that like Tex Jr. always does. Anybody who doesn't have their head in the sand can clearly see the Jets greatest need is DT and a pass rusher. Pointing that out, is not making up excuses for Chad. Chad had some horrible moments last season. All I'm saying is, if he has no moments when the rest of the team is getting the job done, then yeah, he's the weak link, and has to be replaced.

In any event, Mangini will make the final decision on who the starter will be. I can say right now that I will support that decision 100%, no matter who it is.

Can you?

[Sperm Edwards]

Trent Dilfer may not be a top QB, but he does not have a ladyarm.

[EM31]

I do seem to recall a whole bunch of people, none of whom do not have medical backgrounds, who were prepared to issue "guarantees" that Chad would never play another meanigful down in an NFL game. Or some such silliness. This time last year was around the loudest as I recall.

Which really only goes to show that the value of any guarantee is derived from the value of whoever is offering that guarantee.

[Sperm Edwards]

I'm all for replacing Chad. But if Clemens still looks like his head is shoved way up his ass like he did in (albeit limited) action last year, then he can't be put in. Mangini will run a high risk of losing the team if they feel he's putting in someone so much worse than another. He doesn't have two superbowl rings on his resume to justify whatever permanent QB substitution he wants whenever he wants like Parcells & Shanahan when they replaced Bledsoe & Plummer.

If Clemens looks lost again, then we go with Chad for another year, hope for the best, & grab a QB in the draft or FA before the '08 season. Chad is not the long-term solution. If Clemens isn't either, I want no part of a season-long experiment.

[The Troll]

Name all the teams that won a SB that didn't have an "historically great defense".

There are four occasions over the last 15 Super Bowls in which the team that led the league in scoring defense won the Super Bowl: the '96 Packers, '00 Ravens, '02 Bucs, and '03 Patriots. The Packers gave up 210 points. The Pats: 238. The Bucs gave up 196, and the Ravens gave up 165. So, the teams that won championships with Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer as their QBs had the top two defenses of the last 15 Super Bowls.

Elway, Aikman et al were complimented with top rushing attacks. How convenient no mention of Dan Marino or Jim Kelly, two "strong armed" HOF QB's who never won a SB. Kelly had Thurmon "I can't find my helmet" Thomas and Marino never had a decent back on his team.

Great defense, the ability to run the ball, have just as much, if not more to do with winning a championship than whether or not your QB can break fingers with his throws. It doesn't hurt to have great coaching, and game planning as well. It takes a team, Troll.

I only mentioned QBs that have won the Super Bowl in recent history. Would you like me to add in Jim Kelly? Fine. In the past 15 Super Bowls, the only weak-arms were Brad Johnson, Stan Humphries, Chris Chandler, and Rich Gannon. Out of a possible 30, that's four. And only one of them actually won the game.

You will never hear me say that it doesn't take a team to win a championship. But, QB is the most important position on the field and if you want to win, you need a damn good one 13 times out of 15.

More convenient thinking. Throw the Herm error out. It's not valid. Chad was so PERFECT, Herm had to realize that by accident. The whole episode was Chinese fire drill on angel dust.

Lets just look at last season. CP gets the nod as the starter after two shoulder surgeries.

Unprecedented.

I'll tell you what happened with you and the other members of the cadre on this board that want to poison every single thread with your "Chad sucks" agenda-

You guys were so c*ck sure that Chad was finished, that there was no way he was ever gonna play again, and you buried him. You guys were all saying Patrick Ramsey would be the starter, and all sorts of crap. But he's still here, and you just can't deal with it.

The Jets won ten games last year without a running game or the ability to stop the run. Name all the teams in the history of the NFL that have even finished over 500 that lacked those two basic abilities?

Obviously, we got the coaching. The O-line is younger, stronger, and it's only going to get better. The backfied has been upgraded- Thomas Jones & Darian Barnes.

The only thing the Jets have to do now is improve the run defense and get a pass rush going, and they will be on there way.

