What Cahsman cost the Yankees

[mbn007]

Because luck is a factor in baseball. Judging by his peripherals such as BAA, K9, BBK, H/IP and so on it's pretty clear that he pitched better than a 5 or so ERA.

I have whiplash from watching many of the "shots" he gave up last year. I don't care at all about numbers, but what I see. And I saw an old, unhappy pitcher, being paid a ton of money, who was not worth it, and did not want to be here.

He needed to be moved, ASAP. Even getting nothing but salary relief was worth it for all partners of this trade. And you can't judge how the trade worked out until the prospects either make it, or or gone.. That won't happen until after 2008, at the earliest.

We have had this very argument many times in many different threads over the past several months, or since the trade was done. I disagree with you. You are "locked" into your opinion, and I have mine. I am done here, as this is re-visiting the same argument, with nothing new being added.

Randy is gone now, and I wish him well. Maybe he will have a Cy Young season for the "snakes". But IMO, he was close to a failure here. He was not the pitcher he was paid to be, and he did not get it done in the post-season, which is the primary reason he was brought here.

[shawn306]

I have whiplash from watching many of the "shots" he gave up last year. I don't care at all about numbers, but what I see. And I saw an old, unhappy pitcher, being paid a ton of money, who was not worth it, and did not want to be here.

He needed to be moved, ASAP. Even getting nothing but salary relief was worth it for all partners of this trade. And you can't judge how the trade worked out until the prospects either make it, or or gone.. That won't happen until after 2008, at the earliest.

We have had this very argument many times in many different threads over the past several months, or since the trade was done. I disagree with you. You are "locked" into your opinion, and I have mine. I am done here, as this is re-visiting the same argument, with nothing new being added.

Randy is gone now, and I wish him well. Maybe he will have a Cy Young season for the "snakes". But IMO, he was close to a failure here. He was not the pitcher he was paid to be, and he did not get it done in the post-season, which is the primary reason he was brought here.

Ding Ding Ding and thats a winner.

Mike, you can throw out all the numbers you want. Bottom line is the moment Johnson got off the plane and got into it with reporters he was doomed to fail.

There are some guys who just cannot handle playing on the big stage on a night in night out basis. Johnson could win 20 this year and strike out 300 and win a Cy Young award, doesn't mean he would have done it here in New York.

The fact that the Yankees were able to get ANYTHING for him with the money he was making was a win for the Yankees.

[AFJF]

The two posts above are 100% dead on accurate. I love the fact that there are some Yankee fans on this board that bring a degree of reality, objectivity and just all around quality posting to this board that helps to offset those who are misinformed, irrational, and screaming/begging for attention and recognition. Good job guys.

[Scott Dierking]

Ding Ding Ding and thats a winner.

Mike, you can throw out all the numbers you want. Bottom line is the moment Johnson got off the plane and got into it with reporters he was doomed to fail.

There are some guys who just cannot handle playing on the big stage on a night in night out basis. Johnson could win 20 this year and strike out 300 and win a Cy Young award, doesn't mean he would have done it here in New York.

The fact that the Yankees were able to get ANYTHING for him with the money he was making was a win for the Yankees.

Wait one second-You are telling me that we can't treat players' numbers in a vacuum and that there are numerous outside forces that make it a near impossibility of accurately projecting one players numbers on one team to another team?

That is just numbing.

Who would of that that?

Next thing you are going to tell me that it is impossible to project Babe Ruth's homerun total in the modern game.

Well, here goes my fantasized 1982 Jet Super Bowl with John Riggins rushing for 212 yards in the title game, if only we had kept him.

Damn.

[AFJF]

Wait one second-You are telling me that we can't treat players' numbers in a vacuum and that there are numerous outside forces that make it a near impossibility of accurately projecting one players numbers on one team to another team?

That is just numbing.

Who would of that that?

Next thing you are going to tell me that it is impossible to project Babe Ruth's homerun total in the modern game.

Well, here goes my fantasized 1982 Jet Super Bowl with John Riggins rushing for 212 yards in the title game, if only we had kept him.

Damn.

SD...please don't tell me you're trying to imply that the ole "crystal ball" method doesn't work. Ya know..the one where you look at a guys performance from one season and can instantly project what he'll do the following season...please tell me you don't think that to be untrue.

