Thor99 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Or numbers can help open minded people see that these old baseball myths really don't have any value... I agree that numbers can help project future achievements. But they are not the be all end all. Managers often make a move based on a 'hunch'. Can you quantify a hunch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I guess if someone makes a point you cant refute, you revert to personal attacks. Nice baseball talk. LOL @ point I can't refute. I have real data and years of other people's work that agree with me. You have your 1930's baseball IQ and old wives tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 LOL @ point I can't refute. I have real data and years of other people's work that agree with me. You have your 1930's baseball IQ and old wives tales. Show us the real data Mike. Demonstrate and prove your point. Mike, do some players think through their position better when they are the field. Yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Mike, do some players think through their position better when they are the field. Yes or no? If CATCHERS do it has no real impact on the outcomes of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 BTW when people publish these studies they don't do it for free. They need to make a living too. The one i'm refering to is in this book. http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Between-Numbers-Prospectus-Experts/dp/0465005969 Not that you would ever want to learn anything more than what your 1930's baseball IQ tells you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Because torre is stupid, posada needs a rest or the yankees punted a roster spot. It's usually one of those. So it has nothing to do with the fact that Mussina feels more comfortable with Nieves calling the game than Posada? Don't you feel it's kind of a coincidence that Posada needs a "rest" whenever Mussina's spot in the rotation comes around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 So it has nothing to do with the fact that Mussina feels more comfortable with Nieves calling the game than Posada? Don't you feel it's kind of a coincidence that Posada needs a "rest" whenever Mussina's spot in the rotation comes around? See who catches Mussina tomorrow. It won't be Nieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 If you are so smart why are you a late 30's old timer with nothing better to do than to post on a message board all day? Pathetic. At least when i post it's usually from a classroom where I'm doing something with my life... You are doing something with your life as you post on a messageboard during class? I also didn't realize you were in class at 1 or 2 in the morning as I have seen many of your posts occur after midnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I didn't realize you were in class at 1 or 2 in the morning. I've seen a lot of posts from you after midnight. Common sense not your strong suit? Of course 100% of my posts aren't from a classroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Common sense not your strong suit? Of course 100% of my posts aren't from a classroom. You said you usually post from a classroom and common sense is something you shouldn't comment on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor99 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 If you are so smart why are you a late 30's old timer with nothing better to do than to post on a message board all day? Pathetic. At least when i post it's usually from a classroom where I'm doing something with my life... Doing something? Like not learning? Isn't that what you're supposed to be in class for? I'm sure mommy and daddy are thrilled that you're throwing their money away. They are your personal Steinbrenner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 BTW when people publish these studies they don't do it for free. They need to make a living too. The one i'm refering to is in this book. http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Between-Numbers-Prospectus-Experts/dp/0465005969 Not that you would ever want to learn anything more than what your 1930's baseball IQ tells you. Would you care to elaborate, or just show pictures of pretty books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_blood Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 If you are so smart why are you a late 30's old timer with nothing better to do than to post on a message board all day? Pathetic. At least when i post it's usually from a classroom where I'm doing something with my life... Ahh, damaged Yankee ego... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Hmmmmm.....Loook what I found in Baseball Prospectus, Mike's bible.LOL One of the great remaining unknowns in sabermetrics is the true defensive impact of the catcher. What few commonly available stats we do have to deal with peripheral defensive responsibilities like passed balls and throwing out basestealers. Yet most knowledgeable observers believe that the aspect of the catcher's job that has the most impact is his game-calling, that is, his ability to work with pitchers and help them throw more effectively. The cumulative effect of game-calling is potentially huge. For example, a catcher who catches 130 games a year, and who may reduce the ERA's of his pitchers by just a quarter of a run (0.25) is worth 32.5 runs defensively -- a figure that ranks up there with the top shortstops and outfielders in the league. Yet there have been no satisfyingly thorough attempts to quantify this presumably crucial aspect of run prevention. Mike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Hmmmmm.....Loook what I found in Baseball Prospectus, Mike's bible.LOL One of the great remaining unknowns in sabermetrics is the true defensive impact of the catcher. What few commonly available stats we do have to deal with peripheral defensive responsibilities like passed balls and throwing out basestealers. Yet most knowledgeable observers believe that the aspect of the catcher's job that has the most impact is his game-calling, that is, his ability to work with pitchers and help them throw more effectively. The cumulative effect of game-calling is potentially huge. For example, a catcher who catches 130 games a year, and who may reduce the ERA's of his pitchers by just a quarter of a run (0.25) is worth 32.5 runs defensively -- a figure that ranks up there with the top shortstops and outfielders in the league. Yet there have been no satisfyingly thorough attempts to quantify this presumably crucial aspect of run prevention. Mike? Well