I'll make a deal with you-

If the Jets finish top ten rushing and top ten run defense, and Chad performs poorly, then ok. We move in another direction. I just can't see bailing on a guy after only one season when he had two shoulder surgeries in two years, had no complimentary running game and the defense couldn't stop the run. Lets wait and get a better yardstick to measure the results. And no, I'm not "blaming" every other unit on the team to rationalize for Chad, so don't play that like Tex Jr. always does. Anybody who doesn't have their head in the sand can clearly see the Jets greatest need is DT and a pass rusher. Pointing that out, is not making up excuses for Chad. Chad had some horrible moments last season. All I'm saying is, if he has no moments when the rest of the team is getting the job done, then yeah, he's the weak link, and has to be replaced.

In any event, Mangini will make the final decision on who the starter will be. I can say right now that I will support that decision 100%, no matter who it is.

Can you?

I never said Herm plotted it out. He lucked into it in 2002 just like he lucked into Damon Huard this past season.

You got me figured me wrong, Hoss. Yes, I did want Patrick Ramsey to start. But you can go back and check the Titans game thread and see that whenever someone (maybe Barton) bashed Chad, I called him out on it. Because Chad played that day like I expect our starting quarterback to play. Then, I even praised him after the New England game, even though his receivers did most of the work in route to his second straight 300+ yard, 2 touchdown effort. But, then what happened? From week three on, Chad Pennington threw 13 touchdowns and 15 interceptions . He also went through a six week stretch in which he failed to crack the 200-yard barrier. After the first two weeks of the season, Chad Pennington was terrible the rest of the way. Did he have a solid game mixed in every now and then? Of course. But, for the most part, he was awful.

I have seen Chad with a running game before. I have seen Chad with a top ten defense before. He wasn't good enough. Yes, he had an idiot as a head coach, but that idiot's offense was perfectly tailored to Chad's strengths. And he still led the team to 3 points against Pittsburgh. Then walked off the field laughing about it.

I support the New York Jets. If Chad Pennington is the starter next season, I will sit in front of the TV and cheer for him just as I always have. And he will let me down, just as he always does. I have no faith in him, whatsoever, and believe me, I wish I did.

[The Troll]

Trent Dilfer may not be a top QB, but he does not have a ladyarm.

I don't recall his arm being overly strong, but I haven't seen him play in a long time either. They didn't show many Bucs games on local TV.

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't recall his arm being overly strong, but I haven't seen him play in a long time either. They didn't show many Bucs games on local TV.

Arm strength was never his problem. He can make all the throws. He just doesn't always make enough of them near his own receivers.

[GimmeShelter]

Tell me: when was the last time a QB with a ladyarm won a Super Bowl? Going back to Super Bowl XXVII (the first Super Bowl in modern free agency) the answer is an astonishing two. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer, and both of those guys had to have historically great defenses to do it.

Name all the teams that won a SB that didn't have an "historically great defense".

Not to mention that Brad Johnson in his prime was MUCH better than Chad Pennington. Also not to mention that both of them had stronger arms than Chad, although comparatively weak to the rest of the league. Anyway, that's two guys in the past 15 Super Bowls. So, no, when I think of strong armed QBs, I don't think of Browning Nagle, Vinny Testeverde, or Ryan Leaf. I think of John Elway, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, or Tom Brady.

Elway, Aikman et al were complimented with top rushing attacks. How convenient no mention of Dan Marino or Jim Kelly, two "strong armed" HOF QB's who never won a SB. Kelly had Thurmon "I can't find my helmet" Thomas and Marino never had a decent back on his team.

Great defense, the ability to run the ball, have just as much, if not more to do with winning a championship than whether or not your QB can break fingers with his throws. It doesn't hurt to have great coaching, and game planning as well. It takes a team, Troll.

BTW, Chad was a PERFECT fit for Herman Edwards' pussified offense. Witness the 16 interceptions that he threw this season whenever actually being asked to make NFL passes. Also witness career third-stringer and fellow ladyarm Damon Huard's 11 touchdowns and 1 interception this season while running the same rotting vagina that Chad ran so well the previous four years. Chad was always the perfect Herm QB. He's the guy that plays not to lose. Forgive me for wanting someone that plays to WIN.

