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All time greatest pitchers


Jet Moses

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I don't get it. Baseball has been desegregated since 1948, and yet, there's like 2 black pitchers in the top 100.

Some baseball expert on this board told me that Ruth should get an asterisk like Bonds 'cos he didn't face that awesome Negro league pitching. It's ironic 'cos the top ten all time winning pitchers - with the exception of Clemens and Maddux- all pitched during the segregated era. Gee, how do I reconcile my political correctness brainwashing with these facts?

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=mlb&statType=2&sortByStat=W&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame=0

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I don't get it. Baseball has been desegregated since 1948, and yet, there's like 2 black pitchers in the top 100.

Some baseball expert on this board told me that Ruth should get an asterisk like Bonds 'cos he didn't face that awesome Negro league pitching. It's ironic 'cos the top ten all time winning pitchers - with the exception of Clemens and Maddux- all pitched during the segregated era. Gee, how do I reconcile my political correctness brainwashing with these facts?

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=mlb&statType=2&sortByStat=W&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame=0

Can you just stop now please, this isn't the place for racial topics, can we please put away that conversation and move ahead.

Please.

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We're discussing historical facts. Why is everybody so uncomfortable with that? Seriously, lets have a civil conversation without name calling.

I'll start!

Somebody told me that Satchel Paige was "better than 3/4 of MLB pitchers" at the time he was pitching in the Negro leagues. That very well may be true, but there is no way to confirm or deny that.

But what we can look at, is all of the black pitchers that were able to play in MLB since 1948.

Is it fair for me to draw the conclusion that if there are only 2 or 3 black pitchers in the top 100, that perhaps there would have been about the same percentage prior to 1948?

Based on this information alone I can surmise that Babe Ruth still would have hit 714 HR's if MLB had been desegregated during his era.

Put the political correctness away and lets have a conversation with no agendas.

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i have some stats of ruth vs negro league pitchers if your interested. from the small sample of games he played against htem in barnstorming games, he actually hit better than his MLB rates. but ofcourse thats 8000+ atbats so it doesnt mean too much.

believe it or not, negro league ballplay was at best semi-pro with it's stars scattered around

buck o'neil admitted that most negro league teams had 2-3 MLB callibor position players and 1-2 MLB calibor pitchers

not stars, but just regular guys.

then you got your Josh Gibsons, Pop Lloyds, Oscar Charlestons, Buck Leonard, Turkey Stearns, and guys like Smokey Joe Williams (best negro league pitcher), Satchel Paige, Bullet JOe Rogan and Jose Mendez, who could play with any one of any race.

I read a Buck interview with a story of Babe Ruth in his late 30's/early 40's hit a home run off of Satchel Paige in an exhibition game, and it went some 500 feet and Paige sent kids to go retrive it so he could ask Ruth to autograph it.

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My point was that you can put an asterick on just about any era, not that Babe Ruth would have only hit 415 home runs if he had black guys pitching to him. I don't know how many he would have hit. Maybe less, maybe more, maybe the same. That wasn't the point.

I once read an article that said Willie Mays used to pop amphetamines before games. A lot of players in that era did. So, there's your asterick for Hank Aaron's era.

Babe Ruth* - didn't play against blacks

Barry Bonds* - abused steroids

Hank Aaron* - was possibly ****ing wired out of his mind

Astericks for everyone!

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Hey this is a serious question. This topic will most likely get locked because someone is going to take it too far. But -- when the Negro Leagues existed, were African American players eligible to play in any other sport?

I don't think they were other than maybe boxing.

What is my point? If you were African American and an athlete you most likely played in the Negro League. So the talent pool was pretty good. Today there are more options available for everyone so on a compartive basis the talent level is not as good.

Not sure if I explained that properly. Also not sure if my basis is 100% accurate.

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I don't the other sports were as segregated as baseball was.

You have to realize also that the NBA, and the NFL really didn't emerge into prominance until the 40's and 50's.

Let's also remember that Jackie Robinson not only broke the color barrier for the blacks but every non-white pitcher. It also paved the way for the guys like

Dennis Martinez

Juan Marichal

Luis Tiant

Vida Blue

Pedro Martinez.

who are the list that Moses is using right now.

Baseball has had so many different eras. You might not see another guy win 300 games. Why ? Because pitchers used to finish what they started and pitched more frequently. Now the arms are babied, relief specialists are used now more than ever.

I just wouldn't look at a pitchers amount of wins and determine him as an all time great. There are alot of good pitchers on this list too that will NEVER see the HOF.

