Scott Dierking Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 atkins is a joke this year adrian gonzalez is new to baseball hawpe and holliday are inflated by coors helton is inflated, plus hes on the downside of his career this season bonds* would probably be given the day off next time he plays against the dbacks being a lefty jeff kent and nomar? wow thats scary Fans that talk about Coor's field inflated numbers, just have not watched baseball in the last 1.5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Al East lineups are the strongest in baseball. What would you consider a strong line-up? One that scores a lot of runs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Where did I say that? Even though Abreu and Drew are struggling, they have track records. Damon and Cano are starting to hit, and like Abreu and Drew, they have track records. I didnt even put Giambi on the list, who was raking the ball until his injury. Giambi was 11 for his last 62 with 7 RBI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Giambi was 11 for his last 62 with 7 RBI's. And while he was doing that he was injuried. Difference was it hadn't torn yet, but he was still injuried, trying to play through it. Now it's 75% torn and now he has to sit out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I stand behind the statement, if the Yankees were magically placed in teh NL West, their record would be very similar to what it is now. What, the Yankee bats are suddenly going to become clutch facing Jake Peavy, Chris Young, Brad Penny, Matt Cain, Lincecum? Their bullpen is going to fix the leaky sieve? You guys youy can talk line-up's all that you want in that softball league, but it is TEAMS that win championships. Look no further than the last Yankee championships, and the most recent incarnation of the team. Cain has no control, he'd get beaten around in the AL, just like the Mets beat him around. The Mets have an AL type of lineup in how good it is. Peavy is nasty, Penny is decent. Al east also has Halladay, Kazmir, Beckett, Schilling, Wang, Pettitte, Bedard, Cabrera, Burnett - these guys are all nasty. I never said teams dont win championships. That has nothing to with this discussion though. I am just pointing out the fact that Al East lineups are the strongest in baseball. You can look at runs scored this year and say they arent, but by the end of the year it will be different. Gimmeshelter Giambi was 11 for his last 62 with 7 RBI's. Hence, the reason why I said he was raking UNTIL his injury..... He's been injured for weeks, and is just now going on the DL. He hit .320 in April and was looking like the Giambi of past until his injury. I left him off the list too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 How about Chipper, Andruw, Renteria, Kelly Johnson, Wright, Delgado, Beltran, Reyes, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Burrell, Zimmerman, Cabrera, Hanley, and Uggla? Are those guys in the NL West? LOL This discussiion is NL West lineups vs AL East lineups. All those guys you listed play in the NL East. NL East is a good hitting division, just not as good as the Al East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Cain has no control, he'd get beaten around in the AL, just like the Mets beat him around. The Mets have an AL type of lineup in how good it is. Peavy is nasty, Penny is decent. Al east also has Halladay, Kazmir, Beckett, Schilling, Wang, Pettitte, Bedard, Cabrera, Burnett - these guys are all nasty. I never said teams dont win championships. That has nothing to with this discussion though. I am just pointing out the fact that Al East lineups are the strongest in baseball. You can look at runs scored this year and say they arent, but by the end of the year it will be different. Hence, the reason why I said he was raking UNTIL his injury..... He's been injured for weeks, and is just now going on the DL. He hit .320 in April and was looking like the Giambi of past until his injury. I left him off the list too So you are now saying they WILL be one of the better divisions for hitting, but aren't now? Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 So you are now saying they WILL be one of the better divisions for hitting, but aren't now? Which is it? The Al east has always been a really good division for hitting. I'm not sure where they are in runs scored right now. I dont know where they keep stats for division hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 The Al east has always been a really good division for hitting. I'm not sure where they are in runs scored right now. I dont know where they keep stats for division hitting. Are you talking history or right now? I am just trying to understand what you are saying, you keep waivering. First the AL East was better than then NL West in hitting? Then it was the best in baseball. Then it is not the best in baseball, but will be. Now, you are saying that historically they are one of the best. care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Here Barton, I will do you a favor. This is where my thinking is. If you are going to claim as one of the best line-ups, through a division in baseball, I would use the criteria of runs scored. You may be using homeruns, balls hit to teh warning tracks, OPS, bimbos in bed with, I don't know. You didn't specify. So I went with runs scored, as that is the obvious goal of a line-up. In comparing the AL East to the NL East in runs scored to date (we are roughly 1/3 through the season, a fair sample), to make your claim stick, I would have expected to see an inordinate amount of more runs put up by teh AL East vs the NL East, combined for all the teams. Especially given teh added factor of the DH vs a pitcher hitting. Runs scored by each division thus far in 2007: AL East: 1267 NL East: 1258 I am not buying what you are selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 And while he was doing that he was injuried. Difference was it hadn't torn yet, but he was still injuried, trying to play through it. Now it's 75% torn and now he has to sit out. You're right he did have a decent April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Are you talking history or right now? I am just trying to understand what you are saying, you keep waivering. First the AL East was better than then NL West in hitting? Then it was the best in baseball. Then it is not the best in baseball, but