[Scott Dierking]

SD...please don't tell me you're trying to imply that the ole "crystal ball" method doesn't work. Ya know..the one where you look at a guys performance from one season and can instantly project what he'll do the following season...please tell me you don't think that to be untrue.

Pure heresy.

[shawn306]

Wait one second-You are telling me that we can't treat players' numbers in a vacuum and that there are numerous outside forces that make it a near impossibility of accurately projecting one players numbers on one team to another team?

That is just numbing.

Who would of that that?

Next thing you are going to tell me that it is impossible to project Babe Ruth's homerun total in the modern game.

Well, here goes my fantasized 1982 Jet Super Bowl with John Riggins rushing for 212 yards in the title game, if only we had kept him.

Damn.

That's pretty funny.

[madmike1]

Ding Ding Ding and thats a winner.

Mike, you can throw out all the numbers you want. Bottom line is the moment Johnson got off the plane and got into it with reporters he was doomed to fail.

There are some guys who just cannot handle playing on the big stage on a night in night out basis. Johnson could win 20 this year and strike out 300 and win a Cy Young award, doesn't mean he would have done it here in New York.

The fact that the Yankees were able to get ANYTHING for him with the money he was making was a win for the Yankees.

Why was he doomed to fail? Because you don't like him? Because he's a bad guy? Because he wasn't the same pitcher as he was in the mid 90s? Was he afraid of new york in 05 when he was 5-0 vs boston and pitched the yankees into the playoffs? The yankees got one WELL above average year from him and one year where he was hurt and pitched with a high ERA with good numbers other than that. He was clearly worth more than what they got for him. The idea that this was a worthless player that needed to be dumped for nothing is just wrong.

[GimmeShelter]

I guess the question is would the Yanks be better with Sheffield and Randy TODAY?

Prospects are crap shoots, especially injured ones.

[Scott Dierking]

he was 5-0 vs boston

Wins are a team stat.

I thought you knew better than that.

[madmike1]

I guess the question is would the Yanks be better with Sheffield and Randy TODAY?

Prospects are crap shoots, especially injured ones.

They aren't crap shoots they are educated guesses. Thats why you don't see me killing the Sheffield trade. That was a situation where the yankees got some good prospects in return. I knew the players we got back in the Johnson trade were garbage from the second the deal was made.

[shawn306]

Why was he doomed to fail? Because you don't like him? Because he's a bad guy? Because he wasn't the same pitcher as he was in the mid 90s? Was he afraid of new york in 05 when he was 5-0 vs boston and pitched the yankees into the playoffs? The yankees got one WELL above average year from him and one year where he was hurt and pitched with a high ERA with good numbers other than that. He was clearly worth more than what they got for him. The idea that this was a worthless player that needed to be dumped for nothing is just wrong.

Because the media and the fans eat up guys like Johnson when the don't perfrom.

We all got used to see Johnson as a dominant pitcher. In his years with the D-Backs minus 03 when he was hurt he was pitching to an ERA under 3 and striking out 300 batters. The most he struck with the Yankees was 211. Are you not seeing a slide there ?

Add to the fact that he was AWFUL in his two post season starts with the Yankees, carries a huge contract and a gimpy back and do you still the think the Yanks should have gotten something valuable for him ?

[madmike1]

Because the media and the fans eat up guys like Johnson when the don't perfrom.

We all got used to see Johnson as a dominant pitcher. In his years with the D-Backs minus 03 when he was hurt he was pitching to an ERA under 3 and striking out 300 batters. The most he struck with the Yankees was 211. Are you not seeing a slide there ?

I've said over and over again that he wasn't the same guy but that doesn't mean he wasn't effective. Your expectations were so out of whack for him that you're trying to convince me that a 211 K season is bad LOL

Add to the fact that he was AWFUL in his two post season starts with the Yankees, carries a huge contract and a gimpy back and do you still the think the Yanks should have gotten something valuable for him ?

So his 2 playoff starts (1 of which he was hurt in) is enough to dump him? I guess no other Yankee pitcher has had bad playoff starts... And did you ever think that maybe he really was hurt last year and the operation he had might have helped him pitch BETTER (as it's doing right now.)