Just my 2 cents.

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believe it or not, negro league ballplay was at best semi-pro with it's stars scattered around

buck o'neil admitted that most negro league teams had 2-3 MLB callibor position players and 1-2 MLB calibor pitchers

not stars, but just regular guys.

Nice post and I can see you make comments from an educated perspective, not an ignorant, knee-jerk PC emotional one.

Regarding the Negro baseball league, there were ALOT of managers, players, and owners of those teams that wanted to maintain the status quo. They knew it was all over for them once Jackie Robinson broke precedent. Guys like Branch Rickey -who started the minor league farm system- cherry picked all the best players from the Negro League. It was grand larceny.

I think it has more to do with people just making an observation than worrying about "political correctness" or whatever. I hardly think it's something to get all pissed about.

It's all about PC. A certain someone made a statement "Ruth should get an asterisk because he didn't bat against black pitchers" and nobody will challenge it- even though it's an ignorant statement -out of fear.

I hate Moonbats and thats why I get pissed when they get sassy with me. PC moonbats experience extreme cognitive dissonance, and when their propaganda and PC dogma is challenged by facts, they can't make a reasonable or logical rebuttal, so they personally attack and demean you as if that will be enough to compromise your legitimate points. I made a good point, posed legitimate questions, and was replied to with evasive non-answers, obfuscation, and name calling.

I don't the other sports were as segregated as baseball was.

You have to realize also that the NBA, and the NFL really didn't emerge into prominence until the 40's and 50's.

Let's also remember that Jackie Robinson not only broke the color barrier for the blacks but every non-white pitcher. It also paved the way for the guys like

Dennis Martinez

Juan Marichal

Luis Tiant

Vida Blue

Pedro Martinez.

who are the list that Moses is using right now.

Baseball has had so many different eras. You might not see another guy win 300 games. Why ? Because pitchers used to finish what they started and pitched more frequently. Now the arms are babied, relief specialists are used now more than ever.

I just wouldn't look at a pitchers amount of wins and determine him as an all time great. There are alot of good pitchers on this list too that will NEVER see the HOF.

Just my 2 cents.

Solid points all around. I liked the one about Sandy Koufax-

If you look at the other pitcher records, not just wins and losses, you will see that they are dominated by white pitchers as well. Based on that data, I think we can all make a safe assumption that Ruth's HR records legitimacy in no way shape or form is compromised by the fact that he didn't bat against non-white pitchers.

I realize its politically incorrect to point out the achievements of white people without somehow attributing it to the exploitation and oppression of People Of Color

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Just to throw in another 2 cents about this

That link that Moses has is based on wins. Sandy Koufax won 165 games and isn't on that list. So what does that say about the list ?

That Sandy Koufax had a couple of phenomenal years and is generally overrated?

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It's all about PC. A certain someone made a statement "Ruth should get an asterisk because he didn't bat against black pitchers" and nobody will challenge it- even though it's an ignorant statement -out of fear.

I hate Moonbats and thats why I get pissed when they get sassy with me. PC moonbats experience extreme cognitive dissonance, and when their propaganda and PC dogma is challenged by facts, they can't make a reasonable or logical rebuttal, so they personally attack and demean you as if that will be enough to compromise your legitimate points. I made a good point, posed legitimate questions, and was replied to with evasive non-answers, obfuscation, and name calling.

I realize its politically incorrect to point out the achievements of white people without somehow attributing it to the exploitation and oppression of People Of Color

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From what I've seen of Troll he hardly seems like a "PC moonbat" or whatever the code word is these days, he was just bringing up a point. I never said I agreed with it, and I don't, FWIW.

Is it possible that people were disagreeing with you just because they're disagreeing with you? It's pretty obvious in this thread that people are replying with serious answers, and I have no idea who is name-calling or obfuscating.

I liked your little rant about no one in particular though.

I just think Moses is suffereing from political debate withdrawl. :P

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From what I've seen of Troll he hardly seems like a "PC moonbat" or whatever the code word is these days, he was just bringing up a point. I never said I agreed with it, and I don't, FWIW.

Is it possible that people were disagreeing with you just because they're disagreeing with you? It's pretty obvious in this thread that people are replying with serious answers, and I have no idea who is name-calling or obfuscating.

I liked your little rant about no one in particular though.

