The Case for Namath (long)

[MSGold12]

Its been a hot topic here recently and so while this post may be lengthy, in my mind it is bnecessary to educate those who never saw the man play and rely solely on stats to evealuate Namath whtout taking into consideratin historical perspective. I mean if stats were evrything, Danny White and dave Kreig would be HOFers. BL, Namath was a great talent and did indeed have a Hall of Fame career. I will attack the 3 biggest argueemtns against Namath's greatness...

1. His overall stats were not great

2. He didn't win enough

3. He wasn't dominant enough in the short term to off set his stats and lack of post season.

OK, first let me start off with this. No one...not even the MOST ardant namath fan like myself will say that Joe was a top 5 all time QB. In my mind, the elite of the elite goes Unitas, Marino, Staubach, Montana, Elway. The order may differ but most have those 5 in the top 5. There are currently 23 QBs in the football HOF...I'd say Joe ranks somewhere in the 13-18 Tier 3 range wiht the likes Jurgensen, Griese, Tittle, dawson and Ailkan and ahead of guys oike Moon, waterfield, Blanda, Layne and Van Brocklin. No one is saying heis top 5...but he is top 15-20 whihc alone in my mind makes him an elite all time QB. Now on to specifics.

Arguement #1- His stats were not great

No they weren't...not in comaprison to the post 1978 QBs a least. He threw 47 more ints then tds and had a career 50% comp %. His 27,663 caree ryards rank him 43rd all time and his 7.1 YPA is not superlative. But lets look beyond thiose stats some. In namath's last 3 seasons (1975-1977) in two he played on two of the worst jets teams ever put on a field and in the 3rd in LA he was physically shot and never should have played. In those 3 final seasons, he threw just 22 tds and a whopping 49 ints. Thats 27 of that 47 differential...or nearly 60%. Additinally in those 3 seasons, he completed 48% of hs passes which dragged down his completion % by nearly a full point. His YPA was lousy in those 3 years also. So basically, Joe's stats are skewed a bit by those 3 seasons in whihc eihter NO QB could have done any beter with those teams (76 and 75) or he has no business being on the field anymore (77). But we don't penalize guys like Steve Carlton or Mickey mantle who held on too long and hurt their career stats and diminsh what were HOF careers...and we shuold do that wiht Namath.

In addition, you simply cannot compare the stats of QBs who played mostly post 1978 to the ones who played pre. The additional 2 games per season combined wiht the new rules for pass interference changed the game (and stats) drmaiotaically. Prior to 1978, DBs could harass and grab a WR all over the field and were rarely called for PI. After 1978, DBs couldnt touch him past 5 yards. This plus the added 2 games each year inflated QB stats dramatially. Go check out Staubach, Bradsahw and Griese pre 1978 comapred to post to see what I mean.

Len Dawson was brhgt up as a comaoprison. First off, dawson is a HOFer also so to be comapred to him in itself shows greatness. But while namath averaged 200 yards agame for his career...Dawson averaged 136. dawson was also a MUCH more controlled, short passer whihc inlfated his comp %. And being that every incopletion counts a 0 yards, if you are completing 7 or 8% more passes then everyone else, your YPA attmptis also going to be abnormally inflated asit is wiht dawson. But go check out other "gretaer" players pre 1978 stats. Bradshaw who is usualy ranked in the top 5 by many never broke 2500 yards a year until after 1978 and has only 2 more tds then picks. he also neer threw for 300 yardsin agame until super bowl 13! Staubach? had only 10 more tds then picks over his first 8 years, never threw for 3000 until after 1978. griese? Only 11 more total tds then total picks prior to 1978, 20+ tds only twice in his career, and averaged 155 yards per game for his career.

Argeuemt #2- He didnt win enough.

More so then any other sport, in football one man cannot be held acountable for his teams overall performance. There are SO many other factors. Joe is no expcetoin.

Namath played 13 years and made the playoffs 3 times (2 as a jet, 1 as a Ram). On papaer, that look pretty pedestrian. But consider the following...