[shawn306]

Why was he doomed to fail? Because you don't like him? Because he's a bad guy? Because he wasn't the same pitcher as he was in the mid 90s? Was he afraid of new york in 05 when he was 5-0 vs boston and pitched the yankees into the playoffs? The yankees got one WELL above average year from him and one year where he was hurt and pitched with a high ERA with good numbers other than that. He was clearly worth more than what they got for him. The idea that this was a worthless player that needed to be dumped for nothing is just wrong.

Because the media and the fans eat up guys like Johnson when the don't perfrom.

We all got used to see Johnson as a dominant pitcher. In his years with the D-Backs minus 03 when he was hurt he was pitching to an ERA under 3 and striking out 300 batters. The most he struck with the Yankees was 211. Are you not seeing a slide there ?

Add to the fact that he was AWFUL in his two post season starts with the Yankees, carries a huge contract and a gimpy back and do you still the think the Yanks should have gotten something valuable for him ?

If you have followed the Yankees long enough you know this happens. Some guys just don't handle glare of the New York spotlight.

Ed Whitson

Roy Smalley

Steve Kemp

Kenny Rogers

Denny Nagle

Jeff Weaver

Javy Vazquez

Randy Johnson

[GimmeShelter]

They aren't crap shoots they are educated guesses. Thats why you don't see me killing the Sheffield trade. That was a situation where the yankees got some good prospects in return. I knew the players we got back in the Johnson trade were garbage from the second the deal was made.

Wasn't the Sanchez pitcher a well known injury risk?

Also Johnson had a very good 1st year in NY and a bad 2nd one in which he still won 17 games.

[#90]

Don't forget about Ted Lilly! He was dying to come back to the Yankees. But, Cash wanted the sucky Jap for $46 million. Yup, he knows what he is doing.

[madmike1]

Wasn't the Sanchez pitcher a well known injury risk?

Also Johnson had a very good 1st year in NY and a bad 2nd one in which he still won 17 games.

Sanchez was a known Injury risk but TJ is something that pitchers can return from and they also got 2 good RP prospects in that trade. The second Sanchez stepped out of James Andrews' office he will still be 10x more valuable than anything they got for johnson.

[shawn306]

I've said over and over again that he wasn't the same guy but that doesn't mean he wasn't effective. Your expectations were so out of whack for him that you're trying to convince me that a 211 K season is bad LOL

So his 2 playoff starts (1 of which he was hurt in) is enough to dump him? I guess no other Yankee pitcher has had bad playoff starts... And did you ever think that maybe he really was hurt last year and the operation he had might have helped him pitch BETTER (as it's doing right now.)

Yes. When he was brought here he was supposed to be the ace. He didn't pitch like an ace and yes when the Yanks needed him most in Game 3 against the Angels he sh!t the bed.

The only time Johnson pitched like the Johnson of old was towards the end of the 05 season when he went 6-0 down the stretch.

[madmike1]

Because the media and the fans eat up guys like Johnson when the don't perfrom.

We all got used to see Johnson as a dominant pitcher. In his years with the D-Backs minus 03 when he was hurt he was pitching to an ERA under 3 and striking out 300 batters. The most he struck with the Yankees was 211. Are you not seeing a slide there ?

Add to the fact that he was AWFUL in his two post season starts with the Yankees, carries a huge contract and a gimpy back and do you still the think the Yanks should have gotten something valuable for him ?

If you have followed the Yankees long enough you know this happens. Some guys just don't handle glare of the New York spotlight.

Ed Whitson

Roy Smalley

Steve Kemp

Kenny Rogers

Denny Nagle

Jeff Weaver

Javy Vazquez

Randy Johnson

How do you explain his very good 2005 season if thats true? He basically pitched in the yankees into the playoffs that year.

[madmike1]

Yes. When he was brought here he was supposed to be the ace. He didn't pitch like an ace and yes when the Yanks needed him most in Game 3 against the Angels he sh!t the bed.

The only time Johnson pitched like the Johnson of old was towards the end of the 05 season when he went 6-0 down the stretch.

Alot of yankees sh!t the bed in that series. You don't make personnel moves based on one game.

[shawn306]

How do you explain his very good 2005 season if thats true? He basically pitched in the yankees into the playoffs that year.

