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Devil Rays send Yankees into last place

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Not much to say honestly. This team is pitching like garbage and they deserve to be where they are at the moment. JMO of course.
Wang pitched more than well enough to win. Torre blew the game.

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Torre wasn't pitching. I was referring to the players on the field who allowed the D' Rays to come back and win.
It's Torre's job to put the best players on the field in the right situations and he consistently fails at that.

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Right..because he should have known that the guy on his roster who gets paid to do one thing and one thing only (get lefties out) was going to give up a decisive HR...to a lefty.
He pulled Wang too early just like he's been pulling starters early ALL SEASON LONG. He walks baldelli to try to get a DP with Vizcaino who sucks and has a .60 G/F when Wang should've just stayed in the game.

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Yesterday I said the Yanks bullpen had been abysmal.

I would like to change that statement.

The Yanks bullpen right now is pathetic.

The last game against Cleveland, the three against Boston and two against Tampa Bay the bullpen is 0-6 is shutting the door. Only Arod game winner against Cleveland has kept it from being worse.

Yet clueless joe CONTINUES to pull starters early and rely on this bullpen that has been nothing but HORRIBLE all year.

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If the bullpen keeps blowing games like this then he might have to extend his starters which in my mind would not be a bad thing considering the way he has abused the bullpen the last couple of seasons.

I can't blame him though for pulling Wang last night. He gave you 6+ in his first start back from injury. I would not have pushed it first time out either.

Pulling Pettite early on Friday I had a big problem with.

He had 81 friggin pitches.

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It is F'n April and Wang has been Out on DL for quite a while.... good thing you do not manage team

blame cashman for pathetic bullpen

He was on the DL with a LEG problem not an Arm. He was FINE to finish the inning.

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last i knew... you need both einstein, as your legs get tired it puts more stress on your arms and shoulder....

i'm sure you know that...=t you are the expert.. just blame torre and not your pathetic pen.

The reason the pen is pitching badly is because TORRE pulls every starter earlier than he should and that puts tremendous pressure on the bullpen and it's all on torre.

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Wang was on a pitch count last night, that is why they pulled him. When you ste a pitch count, normally you follow it.

Why would it be the pen's fault that Torre decides to go to them. They share no blame in not getting teh job done.

They are there for a reason.

the difference between 81 and 86 pitches is nothing. bringing in vizcaino who is overworked and terrible to get a DP is beyond stupid.

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So, you know with absolute certainty that Wang was not tired, and that 5 pitches would be all that was needed to finsih teh next batter, if he even got him out?

There are a lot of assumptions there that you can not jump to.

So he can start the inning but 6 pitches later he's tired and done? Give me a break.

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He brought in Vizcaino to intentionally walk a guy, and get the next hitter, which he did. Not to get a DP, although that would have been nuice if it happened. Then he brought in Myers to get 1 guy, which he did not.

If you're loading the bases it IS to get a DP.

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If you were watching the game, you would have noticed that the single and double Wang gave up in the 7th were pitches up in the zone. That tells me he was running out of gas, as he almost always leaves his stuff down.

Maybe he could have gone another batter or 2, maybe not. But if he was on a pitch count, and today's NY Post has an article that indicates he was (an 80 pitch limit), then Torre made the right call in the 7th.

It just didn't work out.

No he DID NOT. He was playing for the DP by walking Baldelli. And he brings in a pitcher with a .60 GF to get that DP which is insane by itself. If he was going to go to the pen he should've brought in Burney and played for the K. Thinking vizciano could get a DP overworked and ineffective as he is, shows what a horrible manager he is.

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If he strikes out the batter, Torre will have no complaints. Loading the bases is to set up the DP, but any kind of out that prevents a run from scoring is gladly welcomed.

THAN BRING IN BURNEY NOT VIZCAINO. He was CLEARLY playing for the DP.

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Bruney was toast. He is running on fumes. Or did you not notice from his last appearance, theh night before??
And Vizcaino wasn't? You can't have it both ways. He's pitched more than Burney has.

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Pick your poison.

Bruney failed misrabely the day before. So Vicaino seemed like the lessor of 2 evils.

Burney had ONE BAD OUTING all year. Every time Vizcaino pitches, he's garbage.

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I seriously doubt the last place Janks will still be in last when season ends,,it will get better.
Everyone knows that. Thats not the point. The point is the consistent mismanagement of this pitching staff.

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Vizcaino has appeared in 13 games and allowed 0 runs 9 times and has allowed no base runners five times. Please explain to me how a guy is pitching like garbage "every time" when he allows no base runners or no runs?

he has 10 walks in 12 innings. thats no baserunners? i understand you can't be realistic about him because of the Johnson trade and your need to justify that but he's been HORRIBLE.

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maybe the pitchers just arent pitching,,, it happens...

not that simple. the pitchers are not being used in the right situations.

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Yes...what I said was 100% pure fact. In five of his twelve outings he allowed not a single walk or hit. Please explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is pitching "like garbage". This should be good.

In his last 7 games he's walked at least one hitter EVERY TIME. Even someone with an agenda like you can realize that that is awful. 12ip 10bb is completely unacceptable and if you don't realize that you're just in denial.

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Thats not what you said. You said he has been garbage every time he's pitched. You have still yet to explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is "pitching like garbage".

He's currently pitching like garbage as his ugly walk numbers show. Not to mention his awful k9 and GF.

