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JetNation

Devil Rays send Yankees into last place

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Not much to say honestly. This team is pitching like garbage and they deserve to be where they are at the moment. JMO of course.

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Wang pitched more than well enough to win. Torre blew the game.

Torre wasn't pitching. I was referring to the players on the field who allowed the D' Rays to come back and win.

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It's Torre's job to put the best players on the field in the right situations and he consistently fails at that.

Right..because he should have known that the guy on his roster who gets paid to do one thing and one thing only (get lefties out) was going to give up a decisive HR...to a lefty.

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Burney had ONE BAD OUTING all year. Every time Vizcaino pitches, he's garbage.

Vizcaino has appeared in 13 games and allowed 0 runs 9 times and has allowed no base runners five times. Please explain to me how a guy is pitching like garbage "every time" when he allows no base runners or no runs?

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he has 10 walks in 12 innings. thats no baserunners?

Yes...what I said was 100% pure fact. In five of his twelve outings he allowed not a single walk or hit. Please explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is pitching "like garbage". This should be good.

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Yet clueless joe CONTINUES to pull starters early and rely on this bullpen that has been nothing but HORRIBLE all year.

Okay...the season is 19 games old. You're saying that a bullpen has been "nothing but HORRIBLE all year"

In their first 11 games of the season (which at this point is more than half of the games played) the Yankee bullpen had a collective ERA of 2.42 and if you take out the 3 run homer that Mo gave up it's 1.91. So now a bullpen with a collective ERA of 1.91 is HORRIBLE? In EIGHT of those games the bullpen allowed 2 ER or less. Please explain how this is HORRIBLE.

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In his last 7 games he's walked at least one hitter EVERY TIME. Even someone with an agenda like you can realize that that is awful. 12ip 10bb is completely unacceptable and if you don't realize that you're just in denial.

Thats not what you said. You said he has been garbage every time he's pitched. You have still yet to explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is "pitching like garbage".

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He's currently pitching like garbage as his ugly walk numbers show. Not to mention his awful k9 and GF.

I can agree with that. Just trying to get you to look at the big picture before you make comepletely inaccurate statements.

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It's been horrible RECENTLY because of torre's mismanagement.

Again, you gain credibility as you make more posts that are accurate as opposed to flying off the handle and making completely inaccurate comments about a season that is only 19 games old.

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The big picture is (as i've been saying) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go.

Well this is what I mean. Because you HATE Joe Torre so much, you're allowing it to get you all worked up and yelling and screaming things that are just dead wrong. Do a little homework. Look at some stats. Pay attention to the games when you watch them. Make your own (accurate) conclusions and state a well informed opinion. It gives you credibility and improves the overall quality of the board.

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The big picture is (as i've been saying for years) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go. You're arguing semantically as usual instead of presenting any real ideas.

And as usual you're unable to have a discussion without taking some kind of shot at me becuase it makes you furious that I just proved you to be absolutely, undeniably, 100% dead wrong on two statements you were trying to use as the basis of your argument. Try having a discussion without finding a roundabout way of putting somebody down because they've proven you wrong.

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You have no real argument. You are making tiny semantical points which have nothing to do with the big picture. If you have a real argument that is fact based i'll be happy to hear it.

There was no argument MadMike. I was just trying to help the discussion along by correcting your completely inaccurate statements. Some people who aren't watching the games as closely as I am might read what you're saying and think you were correct. Now that I've stepped in and pointed out your gross inaccuracies the thread is stronger because I used facts that proved your opinion to be driven by emotion as opposed to facts.

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How about this? If you don't have a point other than semantical nitpicking don't post anything. Your argument is that "Vizciano is bad but a little less bad than you're saying." You have ZERO real argument.

What I was saying was "MadMike, you're wrong" and I was right. My comments brought some fact to the discussion to erase the multiple incorrect statements you were making. Carry on.

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My point was "Torre is terrible at managing a bullpen" if you want to try to prove that statement wrong go ahead.

Now it's not possible to prove an opinion right or wrong Mike. I know you love to rip people all the time and tell them how stupid they are becuase their opinions are different than yours. I dont do that. If you think Torre is terrible then I'm fine with that. If you're going to make grossly innacurate statements that can be proven wrong with facts then I'm going to point it out. It's bad when you're trying to make a point and in making that point you use completely false or innacurate statements to make that point. Oh, and of course I can always say that Joe Torre was managing the Yankees 'pen when they won four rings and he was the one that came up with what many consider to be the most lethal 1-2 combo of all time using Mo and Wettland back to back.

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