Like I said he had a stretch from the end of August to the end of the season where he looked like the Johnson of old going like 6-0 and then blew up against the Angels.

So for basically a 30 day stretch we got the Randy Johnson we expected. The rest of the time he was a shell of his former self making ace money.

Bottom line on Randy Johnson

He was brought here to be an ace. Was he the ace ? No.

[madmike1]

Like I said he had a stretch from the end of August to the end of the season where he looked like the Johnson of old going like 6-0 and then blew up against the Angels.

So for basically a 30 day stretch we got the Randy Johnson we expected. The rest of the time he was a shell of his former self making ace money.

Bottom line on Randy Johnson

He was brought here to be an ace. Was he the ace ? No.

So there are only 2 kinds of pitchers: Aces and guys who can be given away for nothing with your approval?

[AFJF]

Like I said he had a stretch from the end of August to the end of the season where he looked like the Johnson of old going like 6-0 and then blew up against the Angels.

So for basically a 30 day stretch we got the Randy Johnson we expected. The rest of the time he was a shell of his former self making ace money.

Bottom line on Randy Johnson

He was brought here to be an ace. Was he the ace ? No.

BINGO

[madmike1]

By the flawed logic on display in this thread any pitcher who isn't an ace is worthless.

[MasonJet]

By the flawed logic on display in this thread any pitcher who isn't an ace is worthless.

That's not even close to what shawn said. Shawn's point was that RJ was brought here to be an ace and was paid as such but performed nowhere near that level, c'mon madmike that was a pretty simple point.

[madmike1]

That's not even close to what shawn said. Shawn's point was that RJ was brought here to be an ace and was paid as such but performed nowhere near that level, c'mon madmike that was a pretty simple point.

His argument is that because he didn't pitch like an ace that he's worthless.

[MasonJet]

His argument is that because he didn't pitch like an ace that he's worthless.

False.

[madmike1]

False.

No. True. He's saying that randy didn't pitch like an ace (which i never said he did) and that makes it OK to trade him for nothing.

[MasonJet]

No. True. He's saying that randy didn't pitch like an ace (which i never said he did) and that makes it OK to trade him for nothing.

It's like talking to a brick wall. I've already had enough of debating you so if Shawn wants to continue than he can but I can't take anymore of it.

[madmike1]

It's like talking to a brick wall. I've already had enough of debating you so if Shawn wants to continue than he can but I can't take anymore of it.

What the hell are you talking about? Shawn make a post trying to justify the trade by saying he's not an ace. It couldn't be more simple.

[shawn306]

So there are only 2 kinds of pitchers: Aces and guys who can be given away for nothing with your approval?

WTF are you talking about ?

Cashman got 4 guys. Maybe the will be good maybe the won't see the light of Yankee Stadium. If they do then it will be a good trade. Then it still isn't a bad deal because Cashman got rid of a 43 yr old pitcher making a ton of money and had a bad back.

If ONE just one of these guys comes up and makes a significant contribution be it in 07, 08 or 09 then the deal is a good deal.

[#27TheDominator]

$17 Million for a 5.00 ERA is okay because he had back surgery. 43 year old players with back surgery always improve greatly on their prior seasons. It is fine to trade him even for nothing, because he wasn't worth the money. Even if it's just for public opinion, I feel better about the team not carrying his salary for a #4 starter.

[AFJF]

$17 Million for a 5.00 ERA is okay because he had back surgery. 43 year old players with back surgery always improve greatly on their prior seasons. It is fine to trade him even for nothing, because he wasn't worth the money. Even if it's just for public opinion, I feel better about the team not carrying his salary for a #4 starter.

=D>

[mbn007]

If you have followed the Yankees long enough you know this happens. Some guys just don't handle glare of the New York spotlight.

Ed Whitson

Roy Smalley

Steve Kemp

Kenny Rogers

Denny Nagle

Jeff Weaver

Javy Vazquez

Randy Johnson

Don't forget the infamous Steve Trout. The guy Steinbrenner told the media was goingto win teh WS for the Yankees.

After he finds where the strike zone is, I guess.

[shawn306]

Don't forget the infamous Steve Trout. The guy Steinbrenner told the media was goingto win teh WS for the Yankees.

After he finds where the strike zone is, I guess.

yeah thats right go ahead p!ss me off even more.