Any word on Moose?

[madmike1]

Right. He was on the coattails when he won 22 games in 2001. Or when he went 4-0 while he pitched 48 innings while giving up 6 ER and striking out 56 in the playoffs that year. And same thing in 2004 when he won 21 games. Or in the 2004 playoffs when he went 3-1 and pitched on a leg and a half.

He's a career 8-2 pitcher in the playoffs with a 2.06 ERA. Mussina is 7-8 with a 3.40 ERA.

Served.

In 2001 he road Randy Johnson's coattails to a title.

In 2004 he road dave roberts and lucky yankee collapse.

He was in the right place at the right time twice.

[AFJF]

In 2001 he road Randy Johnson's coattails to a title.

In 2004 he road dave roberts and lucky yankee collapse.

He was in the right place at the right time twice.

Give credit where credit is due Mike. You're right on one out of two here. The guy came up huge against the Yanks (although I don't make a huge deal out the cut on his ankle the way most fans do) but he absolutely has Randy Johnson to thank for his ring in Arizona. A LOT of people forget that when he was taken out of game seven he stood to be the losing pitcher. He got out-pitched in the biggest game of his life and was in the dugout, head in a towel, and crying when Mariano Rivera came in. A blooper, a bunt, an error, a double, and another blooper got the D' Backs the win. Hats off to them, they didn't all collapse emotionally the way Schilling did. All of this being said, Mike Mussina couldn't carry Schillings jock.

[madmike1]

All of this being said, Mike Mussina couldn't carry Schillings jock.

The numbers don't say that. But we should ignore them because they mean nothing and schilling "knows how to win" right?

Give me a break.

[AFJF]

The numbers don't say that. But we should ignore them because they mean nothing and schilling "knows how to win" right?

Give me a break.

The numbers say Schilling has been dominant in the post season more times than not..while Moose has been good more times than not. Stop being a blind homer.

[CrazyCarl40]

The numbers don't say that. But we should ignore them because they mean nothing and schilling "knows how to win" right?

Give me a break.

I just gave you the numbers that did say that, but we should ignore them because they don't prove you correct?

Give me a break.

[madmike1]

The numbers say Schilling has been dominant in the post season more times than not..while Moose has been ordinary more times than not. Stop being a blind homer.

BS small sample size. The numbers say that Mussina's career is very similar to Schilling's not me. In order to make the jump to saying that "mussina can't carry his jock" you need to depart the realm of reality and buy into hype that schilling creates with his big mouth.

[madmike1]

I just gave you the numbers that did say that, but we should ignore them because they don't prove you correct?

Give me a break.

Your numbers are based on TINY sample sizes.

[madmike1]

This is a great example of perception over reality...

[GimmeShelter]

In 2001 he road Randy Johnson's coattails to a title.

In 2004 he road dave roberts and lucky yankee collapse.

He was in the right place at the right time twice.

Challenging those two superb seasons by Schilling takes away any credibility you have on this topic. Please don't come back with some stat of how he faired when there was a 1/2 moon with winds out of the East at 11 mph to argue your dead wrong point.

[madmike1]

Challenging those two superb seasons by Schilling takes away any credibility you have on this topic. Please don't come back with some stat of how he faired when there was a 1/2 moon with winds out of the East at 11 mph to argue your dead wrong point.

So mussina hasn't had great seasons? The point is that IN THE PLAYOFFS THOSE YEARS, he road coattails to titles.

[AFJF]

Sample size my ass. Hey genius...when you take a riddiculously large sample size (their entire careers) Schilling is the better pitcher in almost every single category (if not all of em) and guess what Mike. The post season is SUPPOSED TO BE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE...that's why it's a big deal. It's hard to get there..and when you do it separates the men from the boys. It takes guys who have played thousands of games in their lives and says "guess whats guys, all you've done in the past means nothing if you don't get it done here and now". Schilling has been great in the "small sample size" post season while Moose has been just okay. He beats Moose in every category (K/9 HR/9 BB/9 WHIP H/9) and FAR outpitches him in the post season.

Mike, if the post season is BS because it's a small sample size then wouldn't that mean there has never been a good post season player? Or that there's no such thing as a good post season player? I seem to recall El Duque mowing down the opposition in the post season but is that meaningless becuase he only had to dominate three or four games before winning a ring. Oh by the way...I don't want to hear another word out of you about "sample size" because you've said a million times that anyone who thinks Tuiassosopo doesn't suck can go back and watch his ONE GAME against the Jets...but we can't use an entire sixteen game season to judge Pennington because it's too small of a sample size. Enough with the spin dude. Pick a theory and stick with it. Don't use the same one to take up both sides of an argument.

[madmike1]

great argument. compare baseball stats to football stats.

[GimmeShelter]

So mussina hasn't had great seasons? The point is that IN THE PLAYOFFS THOSE YEARS, he road coattails to titles.

No. No he didn't.