Namath came to the jets in 1965...year 3 of a MASSIVE rebuild from the Titan era where only 4 or 5 players were kept. This was pre FA so the ony way to build was through the draft. This was also the era of two drafts (AFL and NFL) so even if you drafted a player, you could lose him to the opposong league until 1967 when the teams fianlly stopepd that madness. Basic assumtpion back then wa sit took 5 years to build a team. The 1965 team namath started wiht was just beginning to get the players they would win the SB with. In additon, from 1965-1968, nly one team from each divison in the AFL made the playoffs. From 1970-1977, only 4 teams made it (1 WC and 3 division winners). From 65-67, the team steadily improved going from 5 to 6 to 8 wins. In fact, had BOTH Rbs not gone down in 67, that team was well o its way to a division title. In 68 and 69, the jets won the division and made the post season. After the merger, one of the best NFL teams was put in the jets division (Balt) and that combined wiht the emerginf Miami dynasty (those two teams won the next 4 AFC champinships) pretty much relegated the jets to WC status from 1970-1974. Namath missed significant time in 70, 71, and 73 but in 72 and 74 had the team right in the thick of the playoff race to the end...only to miss by a game each time. Even in the years Namath got hurt there were extyenuating ciorcumstances. In 70, they lost NINE stareters (incuding Joe) to significant injury. In 73 they had 3 start players nmiss all of TC (Boozer, Riggins and Hill) in contract disoutes which killed their season. They also had only 6 home games due to the mets WS shcedule. Another factor to be considered is the jets astarted every season wiht minimum 4 games on the road becuase of the Mets. By the time they started their "home" games, they were almost always already in the hole and playing in poor weather in a crappy poor weather stadium. By 75 the jets were awful and God couldnt have lead them to the post season in either 75 or 76.

So overall, Namath had his team in playoff contention in 5 of 8 years between 1965-1974. In addition, Joes winning % as QB of record in that stretch was 54%. I'm not saying 75 and 76 shuld just be forgotten but NO QB could have taken those teams to the playoffs or even gone 500 iht them. Joe made the playoffs twice as a jet in that stretch and won a SB. But as metioned above, it is simply unfair and inaccurate to penalize Namath for post season appearances when the circumstances were different and making the playoffs was much more difficult.

Argument #3- Joe was not dominant enoughin the short term to offset his career stats and lack of post season.

This is absurd. I'll use 3 bona fide HOF all tie greats as examples. Gayle Sayers, Earl Campbell and OJ Simpson. All three of these players had 5 domiant years...and then tailed off dramaitcally due to njury, age or wear and tear. Yet no one questins the greatness of these players. So if the criteria for "greatness" is 5 dminant years, Joe certainly qualifies. 1965- As a rookie he averages 170 yards per game and is still one of the few rookies to throw for more Tds then ints (18-15). As for thse 18 tds, go checkand see how many times prior to 1978 Staubacj, Bradshw or Griese threw for 18 or more tds...namath did it as a rookie. He was named ROY and an all star. 1966- namath throws for 3400 yards, 19 tds. Again, go look up all the great QBs from the 70s and see how many times they broke 3000 yards prior to 1978. Team finishes 500. 1967- He throws for 4000 yards (an UNHEARD of total back then) on 52% and 26 tds and an 8+ YPA. His team was 6-2-1 when injries destroyed their running game making his passing achievements that year all the mor eimspressive since teams KNEW he was passing so much. 1968- 3000+ again wiht an 8+ YPA, he wins 11 games, is named league MVP, wins a SB and is named MVP of that. 1969- 2700 yards, 19 tds, 10 wins, divisin title, league MVP again. In those 5 seasons, namath never missed a game, averaged 3093 yards, nearly 20 tds and his winning % as a QB of rcord was 64%. he was league MVP tiwce, an all star 5 times, won a SB, and was genrally acknowledged as the most feared passer in the game. I wont even bring up his 1972 season (afer 2 years of injury) when he lead the NFL in passing yeards and tds and had TWO 400 yard games in a season.

yes, he threw alot of picks...but his ratio during that stretch was more then accpetable for the era and his large # of tds certainly contered that. additonally, Namath had a tendancy to throw picks in bunches. In 1968 for example he threw 18 for the year...10 came in 2 games menaing he had only 8 over the other 12 games. In 1967 he threw 11 of his 28 in 2 games...that left 17 over the other 12 or bearly 1 per game and he was theowing on almost every down the 2nd half of that year!. Stat junkies like to throw the int total out there to blast namath but they rarely look beyond the numbers.