I was talking about the thread that got locked, but whatever. Concerning that thread-

I asked Troll a very simple question "What does Bonds doing steroids have to do with Ruth not batting against non-white pitchers", and he couldn't answer it, because if you actually THINK about it, there is no relationship there. Troll took a very unpopular stance in defending Bonds. That was his prerogative. But in defending the indefensible he tried to rationalize Bonds doing steroids by suggesting Ruth should get an asterisk not having to hit against Black pitchers.

What does that have to do with PC: because he used a "sensitive" topic that he knew nobody (except me :)) would touch. He also knew that if somebody did challenge his assumption, other PC douche bags would pile on. That's why that thread got locked, because certain people cant handle the truth. And another thing, don't be coming at me talking all that kanye west punk*ss BS "young'un". I'll tell you straight from jump street, if you want to act like a fatherless jackass, I'll treat you like one.

Look, if the guy wants to cheer Bonds, fine. But don't give us this condescending crap about the media driving our emotions, and don't go making disparaging blanket statements about the careers of other players who have absolutely nothing to do with Bonds doing steroids.

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I was talking about the thread that got locked, but whatever. Concerning that thread-

I asked Troll a very simple question "What does Bonds doing steroids have to do with Ruth not batting against non-white pitchers", and he couldn't answer it, because if you actually THINK about it, there is no relationship there. Troll took a very unpopular stance in defending Bonds. That was his prerogative. But in defending the indefensible he tried to rationalize Bonds doing steroids by suggesting Ruth should get an asterisk not having to hit against Black pitchers.

What does that have to do with PC: because he used a "sensitive" topic that he knew nobody (except me :)) would touch. He also knew that if somebody did challenge his assumption, other PC douche bags would pile on. That's why that thread got locked, because certain people cant handle the truth. And another thing, don't be coming at me talking all that kanye west punk*ss BS "young'un". I'll tell you straight from jump street, if you want to act like a fatherless jackass, I'll treat you like one.

Look, if the guy wants to cheer Bonds, fine. But don't give us this condescending crap about the media driving our emotions, and don't go making disparaging blanket statements about the careers of other players who have absolutely nothing to do with Bonds doing steroids.

I don't even know what that means.

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I was talking about the thread that got locked, but whatever. Concerning that thread-

I asked Troll a very simple question "What does Bonds doing steroids have to do with Ruth not batting against non-white pitchers", and he couldn't answer it, because if you actually THINK about it, there is no relationship there. Troll took a very unpopular stance in defending Bonds. That was his prerogative. But in defending the indefensible he tried to rationalize Bonds doing steroids by suggesting Ruth should get an asterisk not having to hit against Black pitchers.

What does that have to do with PC: because he used a "sensitive" topic that he knew nobody (except me :)) would touch. He also knew that if somebody did challenge his assumption, other PC douche bags would pile on. That's why that thread got locked, because certain people cant handle the truth. And another thing, don't be coming at me talking all that kanye west punk*ss BS "young'un". I'll tell you straight from jump street, if you want to act like a fatherless jackass, I'll treat you like one.

Look, if the guy wants to cheer Bonds, fine. But don't give us this condescending crap about the media driving our emotions, and don't go making disparaging blanket statements about the careers of other players who have absolutely nothing to do with Bonds doing steroids.

No, Moses, I answered your question in the locked thread and you were either a.)too dumb to understand it, or b.)too excited about your forthcoming opportunity to turn the JN baseball forum into the JI political forum that you just ignored it.

I'm JN's patron saint of political correctness. That is hilarious. Funny how you didn't seem to agree with that whenever I was arguing that the Confederate flag has a right to be flown a few months ago. Back then, I guess I was a patron saint for sticking it to those PC, Kanye West lovin' douche-bags in your eyes. And, now, I am one of them. For shame, for shame. Why don't you take your Rush Limbaugh act back to JI where it came from?

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No, Moses, I answered your question in the locked thread and you were either a.)too dumb to understand it, or b.)too excited about your forthcoming opportunity to turn the JN baseball forum into the JI political forum that you just ignored it.

Why don't you take your Rush Limbaugh act back to JI where it came from?

Uh, no moron, you're the one who turned the JN baseball forum into the JI political forum when, in your quest to honor your beloved hero Barry Bonds, you made an analogy that only a complete imbecile would make by suggesting Babe Ruth should get an asterisk if beloved Barry deserves one.

Sometimes I wonder what kind of imbeciles sat on that jury that acquitted OJ.

You give me a pretty good idea.

Go back to JI? No, I'll stay right here and make your life suck. A*shole.

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