Wasn't he named CO MVP in the 01 WS and his performance in 04 both during the regular and post season was fantastic. His ONE hiccup post season wise in those two seasons was a game in which he could not push off the mound.

Listen Moose is a nice pitcher but come post season he isn't in the same group as Schilling. In fact his performance against Detroit was a MAJOR factor in the Yanks getting dismissed in 4 games.

[madmike1]

No. No he didn't.

Wasn't he named CO MVP in the 01 WS and his performance in 04 both during the regular and post season was fantastic. His ONE hiccup post season wise in those two seasons was a game in which he could not push off the mound.

Listen Moose is a nice pitcher but come post season he isn't in the same group as Schilling. In fact his performance against Detroit was a MAJOR factor in the Yanks getting dismissed in 4 games.

The reason he was the CO MVP in 01 was ALL HYPE. Johnson won that series and schilling should've lost game 7.

If the yankees do their job vs the tigers and score on more then one swing then Mussina gets a W and we're talking about how great he was. WINS ARE A TEAM STAT.

[AFJF]

great argument. compare baseball stats to football stats.

Show me exactly where I compared a single football stat. You can't because I didnt. As usual you're seeing what you want to see instead of seeing what's right in front of you. I was comparing your beloved "sample size" theory that should apply to all sports. When it's a player you hate then you throw sample size out the window. When there is a player who you're in love with you discount sample size. This is no different than when you said WHIP was a huge factor in judging how effective a pitcher is..until of course I pointed out the WHIP of the prospects the Yankees got for RJ at which time you replied "lol..WHIP is one of the worst ways to judge a pitcher". I was comparing the "theories" you base your arguments on. No comparison of stats. For once open your eyes.

[madmike1]

Show me exactly where I compared a single football stat. You can't because I didnt. As usual you're seeing what you want to see instead of seeing what's right in front of you. I was comparing your beloved "sample size" theory that should apply to all sports. When it's a player you hate then you throw sample size out the window. When there is a player who you're in love with you discount sample size. This is no different than when you said WHIP was a huge factor in judging how effective a pitcher is..until of course I pointed out the WHIP of the prospects the Yankees got for RJ at which time you replied "lol..WHIP is one of the worst ways to judge a pitcher". I was comparing the "theories" you base your arguments on. No comparison of stats. For once open your eyes.

i'm done with you because you're just blatantly lying about what i said. cya.

[AFJF]

i'm done with you because you're just blatantly lying about what i said. cya.

You get owned and you run away. Why am I not surprised. Tough to hang around when somebody puts a stop to all of your spinning I see. Bye bye.

[madmike1]

You get owned and you run away. Why am I not surprised. Tough to hang around when somebody puts a stop to all of your spinning I see. Bye bye.

quote the post where i said WHIP is one of the worst ways to judge a pitcher. liar.

[AFJF]

quote the post where i said WHIP is one of the worst ways to judge a pitcher. liar.

You said it. I called you out on it and you started spinning again. It's what you do. I get it. Carry on.

[madmike1]

You said it. I called you out on it and you started spinning again. It's what you do. I get it. Carry on.

Quote the post liar. Let me see it.

[madmike1]

All you're doing is proving that you'd blatently lie to make me look bad. Pathetic.

[AFJF]

All you're doing is proving that you'd blatently lie to make me look bad. Pathetic.

You want me to give you a second before you start spinning that too?

[madmike1]

You want me to give you a second before you start spinning that too?

Quote the post where i said WHIP is a terrible stat.

[madmike1]

I'm going to assume you can't come up with that proof. I hope it's clear beyond a doubt not how personal this is for this poster that he would blatently lie about somthing i've said because he hates me so much and he so wants me to look stupid.

[AFJF]

Quote the post liar. Let me see it.

Please stop obsessing over me and don't ever send me another private message spin boy. Just keep the discussions in here so everybody can see you get schoooled and taken to the cleanears time and again by any fan you engage in a debate with.

You know very well that you used WHIP as your be all end all in our debate about Mike Gonzalez and the second I used WHIP to show how good the prospects the Yankees got for RJ could turn out to be you laughed and said all of a sudden WHIP is not the be all end all and should be applied correctly. By "applied correctly" I assume you mean to use it when it supports your argument but discount it when it makes you look silly.

[madmike1]

Please stop obsessing over me and don't ever send me another private message spin boy. Just keep the discussions in here so everybody can see you get schoooled and taken to the cleanears time and again by any fan you engage in a debate with.

You know very well that you used WHIP as your be all end all in our debate about Mike Gonzalez and the second I used WHIP to show how good the prospects the Yankees got for RJ could turn out to be you laughed and said all of a sudden WHIP is not the be all end all and should be applied correctly. By "applied correctly" I assume you mean to use it when it supports your argument but discount it when it makes you look silly.

So you lie about me and then what i ask you in a PM like a man you just repeat your lies. LIAR.

[AFJF]

So you lie about me and then what i ask you in a PM like a man you just repeat your lies. LIAR.