If anyone doesnt think that is a "dominant" stretch worthy of greatness then again I say go look at the stats of the other 60s and 70s HOF QBs and see how many 3000 yard seasons or 20+ tds seasons they had. BL, namath was VERY dominant over that 5 year span and then contuunued his domiance in 1972 after 2 years of injury.

The conclsion on namath is this...he was a great player. Yes he had a lot of ints and no he did not play in a to of post season games. but he was a dominant player and the most feared passer in football for a 8 year period and his overall stats, while nt as impressive when out up against post 1978 QBs, ints aside are BETTER theh many of his pre 1978 contemporaries wh are considered among the best of all time.

At the end of the day, merelt reading a stat sheet or wathcing some NFL flms clips or even a tape of SB cannot gague Namath's greatness. As Al Davis said about him "it looks like hes playing down hill". Namath did things other QBs coud onyl dream about and alng wiht Marino and Jurgensen is the best pure passer to ever play. No, his career did not reahc the heights it prbably shouod have due to his own injury and the misfortune of playing on some VERY poor jet teams. And yes, he hung on a year or 2 too long whihc really hurt his career stats. But at the end of the day, Joe is proabbly up there wiht the top 15-20 QBs of ALL TIME and in my book, and in the books of MANY football experts who actaully SAW him play, did indeed have a great career.

[nyjunc]

Are you seriously giving him credit for a postseason appearance w/ the Rams when he played in 4 games? That should tell you his resue isn't thick enough right there. Namatah started 4 games and finished 3, they were 2-1 in the games he strtedlosing to the evntual 7-7 Falcons and beating the eventual 5-9 eagles and 5-9 Niners. he was hurt in a loss to the 9-5 Bears so after the 4 games LA was 2-2 and wound up going 10-4 and 8-2 w/o Joe. Joe was not a playoff QB that year so take that out of your argument or him.

[MSGold12]

Are you seriously giving him credit for a postseason appearance w/ the Rams when he played in 4 games? That should tell you his resue isn't thick enough right there. Namatah started 4 games and finished 3, they were 2-1 in the games he strtedlosing to the evntual 7-7 Falcons and beating the eventual 5-9 eagles and 5-9 Niners. he was hurt in a loss to the 9-5 Bears so after the 4 games LA was 2-2 and wound up going 10-4 and 8-2 w/o Joe. Joe was not a playoff QB that year so take that out of your argument or him.

Is that seriously all you took from the post???

And no...I am simply stating a fact that he was in the post season 3 times. And I am well aware of what he did that year as I watched him do it and also have all 4 of those games on dvd. He was responsible for 2 of the Rams wins that year and wason the roster for the season...thus he made the playoffs 3 rimes in his acreer. You will also note that other then mentioning it, I didnt exactly make it a highlight and said that he shouldnt have even been on the field in 1977.

Seriosly, if that is all you took from that post then dont bother responding because I will not be wasting my time wiht someone as closed minded and stat conciuos as you..

Hey Mods....why is this thread listed twice?????

[nyjunc]

Is that seriously all you took from the post???

And no...I am simply stating a fact that he was in the post season 3 times. And I am well aware of what he did that year as I watched him do it and also have all 4 of those games on dvd. He was responsible for 2 of the Rams wins that year and wason the roster for the season...thus he made the playoffs 3 rimes in his acreer. You will also note that other then mentioning it, I didnt exactly make it a highlight and said that he shouldnt have even been on the field in 1977.

Seriosly, if that is all you took from that post then dont bother responding because I will not be wasting my time wiht someone as closed minded and stat conciuos as you..

Hey Mods....why is this thread listed twice?????

I reponded to all your excuses in the other thread, I don't need to do it again here. There isn't any new info other than now Joe apparently is a 3 tme playoff QB even though he only led 2 teams to the playoffs. I guess Gale Gilbert is a 5 time AFC Championship QB then which is damn impressive.

[MSGold12]

I reponded to all your excuses in the other thread, I don't need to do it again here. There isn't any new info other than now Joe apparently is a 3 tme playoff QB even though he only led 2 teams to the playoffs. I guess Gale Gilbert is a 5 time AFC Championship QB then which is damn impressive.

