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Green Jets & Ham

Another dominant performance by Kei Igawa!

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Hey Mike, all kidding aside, as a Yankee fan why can't you support K-Igawa?

Why can't you be as generous with the praise of K-Igawa as you are with the Red Sox Japanese import?

I could see if MYTHzusaka was badly out-pitching our Japanese kid this spring, but he's not!!

Why, Mike .. why can't you give the kid is due .. you talk about this kid like he's not even in MYTHzusaka's league, depsite the fact that he's pitching very well ... help me to understand that man, and don't tell me it's because you're not a homer, this has nothing to do with homerism, based on "performance" you are not giving this kid his just due

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Hey Mike, all kidding aside, as a Yankee fan why can't you support K-Igawa?

Why can't you be as generous with the praise of K-Igawa as you are with the Red Sox Japanese import?

I could see if MYTHzusaka was badly out-pitching our Japanese kid this spring, but he's not!!

Why, Mike .. why can't you give the kid is due .. you talk about this kid like he's not even in MYTHzusaka's league, depsite the fact that he's pitching very well ... help me to understand that man, and don't tell me it's because you're not a homer, this has nothing to do with homerism, based on "performance" you are not giving this kid his just due

I didn't really say anything negative about Igawa... I haven't been bashing him at all. I just think comparing him to Matsuzaka is foolish. There is a reason one of them got 20 million and the only one got 60...

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I didn't really say anything negative about Igawa... I haven't been bashing him at all. I just think comparing him to Matsuzaka is foolish. There is a reason one of them got 20 million and the only one got 60...

Fair enough, Mike, but money doesn't pitch, people do

He can't take that contract out to the mound with him, it's just him and the big league hitters, mano-a-mano, and they won't give a rats @$$ about the size of his deal .. that won't guarantee he has more success than K-Igawa

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Fair enough, Mike, but money doesn't pitch, people do

He can't take that contract out to the mound with him, it's just him and the big league hitters, mano-a-mano, and they won't give a rats @$$ about the size of his deal .. that won't guarantee he has more success than K-Igawa

Of course it won't but he got more money then Igawa for a reason... Because most people project him as a better pitcher.

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Fair enough, Mike, but money doesn't pitch, people do

He can't take that contract out to the mound with him, it's just him and the big league hitters, mano-a-mano, and they won't give a rats @$$ about the size of his deal .. that won't guarantee he has more success than K-Igawa

When have the Yankees or Red Sox ever cared about money?

If the situation was reversed and Dice-K was wearing pinstripes you would be saying that the Sox were out-maneuvered and that he will win the Cy Young award.

You would then say the Sox signed the "poor-mans" Dice-K in Igawa.

I don't know who will have a better year, but if I was a betting man I would put my money on Dice-K.

As much as I disagree with madmike 95% of the time I'm with him on this.

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If the situation was reversed and Dice-K was wearing pinstripes you would be saying that the Sox were out-maneuvered and that he will win the Cy Young award.

You would then say the Sox signed the "poor-mans" Dice-K in Igawa.

:thumbup:

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I found someone who agrees with GJ&H heh. Clay Davenport of BP.

Igawa is a very good pitcher; I'd expect to be at least as good as Wang was last year, although you should not take that to mean he'll win 19 or more games. I think he would fairly rate as something like the #15-20 pitcher in the league.

I hope he's right.

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I found someone who agrees with GJ&H heh. Clay Davenport of BP.

I hope he's right.

That's what I'm saying, Mike .. don't sleep on Igawa .. I've actually watched three or four of his starts this spring, it seems like YES always seemed to broadcast his starts, and he reminds me of Jimmy Key .. obviously he's not as seasoned as Jimmy Key when he came to the Yankees, but a very similar type of pitcher, crafty lefty who hits his spots, changes speeds and keeps hitters off balance .. and he gets his share of strikouts too, today he K'd Chase Utley twice and I've seen him K Ryan Howard a few times this spring as well

This kid is a sleeper, Mike .. I think the Yankees played opposum with the way they downplayed Igawa

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Mike, you want a comparison of an active pitcher, former Yankee and bona-fide Red Sox killer?

TED LILLY

I know Lilly isn't great, though he'd probably win more games with the Yankees {I always wished we didn't trade him}, but this kid is a very similar type pitcher .. but I always viewed Ted Lilly as a poor mans Jimmy Key too .. he's that type of crafty lefty with good control, changes speeds, hits his spots, pitches up, down, in and out, keeps hitters off balance, and he's sneaky fast with his fastball because of his smooth delivery and the way he works it off his off-speed pitches .. crafty lefty, that's the best way to describe him, and let's hope he has the same success {as Lilly} verses Boston

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Mike, you want a comparison of an active pitcher, former Yankee and bona-fide Red Sox killer?