More convenient thinking. Throw the Herm error out. It's not valid. Chad was so PERFECT, Herm had to realize that by accident. The whole episode was Chinese fire drill on angel dust.

Lets just look at last season. CP gets the nod as the starter after two shoulder surgeries.

Unprecedented.

I'll tell you what happened with you and the other members of the cadre on this board that want to poison every single thread with your "Chad sucks" agenda-

You guys were so c*ck sure that Chad was finished, that there was no way he was ever gonna play again, and you buried him. You guys were all saying Patrick Ramsey would be the starter, and all sorts of crap. But he's still here, and you just can't deal with it.

The Jets won ten games last year without a running game or the ability to stop the run. Name all the teams in the history of the NFL that have even finished over 500 that lacked those two basic abilities?

Obviously, we got the coaching. The O-line is younger, stronger, and it's only going to get better. The backfied has been upgraded- Thomas Jones & Darian Barnes.

The only thing the Jets have to do now is improve the run defense and get a pass rush going, and they will be on there way.

I'll make a deal with you-

If the Jets finish top ten rushing and top ten run defense, and Chad performs poorly, then ok. We move in another direction. I just can't see bailing on a guy after only one season when he had two shoulder surgeries in two years, had no complimentary running game and the defense couldn't stop the run. Lets wait and get a better yardstick to measure the results. And no, I'm not "blaming" every other unit on the team to rationalize for Chad, so don't play that like Tex Jr. always does. Anybody who doesn't have their head in the sand can clearly see the Jets greatest need is DT and a pass rusher. Pointing that out, is not making up excuses for Chad. Chad had some horrible moments last season. All I'm saying is, if he has no moments when the rest of the team is getting the job done, then yeah, he's the weak link, and has to be replaced.

In any event, Mangini will make the final decision on who the starter will be. I can say right now that I will support that decision 100%, no matter who it is.

Can you?

[Maxman]

I'm all for replacing Chad. But if Clemens still looks like his head is shoved way up his ass like he did in (albeit limited) action last year, then he can't be put in. Mangini will run a high risk of losing the team if they feel he's putting in someone so much worse than another. He doesn't have two superbowl rings on his resume to justify whatever permanent QB substitution he wants whenever he wants like Parcells & Shanahan when they replaced Bledsoe & Plummer.

If Clemens looks lost again, then we go with Chad for another year, hope for the best, & grab a QB in the draft or FA before the '08 season. Chad is not the long-term solution. If Clemens isn't either, I want no part of a season-long experiment.

I don't agree with this. Just because Clemens doesn't beat out Chad this year, doesn't mean he is a bum. Seriously -- it is possible that Chad plays well and beats him out. That wouldn't be a poor indication of Clemens. It might be, but it isn't definite.

[Maxman]

Chad will have a running game this year. If he doesn't perform -- it will be time to move on. You guys poke fun at the full offseason of rest thing, but that is HUGE.

[BP]

Chad will have a running game this year. If he doesn't perform -- it will be time to move on. You guys poke fun at the full offseason of rest thing, but that is HUGE.

Excuse me,this thread was about Herm and LJ..why did you have to go ahead and hijack it?

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't agree with this. Just because Clemens doesn't beat out Chad this year, doesn't mean he is a bum. Seriously -- it is possible that Chad plays well and beats him out. That wouldn't be a poor indication of Clemens. It might be, but it isn't definite.

Then you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say "if Chad beats out Clemens" - I said if Clemens still looks completely lost.

So it's not if the difference between Chad/Clemens in tc is the difference between Vinny & Chad. But if it looks like the difference between Chad & Bollinger then that's another thing.

[Maxman]

Then you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say "if Chad beats out Clemens" - I said if Clemens still looks completely lost.

So it's not if the difference between Chad/Clemens in tc is the difference between Vinny & Chad. But if it looks like the difference between Chad & Bollinger then that's another thing.

That makes more sense -- my bad.

I am not 100% sure that we will know enough about Clemens from this camp to write him off though. Even if he looks lost. But I agree if he stinks up the joint they better start thinking long term.