Yeah and Rich Kotite made the playoffs in his first two years as a HC in Philly...I guess based on your superficial defense of Herm that makes him a good HC too huh Junior? All I said was that Namath was in the post season 3 times...whihc is fact. Alng wiht about 9 paragraphs of additional fact that you find to be "excuses". I guess in your Fabtasy Football mnd, if it isnt on tthe stat sheet, it must nt be important.

Intersting how you look at all refutations to your positions as "excuses"...says a lot about you there Junior. Now run along back to our stat sheets and leave the pre 1990 football analysis to those in the know.

You nrver even saw the man play yet when confronted woth facts that go betynd the numbers you spew from people who actually lived through his era and watched him...you still just stomp your feet and hold your breath.

Well Junior, I learned long ago that it is pointless to argue wiht the ignorant and arrogant...and you certainly fit into both categories. So this will be the last response you get from me on any post. Go love Hermy and hate on Joe Willie all you like. I'd appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy and not respond to any of mine either...I have zero interst in conversing with you further on any subject nor do I care to hear your ignorant opinions.

[nyjunc]

Yeah and Rich Kotite made the playoffs in his first two years as a HC in Philly...I guess based on your superficial defense of Herm that makes him a good HC too huh Junior? All I said was that Namath was in the post season 3 times...whihc is fact. Alng wiht about 9 paragraphs of additional fact that you find to be "excuses". I guess in your Fabtasy Football mnd, if it isnt on tthe stat sheet, it must nt be important.

Intersting how you look at all refutations to your positions as "excuses"...says a lot about you there Junior. Now run along back to our stat sheets and leave the pre 1990 football analysis to those in the know.

You nrver even saw the man play yet when confronted woth facts that go betynd the numbers you spew from people who actually lived through his era and watched him...you still just stomp your feet and hold your breath.

Well Junior, I learned long ago that it is pointless to argue wiht the ignorant and arrogant...and you certainly fit into both categories. So this will be the last response you get from me on any post. Go love Hermy and hate on Joe Willie all you like. I'd appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy and not respond to any of mine either...I have zero interst in conversing with you further on any subject nor do I care to hear your ignorant opinions.

The fact is Joe palyed in 2 playoffs, I don't even think he dressed in the Rams playoff game.

Kotite inherited a very good Philly team and drove them down, Herm inherited a Jets team on the decline, a team that no one wanted to coach ad he took us to 3 PO's in 5 years which no other coach has done in our history.

Let's look at your great argument for Joe:

Point #1:

You mention they weren't great then provide yet anothr excuse as to ehy they weren't great. You say his last 3 years he threw alot of picks and that made his #s look worse. In 1975 he threw 28 INTs, in 1967 he threw 28 INts- should we take away '67 too? Most QBs decline w/ age and their #s get worse, do we take away all other Qbs final years as well?

You compare Joe t Bradshaw? terry won 4 Sbs and had a positive TD to IN ratio. You compare Joe to Staubach? Staubach won a SB and made 3 others and was +44 TDs to INTs. Staubach had only 10 more Tds than picks over his first 8 years? What does that mean? Take away Joe's last 3 years and his ratio was still -20 and +10 is better than -20, correct? Griese led his team to 2 Championships and 3 SBs and was +20 TDs to INT. Joe's #s do not compare to anyone of his era.

Point #2:

The Jets had talent when Namatah arrived and were building a Championship team, that team should have made more than 2 PO appearances. if Joe was as great as you say he would have elevated them to more than 2 POs. A QB cannot do it on his own but he had help. You don;t have to win a SB but you do have to elevate your team and he clearly did not do that long enough. Kansas City won ONE playoff game after their SB win through th time Joe Montana took over and in his first year they won 2 playoff games- THAT'S a difference maker.

Point #3:

Obviously you cannot compare players of his era to players of today in terms of #s BUT you can cmpare him to players of his era and no great Qbs of his era had a -47 TD to INT ratio w/ just 2 PO appearances.

You said his #s, int's aside, are better than most of his pre '78 contemporaries. Read that again and hopefully you realize how silly that tatement is. That's like saying take away the Steelers 5 SB's and they are just an average organization.

This is your argument? and you are taking shots at me? just b/c your post was long doesn't make it correct. Go back and read it and see that tere isn't much to it besides length.