TED LILLY

I know Lilly isn't great, though he'd probably win more games with the Yankees {I always wished we didn't trade him}, but this kid is a very similar type pitcher .. but I always viewed Ted Lilly as a poor mans Jimmy Key too .. he's that type of crafty lefty with good control, changes speeds, hits his spots, pitches up, down, in and out, keeps hitters off balance, and he's sneaky fast with his fastball because of his smooth delivery and the way he works it off his off-speed pitches .. crafty lefty, that's the best way to describe him, and let's hope he has the same success {as Lilly} verses Boston

Thats not an awful comparison. I could see him being about as good as Lilly.

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I've actually watched three or four of his starts this spring, it seems like YES always seemed to broadcast his starts, and he reminds me of Jimmy Key

after watching just a few clips of him on YouTube I made the same exact comparison Ham. I looked at him and thought "wow, looks like Jimmy Key" to me. If he can only be as good as Key was in pinstripes.

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He is a horrible situation hotter and does not move runners when he needs to.

Things your silly numbers don't show you.

if you ever saw Dave Kingman play, you would see what I meant by my comment.

Would you call Dave Kingman a "good" hitter?

He doesn't move runners over?

Why is that? Because he strikes out a lot?

A strike-out is not the God awful play it's cracked up to be. It would hurt the team a lot more if he grounded into 180 double plays, rather than whiffed 180 times.

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I don't know what little league or Babe Ruth team you played on but If the guy leading off the inning walked on 4 balls ,I'm not swinging untill he throws a strike. You can sit on the fastball over the plate and swing at a meaty fastball but if he throws 3 balls I take the walk or make him take it to a full count . You make him throw you 2 strikes before you even consider swinging the bat .

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But Igawa only throws 91 mph. He's a junkballer.

Let's see him get through Papi, Manny and Drew three times in a game before we have him 3rd in CY voting.

Ham, you really crack me up. I see you still haven't responded to the fact that DiceK was throwing 96mph on ESPN the other day. Don't let facts get in the way while starting another over the top thread.

I love your enthusiasm, though.

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Why does Igawa have to be the "Poor Man's Dice-K"??? Why cant he just be known as the guy from the same country and not as good? You may also consider him an afterthought that neither the Japanese media nor the Japanese fans care about.

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But Igawa only throws 91 mph. He's a junkballer.

Let's see him get through Papi, Manny and Drew three times in a game before we have him 3rd in CY voting.

Ham, you really crack me up. I see you still haven't responded to the fact that DiceK was throwing 96mph on ESPN the other day. Don't let facts get in the way while starting another over the top thread.

I love your enthusiasm, though.

Don't EVER put J.D Drew in the same class as Manny or Ortiz.

There is a reason is Mr 80%.

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He doesn't move runners over?

Why is that? Because he strikes out a lot?

A strike-out is not the God awful play it's cracked up to be. It would hurt the team a lot more if he grounded into 180 double plays, rather than whiffed 180 times.

How does a strike out look in comparison to contact with a runner on 3rd, one out?

Or a runner on 2nd, and no one out?

Please don't play the MadMike game of over analysis based on stats alone.

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Ham-MadMike has schooled me that pitchers winning games mean nothing.

Much more important is teh WHIP and the stats they accumulate.

Winning games is too old school.

wins = team stat

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the line on Dice K was very deceiving. 5 innings no hits is awesome, very effective, right?

A "quality start" is defined as one where the starting pitcher goes 6 or more innings and allows three or fewer runs. He threw 104 pitches while walking 5 people, and turned the game over to his bullpen who had too much to handle in 4 innings. I would say if he mimics that performance everytime out, and didnt let up a hit all season, he might win, 10 games.

Boston's bullpen is a pathetic excuse for relief, excluding Paplebon, who has a tender arm. 5 innings, 5 walks is not going to cut it against a team like the Yankees, Blue Jays, AL Central, and maybe even the Orioles, based on their past Red Sox killing performances.

and about yesterday, if Dunn doesn't swing at ball 4, that inning is completley different, and Dice K has a totally different line. But that is all hypothetical . . .

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Not really because wins are a meaningless stat for pitchers. He could win as many games and still pitch like crap.

So you think that Igawa will be just as good a pitcher as Matsuzaka. Thats what you're saying right?

Shades of Randy Johnson, circa 2006.

Gotcha'.;)

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How does a strike out look in comparison to contact with a runner on 3rd, one out?

Or a runner on 2nd, and no one out?

Please don't play the MadMike game of over analysis based on stats alone.

Do you have any evidene to support your claim that Adam Dunn doesn't move runners over? Or do you just assume it's so because he strikes out a ton?

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after watching just a few clips of him on YouTube I made the same exact comparison Ham. I looked at him and thought "wow, looks like Jimmy Key" to me. If he can only be as good as Key was in pinstripes.

I seem to remember Jimmy Key not having control issues, like Igawa still has. He went 5 innings, and threw 87 pitches yesterday, 49 for strikes. This means he still nibbled a bit. At this rate, I do not see many games where Igawa goes past 6 innings.

However, his slider is excellent, and if he can harnes his change, his fastball will be devestating. And at that point, I like his chances to put up 15 wins, and 180 Ks, with a decent ERA of sub 4.25.

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the line on Dice K was very deceiving. 5 innings no hits is awesome, very effective, right?