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Okay...the season is 19 games old. You're saying that a bullpen has been "nothing but HORRIBLE all year"

In their first 11 games of the season (which at this point is more than half of the games played) the Yankee bullpen had a collective ERA of 2.42 and if you take out the 3 run homer that Mo gave up it's 1.91. So now a bullpen with a collective ERA of 1.91 is HORRIBLE? In EIGHT of those games the bullpen allowed 2 ER or less. Please explain how this is HORRIBLE.

It's been horrible RECENTLY because of torre's mismanagement.

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I can agree with that. Just trying to get you to look at the big picture before you make comepletely inaccurate statements.

The big picture is (as i've been saying for years) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go. You're arguing semantically as usual instead of presenting any real ideas.

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Well this is what I mean. Because you HATE Joe Torre so much, you're allowing it to get you all worked up and yelling and screaming things that are just dead wrong. Do a little homework. Look at some stats. Pay attention to the games when you watch them. Make your own (accurate) conclusions and state a well informed opinion. It gives you credibility and improves the overall quality of the board.

It has nothing to do with hating Torre. It has to do with being able to see a pattern of consistent bullpen mismanagement that is YEARS old. And that is a well informed opinion as is everything i state. If you have a counter to my opinion i'll be happy to respond to it instead of your usual semantical crap.

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And as usual you're unable to have a discussion without taking some kind of shot at me becuase it makes you furious that I just proved you to be absolutely, undeniably, 100% dead wrong on two statements you were trying to use as the basis of your argument. Try having a discussion without finding a roundabout way of putting somebody down because they've proven you wrong.

You have no real argument as usual. You are making tiny semantical points which have nothing to do with the big picture. If you have a real argument that is fact based i'll be happy to hear it.

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There was no argument MadMike. I was just trying to help the discussion along by correcting your completely inaccurate statements. Some people who aren't watching the games as closely as I am might read what you're saying and think you were correct. Now that I've stepped in and pointed out your gross inaccuracies the thread is stronger because I used facts that proved your opinion to be driven by emotion as opposed to facts.
How about this? If you don't have a point other than semantical nitpicking don't post anything. Your argument is that "Vizciano is bad but a little less bad than you're saying." You have ZERO real argument.

And BTW the fact that the bullpen pitched well earlier in the season only goes to back MY point that torre is horrible at managing the pen.

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What I was saying was "MadMike, you're wrong" and I was right. Carry on.
My point was "Torre is terrible at managing a bullpen" if you want to try to prove that statement wrong go ahead. Because as usual you haven't even addressed the main point.

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Now it's not possible to prove an opinion right or wrong Mike. I know you love to rip people all the time and tell them how stupid they are becuase their opinions are different than yours. I dont do that. If you think Torre is terrible then I'm fine with that. If you're going to make grossly innacurate statements that can be proven wrong with facts then I'm going to point it out. It's bad when you're trying to make a point and in making that point you use completely false or innacurate statements to make that point. Oh, and of course I can always say that Joe Torre was managing the Yankees 'pen when they won four rings and he was the one that came up with what many consider to be the most lethal 1-2 combo of all time using Mo and Wettland back to back.

Again you have no argument. I guess Torre only gets credit for what happened 11 years ago but doesn't have to take any hits for his recent history of horrible bullpen management... And you can throw Cashman's awful record of signing bullpen pitchers in with that too.

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Mike, you can't PROVE that a bullpen has been mismanaged or not, all you can do is speculate,

It is entirely within teh realm of possibility that if Torre had a direct connection to you, and asked your opinion on every move, that those moves could have backfired too.

Again, as AFJ told you, it is impossible to prove a subjective opinion. I know you hate to hear that.

When you see pitchers pitching well, have a clear spike in innings and right after that start to preform much worse and that happens over and over again on the same team anyone will any common sense can see a pattern.

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I really can't fathom what you were trying to communicate there. i don't think I want to, as it seemed to portend your "higher than thou" persona again.
You can't understand what i wrote? It's happened A LOT of times that pitchers have come to the yankees or been yankees originally and have in a year or a part of a season, been pushed WAY beyond their previous innings figures which causes their performance level to decrease drastically over time. This happens because if a pitcher (usually a middle RP) starts pitching well at which time Torre starts overusing them. This has happened many times with many different pitchers. Good performance, than an innings spike than a big decline in performance.

Understand that? It's just common sense.

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Maybe its not your bullpen, maybe your starting pitching can't take them deep enough.

2 sides to very coin.

Don't lay everything out to be black and white, just because it is your opinion.

It doesn't matter what the starters do. it's up to the manager to make sure that the bullpen doesn't get overworked to the point that they lose their effectiveness and torre does the opposite. This has happened year after year after year on teams with good and bad starting pitching alike.

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There is no right situation right now. The bullpen is not getting ANYBODY out.

You can juggle and move guys around the pen all you want the bottom line is they all are pitching horribly.

Not true. There are certain guys who are pitching better than others or are better suited to different situations and torre has no concept of that.

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Yeah, how the starters do has no consequence on how worked the bullpen is worked.

OK. Care to re-think that?

No matter what the score of the games are or how the starters pitch it's up to the MANAGER to use the bullpen responsibility and not burn pitchers out. So according to you the many pitchers who have this pattern in many different years are ALL because of bad starting pitching? Thats a huge stretch.

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Mike they are are 2 weeks into the season. The bullpen is hardly worn out. The problem is is that other than Henn they are walking the balllpark and giving up the big hit.

You can shuffle the bullpen all you want the results are going to be the same.

Through 19 games torre has made more bullpen moves than any manager in baseball history. They have been CLEARLY overworked.

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