No...I'm not lying. I'm telling the truth. You spin and constantly change your story in every debate and or discussion you have because you so continually get abused in these rooms. Im sure it gets old and it's hard to have it happen in public so now you've chosen to send me private messages you accuse me of lying. Dude, I have better things to do then sit around and look up your old BS. I know what you said. You said WHIP shouldn't be counted all that heavily or applied differently when comparing players you like to players you dont like.

[madmike1]

No...I'm not lying. I'm telling the truth. You spin and constantly change your story in every debate and or discussion you have because you so continually get abused in these rooms. Im sure it gets old and it's hard to have it happen in public so now you've chosen to send me private messages you accuse me of lying. Dude, I have better things to do then sit around and look up your old BS. I know what you said. You said WHIP shouldn't be counted all that heavily or applied differently when comparing players you like to players you dont like.

Just because you say "i'm telling the truth" doesn't mean you are, liar. Either produce the post where I said "WHIP is one of the worst ways of judging pitchers" or admit you are a liar.

[AFJF]

Just because you say "i'm telling the truth" doesn't mean you are liar. Either produce the post where I said "WHIP is one of the worst ways of judging pitchers" or admit you are a liar.

I know for a fact that you said WHIP should not be used to judge a pitcher (because you didn't like him) and that was soon after you were in LOVE with Ron Villones WHIP. Do I recall word for word what you said? No, I don't. I do know that you did spin your story (as you always do) and tried to discount WHIP when it worked against you (no surprise there) and it's the most important stat in the world when it favors you. There is a difference between lying, and not remembering what MadMike says word for word in a discussion that took place months ago. Lying is knowingly saying something that is false. Paraphrasing a two or three month old discussion is not lying. But then (not than) of course I don't suppose I should expect you to know the difference. And by the way....Mike Mussina can't carry Schilling jock.

[AFJF]

Okay...so here's the part where you thought acquring Mike Gonzalez for Ron Villone was something that should be laughed at because he had a high WHIP (this is one of MANY statements you made about his WHIP being too high)

Oh so trade 2 RP's who both are having good years + a decent 1B for a closer with a 1.50 WHIP and 26 walks in 40 innings LOL

So..lo and behold the Yankees trade for a couple of young pitchers and I use their WHIP to kind of help you see that they might be good players and you say about WHIP...

As far as johnson goes. The yankees didn't have to trade him for such a sorry return. You want to use WHIP as the be all end all?

So there ya go. It was the be all end all for Mike Gonzalez, but not for the prospects you didn't like. You're right...I didn't see anything in there where you said it was the worst way to judge a pitcher. I didn't remember correctly. However, where I was absolutely, undeniably, 100% correct is where I said you have no credibility because you constantly spin stats and change opinions just making it up as you go along while you get hammered in debate after debate. Keep on spinning and Mike Mussina still can't hold Schillings jock.

[Thor99]

In 2001 he road Randy Johnson's coattails to a title.

In 2004 he road dave roberts and lucky yankee collapse.

He was in the right place at the right time twice.

Luck is a team stat. To think otherwise is foolish.

[Latinlawyer]

Luck is a team stat. To think otherwise is foolish.

Guys Its a simple debate really:

Schilling is in consideration for HOF.

Mussina is not.

Schilling has two rings.

Mussina has none.

Schilling has more stature in MLB.

Mussina does not.

Simple. I think Mussina is a good pitcher but you can't say he is great. With Schilling there were times where you can say that he was a great pitcher. Certainly the bloody sock is a unique and legendary thing. It showed true grit.

LL

[shawn306]

Guys Its a simple debate really:

Schilling is in consideration for HOF.

Mussina is not.

Schilling has two rings.

Mussina has none.

Schilling has more stature in MLB.

Mussina does not.

Simple. I think Mussina is a good pitcher but you can't say he is great. With Schilling there were times where you can say that he was a great pitcher. Certainly the bloody sock is a unique and legendary thing. It showed true grit.

LL

If it was really bloody.

Everything else though you are dead on about.

[GimmeShelter]

Mussina hopes to avoid DL but Yankees conditioning program raises eyebrows.

Marty Miller and Dana Cavalea have their fingers firmly crossed hoping Mussina can avoid the shelf. Eight games into their gigs as Jeff Mangold's replacement, the performance enhancement duo is under fire for the multiple muscular problems.

Mussina's hamstring problem comes after Wang opened the season on the DL with a strained right hamstring and Hideki Matsui went on the shelf last week with a strained left hammy. In addition, Bobby Abreu (rib cage) missed most of spring training, Andy Pettitte (back spasms) was limited to 10 big-league spring innings, and Johnny Damon (cramped calves) was forced out of Opening Day and didn't start the next four games. Miller's program has been questioned because it de-emphasized running during spring training. Questions also have surfaced because Miller and Cavalea don't have extensive baseball backgrounds.

NYPOST</B></I>