done! I can't wait to read mikes spin on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I got to agree that mike's wrong on this one. Its common sense that what pitches are thrown will affect how an at bat goes. Logically, some catchers are going to be better at calling games than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I got to agree that mike's wrong on this one. Its common sense that what pitches are thrown will affect how an at bat goes. Logically, some catchers are going to be better at calling games than others. There are no tangible stats to back up the argument so obviously catchers are useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Hmmmmm.....Loook what I found in Baseball Prospectus, Mike's bible.LOL One of the great remaining unknowns in sabermetrics is the true defensive impact of the catcher. What few commonly available stats we do have to deal with peripheral defensive responsibilities like passed balls and throwing out basestealers. Yet most knowledgeable observers believe that the aspect of the catcher's job that has the most impact is his game-calling, that is, his ability to work with pitchers and help them throw more effectively. The cumulative effect of game-calling is potentially huge. For example, a catcher who catches 130 games a year, and who may reduce the ERA's of his pitchers by just a quarter of a run (0.25) is worth 32.5 runs defensively -- a figure that ranks up there with the top shortstops and outfielders in the league. Yet there have been no satisfyingly thorough attempts to quantify this presumably crucial aspect of run prevention. Mike? Yes unknown IE there is no proof that such a skill exists. I never said anything other than that. I never claimed to know the final word. You just put those words in my mouth as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Yes unknown IE there is no proof that such a skill exists. I never said anything other than that. I never claimed to know the final word. You just put those words in my mouth as usual. Unknonwn in that you can't put a number to it. I repeat from the article "Yet most knowledgeable baseball observers believe the aspect of the catcher's job that has the most imapct is the game calling" Hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Unknonwn in that you can't put a number to it. I repeat from the article "Yet most knowledgeable baseball observers believe the aspect of the catcher's job that has the most imapct is the game calling" Hmmmm BP then goes on to show that there is no proof that such a skill exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Yes unknown IE there is no proof that such a skill exists. I never said anything other than that. I never claimed to know the final word. You just put those words in my mouth as usual. There is proof that such a skill exists. It's called pitchers saying that certain catchers know what pitches should be thrown. I lean toward players comments more than statistical analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 BP then goes on to show that there is no proof that such a skill exists. Please show us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Please show us Like I said. It's in that book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Like I said. It's in that book. Even if it is in the book, what makes them more right than others? It is just one set of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Like I said. It's in that book. Let me get this right. You will take the opinion of a book over actual major league pitchers. That sums up why none of us on this board take you seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Even if it is in the book, what makes them more right than others? It is just one set of opinion. It's a set of opinion based on mountains of data, not 1930's baseball wives tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Let me get this right. You will take the opinion of a book over actual major league pitchers. That sums up why none of us on this board take you seriously. I will take the opinion of people who do extensive research on this for a living over one guys opinion even if they are a major leaguer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 I will take the opinion of people who do extensive research on this for a living over one guys opinion even if they are a major leaguer. You are a fraud, plain and true. Even when faced with evidence that you are wrong, you still deny, deny, deny. Really a fraud, with no credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 I will take the opinion of people who do extensive research on this for a living over one guys opinion even if they are a major leaguer. Are you kidding me? You will take the side of some number cruncher over guys that actually play the game? Unreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 You are a fraud, plain and true. Even when faced with evidence that you are wrong, you still deny, deny, deny. Really a fraud, with no credibility. You are an old man who is set in his ways and who is threatened by anyone who is trying to gain more knowledge about a subject than the wives tales you have relied on in your narrow experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Are you kidding me? You will take the side of some number cruncher over guys that actually play the game? Unreal. That amount of data takes into account MUCH more than the narrow experience of one player. I'm sure there are players who have different opinions on all kinds of different subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 You are an old man who is set in his ways and who is threatened by anyone who is trying to gain more knowledge about a subject than the wives tales you have relied on in your narrow experience. There were experts that believed the world was flat once, also. You have yet to prove anything on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 I don't know how I put myself in the position of trying to defend sabermetrics against idiots. I don't really feel like doing this anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 You are an old man who is set in his ways and who is threatened by anyone who is trying to gain more knowledge about a subject than the wives tales you have relied on in your narrow experience. There you go again with your, "I have more knowledge about baseball" because I bring up stats crap. Do you actually watch the games or is your head firmly placed in Bill James' arse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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