will be. Now, you are saying that historically they are one of the best. care to elaborate? You're trying to read between the lines when there's nothing I didnt make clear. The AL east has the best lineups in baseball. And I said, even if they are not better right now (in terms of runs scored) than any NL division or AL division (I dont know if they are, I'm just sayin'), they will be by the end of the year. In the last few years, the AL East has been ridiculous with their lineups. I dont need to go into specifics, all you have to do is look at all the great hitters in the AL East. BTW, runs scored is not the end all be all. It doesnt take into effect how good the pitching is the AL East lineups are facing vs how good the pitching the divisions in the NL are facing. And I dont think I'm going out on a limb by saying the AL has better pitching than the NL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Here Barton, I will do you a favor. This is where my thinking is. If you are going to claim as one of the best line-ups, through a division in baseball, I would use the criteria of runs scored. You may be using homeruns, balls hit to teh warning tracks, OPS, bimbos in bed with, I don't know. You didn't specify. So I went with runs scored, as that is the obvious goal of a line-up. In comparing the AL East to the NL East in runs scored to date (we are roughly 1/3 through the season, a fair sample), to make your claim stick, I would have expected to see an inordinate amount of more runs put up by teh AL East vs the NL East, combined for all the teams. Especially given teh added factor of the DH vs a pitcher hitting. Runs scored by each division thus far in 2007: AL East: 1267 NL East: 1258 I am not buying what you are selling. Those numbers will grow for the AL east, they'll end up scoring alot more runs than the NL east by the end of the year. And they'll blow out the NL West. NL West: 1149 runs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toon88 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 AL teams should score more runs than NL teams, on the whole. They have a DH, no weak hitting 8th hitter and no pitcher. I don't think its rocker science to think the AL top teams will outscore the top NL teams by a pretty decent amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 The Al east has always been a really good division for hitting. I'm not sure where they are in runs scored right now. I dont know where they keep stats for division hitting. AL Central is the best right now. http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/stats/teamsort/regularseason/yearly/AL/HIT/BASIC?&_1:col_1=4&_1:col_2=8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Are those guys in the NL West? LOL This discussiion is NL West lineups vs AL East lineups. All those guys you listed play in the NL East. NL East is a good hitting division, just not as good as the Al East. The post of yours that I quoted contained this: I dont think there's any division close to as good as the Al east in terms of lineups. I think I showed you a division that was close to the mighty AL East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 In the last few years, the AL East has been ridiculous with their lineups. I dont need to go into specifics, . Yeah, because if you went into specifics, your argument would be greatly flawed. Way to use the old parlor trick of "They WILL be the best by the end of the year", rather than using what has actually happened on the field now. The NL East has as many runs scored as the AL EAST with a pitcher in place of the DH. Yeah, very intimidating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Yeah, because if you went into specifics, your argument would be greatly flawed. Way to use the old parlor trick of "They WILL be the best by the end of the year", rather than using what has actually happened on the field now. The NL East has as many runs scored as the AL EAST with a pitcher in place of the DH. Yeah, very intimidating. Thats because the AL East has better pitching. Look, I dont need to go into specifics because all you have to do is compare the lineup cards - the AL east has the best hitters in the league, far better than the NL West thats for sure. Also, 2 months is a small sample size, give it the whole year. The AL East lineups if put in the NL would have a feast. You can compare runs scored, but that doesnt take into account the quality of pitching one faces, so its slightly flawed. Just compare the number of good hitters in the AL East to the number of good hitters in the NL West or any other division and you'll see the AL East has the best hitters. Its very simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 And there is no disputing the AL East vs. NL East in Starting Pitching, it isn't even close. Halladay, Pettitte, Schilling, Beckett, Clemens vs Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson, Willis, Maine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 The post of yours that I quoted contained this: I think I showed you a division that was close to the mighty AL East. I see your point, but let me say this. Jeter, Arod, Matsui, Posada, Manny, Ortiz, Lowell, Youlkilis, Abreu, Damon, Cano, Drew, Giambi, Tejada, Markakis, Hernandez, Vernon Wells, Overbay, Rios, Glaus, Hill, Crawford, Upton, Young, Baldelli, Iwamura > Chipper, Andruw, Renteria, Kelly Johnson, Wright, Delgado, Beltran, Reyes, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Burrell, Zimmerman, Cabrera, Hanley, and Uggla? For the math wizs thats 26 for the AL East and 16 for the NL East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 And there is no disputing the AL East vs. NL East in Starting Pitching, it isn't even close. Halladay, Pettitte, Schilling, Beckett, Clemens vs Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson, Willis, Maine And you forgot to put in Erik Bedard, AJ Burnett, Scott Kazmir, Mike Mussina and Chien Ming Wang for the Al East. Hamels, Perez for the NL East. Al East has the better pitching & hitting. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 AHHH....the good ole better division talk. Yanks must be having a rough year. http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/stats/teamsort/regularseason/yearly/MLB/PIT/BASIC?