A "quality start" is defined as one where the starting pitcher goes 6 or more innings and allows three or fewer runs. He threw 104 pitches while walking 5 people, and turned the game over to his bullpen who had too much to handle in 4 innings. I would say if he mimics that performance everytime out, and didnt let up a hit all season, he might win, 10 games.

Boston's bullpen is a pathetic excuse for relief, excluding Paplebon, who has a tender arm. 5 innings, 5 walks is not going to cut it against a team like the Yankees, Blue Jays, AL Central, and maybe even the Orioles, based on their past Red Sox killing performances.

and about yesterday, if Dunn doesn't swing at ball 4, that inning is completley different, and Dice K has a totally different line. But that is all hypothetical . . .

:) You do know it's spring training and he was only scheduled to pitch around 100 pitches right? No hits when he used the game to practice his off-speed stuff is amazing, that is why he had the 5 walks.

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:) You do know it's spring training and he was only scheduled to pitch around 100 pitches right? No hits when he used the game to practice his off-speed stuff is amazing, that is why he had the 5 walks.

its spring training still?? wasn't opening day on Monday?? 100 pitches in 5 innings never the less.

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Do you have any evidene to support your claim that Adam Dunn doesn't move runners over? Or do you just assume it's so because he strikes out a ton?

I have evidence from watching Reds games. Do you have other evidence.

So many times I would see Lopez or Freel stranded by this guy last year.

Watching baseball gives you somethingh that stats can't.

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You can't make that blanket statement

I agree with you here SD. While I do see some of the logic behind the statement..I"ve wathced the game enough to know that some guys just know how to win, and some guys just know how to lose.

A few examples that immediately come to mind.

Andy Petitte---had some big years with the Yanks where it seemed if the Yankees scored 8 runs, he'd give up 6. Other games where the Yanks might only score two or three and he'd give up one or two. He did enough to win more times than not.

Anthony Young--- Man was this guy unreal. As a Yankee fan I actually feared what this guy was capable of. Had very good stuff and somehow managed to go 3-30 with an ERA of just around 4.00. I mean, 99.9% of the time if a pitcher posts an ERA of 4.00 he's going to be around .500. Anthony Young just always did enough to lose. Score five, I'll give up six...score three and I'll give up four...etc.

Tim Leary--- A lot of people called him a hard luck pitcher when he lost 19 games with a 4.11 ERA but the guy just knew how to lose. Had a lifetime record of 78-105 with a not so terrible ERA. He'd always keep his team in the game, but had a knack for giving up enough runs to lose.

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I have evidence from watching Reds games. Do you have other evidence.

So many times I would see Lopez or Freel stranded by this guy last year.

Watching baseball gives you somethingh that stats can't.

And stats gives you context that you can't get from just watching games. The bottom line is that dunn is a VERY productive player whither he moves runners or not.

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And stats gives you context that you can't get from just watching games. The bottom line is that dunn is a VERY productive player whither he moves runners or not.

All I said was that he was Dave Kingman, reincarnate, and does not do enough with his at bats.

From what I have seen of him, I would venture to say that he is overly slotting pitches (looking for only balls he can drive). This causes him to take a lot of pitches (good that he works a count and takes a lot of walks, bad in that he takes a lot of 3rd strikes, because the ball is not in his "zone").

You want to call him productive, ok, but he is horrible with RISP, and he does not make great outs. If you want to call that productive, be my guess.

AFJ's comment above was right on.

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And stats gives you context that you can't get from just watching games.

The problem is, many people (I won't name names), use stats out of context.

That is the worst thing.

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All I said was that he was Dave Kingman, reincarnate, and does not do enough with his at bats.

From what I have seen of him, I would venture to say that he is overly slotting pitches (looking for only balls he can drive). This causes him to take a lot of pitches (good that he works a count and takes a lot of walks, bad in that he takes a lot of 3rd strikes, because the ball is not in his "zone").

You want to call him productive, ok, but he is horrible with RISP, and he does not make great outs. If you want to call that productive, be my guess.

AFJ's comment above was right on.

He's not dave kingman. He's a much better player then that. RISP numbers have no carry over from year to year BTW, so the most productive players (like dunn) are the ones who are the best "situational" hitters.

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He's not dave kingman. He's a much better player then that. RISP numbers have no carry over from year to year BTW, so the most productive players (like dunn) are the ones who are the best "situational" hitters.

Mike-How much did you watch Dave Kingman.

Not read about Dave Kingman. Not looked at Dave Kingman's stats. I mean watched Dave Kingman series on end?

Please edify your Dave Kingman experience.

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The problem is, many people (I won't name names), use stats out of context.

That is the worst thing.

It's not a question of stats out of context, it's a question of knowing what stats are important and have predictive value.

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Mike-How much did you watch Dave Kingman.

Not read about Dave Kingman. Not looked at Dave Kingman's stats. I mean watched Dave Kingman series on end?

Please edify your Dave Kingman experience.

Well since he retired when I was 3 I didn't see much of him but that doesn't mean I can't look at his stats and get a pretty good idea of what kind of player he was.

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