&_1:col_1=10 Meanwhile the BEST staff in NY throws another gem today.....Roger that. I'd also take the Mets, Indians, Tigers lineups over most of the AL East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Thats because the AL East has better pitching. Look, I dont need to go into specifics because all you have to do is compare the lineup cards - the AL east has the best hitters in the league, far better than the NL West thats for sure. Also, 2 months is a small sample size, give it the whole year. The AL East lineups if put in the NL would have a feast. You can compare runs scored, but that doesnt take into account the quality of pitching one faces, so its slightly flawed. Just compare the number of good hitters in the AL East to the number of good hitters in the NL West or any other division and you'll see the AL East has the best hitters. Its very simple. Hmmmm So, teh AL East has the best line-ups, has the best pitching, YET the teams (less the Red Sox), are not even mediocre. Some really flawed logic you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I see your point, but let me say this. Jeter, Arod, Matsui, Posada, Manny, Ortiz, Lowell, Youlkilis, Abreu, Damon, Cano, Drew, Giambi, Tejada, Markakis, Hernandez, Vernon Wells, Overbay, Rios, Glaus, Hill, Crawford, Upton, Young, Baldelli, Iwamura > Chipper, Andruw, Renteria, Kelly Johnson, Wright, Delgado, Beltran, Reyes, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Burrell, Zimmerman, Cabrera, Hanley, and Uggla? For the math wizs thats 26 for the AL East and 16 for the NL East. WTF has Iwamura ever done? Play well for a month, then get injured? You are really stretching it by including people like him, Baldelli, and Hernandez. And Youk is just on a hot streak. I guess I can include Dmitri Young for the NL East if you can include Kevin Youkilis, right? BTW, half of your list is Yanks and Sox. I guess it's pretty easy for a divison to have fearsome lineups whenever it contains the two highest payroll teams in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 WTF has Iwamura ever done? Play well for a month, then get injured? You are really stretching it by including people like him, Baldelli, and Hernandez. And Youk is just on a hot streak. I guess I can include Dmitri Young for the NL East if you can include Kevin Youkilis, right? BTW, half of your list is Yanks and Sox. I guess it's pretty easy for a divison to have fearsome lineups whenever it contains the two highest payroll teams in baseball. Thats fair, but I think its safe to say Youlkilis is no fluke but we'll see. Iwamura has been great this year, but thats a fair point, although his approach at the plate is a good one. Hernandez, the O's catcher, has been one of the better hitting catchers for the last couple years, nothing special but pretty solid. Baldelli eats lighting and craps thunder, nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Hmmmm So, teh AL East has the best line-ups, has the best pitching, YET the teams (less the Red Sox), are not even mediocre. Some really flawed logic you are using. Small sample size. Jays had 87 wins last year (more than the Cardinals), so did the Sox. And the yankees won 97 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 WTF has Iwamura ever done? Play well for a month, then get injured? You are really stretching it by including people like him, Baldelli, and Hernandez. And Youk is just on a hot streak. I guess I can include Dmitri Young for the NL East if you can include Kevin Youkilis, right? BTW, half of your list is Yanks and Sox. I guess it's pretty easy for a divison to have fearsome lineups whenever it contains the two highest payroll teams in baseball. his last 3 years in Japan: 2004 44 home runs, 103 rbi, .300 ba 2005 30 home runs, 102 rbi, .319 ba 2006 32 home runs, 77 rbi, .311 ba and so far in the majors he's hitting .362 and slugging over .500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 his last 3 years in Japan: 2004 44 home runs, 103 rbi, .300 ba 2005 30 home runs, 102 rbi, .319 ba 2006 32 home runs, 77 rbi, .311 ba and so far in the majors he's hitting .362 and slugging over .500. Would you mind posting Kei Igawa, Hideki Irabu, and Kaz Matsui's Japanese stats while you're at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Would you mind posting Kei Igawa, Hideki Irabu, and Kaz Matsui's Japanese stats while you're at it? so you don't care much for Ichiro or Hideki Matsui? Japanese baseball has produced a decent amount of star hitters, who says Iwamura or whatevfer the hell his name is can't be the next one? just imagine if Sadahara Oh had went into the majors in the '70s, baseball would've been changed completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Small sample size. Jays had 87 wins last year (more than the Cardinals), so did the Sox. And the yankees won 97 games. Oh I am sorry Barton. I thiought we were talking about THIS year. that changes things. You can talk about the past, but it really does not carry much weight for me. I will stick to this year, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Oh I am sorry Barton. I thiought we were talking about THIS year. that changes things. You can talk about the past, but it really does not carry much weight for me. I will stick to this year, Ok. If you like to assume things on small sample sizes go right ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 so you don't care much for Ichiro or Hideki Matsui? Japanese baseball has produced a decent amount of star hitters, who says Iwamura or whatevfer the hell his name is can't be the next one? just imagine if Sadahara Oh had went into the majors in the '70s, baseball would've been changed completely. My point is that it's a little early to put a guy that has played in exactly 22 Major League games on a list of great MLB hitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Ok. If you like to assume things on small sample sizes go right ahead. Barton, you saidbest line-ups THIS year. What do you want to compare things on, numbers from 1947? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 My point is that it's a little early to put a guy that has played in exactly 22 Major League games on a list of great MLB hitters. But I didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Barton, you saidbest line-ups THIS year. What do you want to compare things on, numbers from 1947? well Dimaggio hit 20 homers, 97 RBI and at a .315 batting average Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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