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Seymour absent from camp


RichardSeymour

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Good, no great point 13.

Nothing lasts forever, but why waste time fretting over this ending. Enjoy the ride. Oh, I know there will be a day in my future when the Patriots are drafting near the top if not the top of the draft in my lifetime, but that day is not now.

The points Jets' fans bring up on the Patriots' demise are all valid. Until prooven otherwise, the Patriots have shown the ability overcome the loss of players (FA defection or injury) and the loss of coaches (QB Coach Rhebein) a few years ago.

My point is this, the quote of your is good, but seeing all the championship DVDs, mainly the Three Games to Glory I, II and III, I do not see the attitudes slipping. Could they? Of course, there have been a players that have lost the desire (Randall-Robinson), looked for more money (Woody, MIlloy, Law), but the core is still there and Belichick and Pioli have shown a knack for getting the right player. Perfec choices? No, but damm good on most.

Again, I am going to enjoy the ride.

and you should, just as we will when our time FINALLY arrives

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Listen - anything could happen. Pats could implode and go 8-8, the Jets could have Chad for an entire season - I mean, really, who knows? One thing I do know - Seymour isn't sitting out for an entire season.....and if a contract isn't redone, he'll be gone after this season. I have absolutely no problem with that. As a peon, I signed the offer letter that was given me. Six months later, I could go and say "hey, I think I'm worth more than my salary - how 'bout giving me a raise?" The Boss says "no." My recourse? Suck it up and hope for a good bonus and merit raise or look for other employment.

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here's the difference Garb - Peons are replaceable. Guys like Richard Seymour aren't. The only place to get top quality DT/DE talent is in the top 15 slots of the draft. Yeah every so often a Kris Jenkins makes it to the high second round but more often than not if you want an impact DL you need to take him early. It's not a coincedence that the Pats defense became amazing right around the time Seymour stepped it up. Talk about a guy who has outperformed his deal, Seymour is a 3x pro bowler with 2 years left on his rookie deal. If the Pats don't renegotiate/extend this player they are CLEARLY in the wrong.

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here's the difference Garb - Peons are replaceable. Guys like Richard Seymour aren't.

Really bit?

How did Randall Gay and Hank Poteat do filling in for Ty Law last year?

Remember the Jet fans mantra:

"It's not the players, it's the system". :wink:

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I don't blame RS for wanting a new deal - but the contract is what the contract is. He put his sig on it, he has to honor it. Maybe being raised in a blue-color environment has me somewhat unsympathic to the "plight" of a top DE millionaire. That said, I agree that RS DESERVES the cake and I have no doubt the Pats will try to get something done - although he WILL NOT be the top paid player at his position, or the second highest and I suspect he won't be the third. It's not how the Pats operate and it's been working so far.

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here's the difference Garb - Peons are replaceable. Guys like Richard Seymour aren't. The only place to get top quality DT/DE talent is in the top 15 slots of the draft. Yeah every so often a Kris Jenkins makes it to the high second round but more often than not if you want an impact DL you need to take him early. It's not a coincedence that the Pats defense became amazing right around the time Seymour stepped it up. Talk about a guy who has outperformed his deal, Seymour is a 3x pro bowler with 2 years left on his rookie deal. If the Pats don't renegotiate/extend this player they are CLEARLY in the wrong.

Uh, good thing for us we have two others--- #13 pick Ty Warren who really came into his own last year and #21 pick (top 15 any other year and arguably shoulda been that year) Vince Wilfork.

We're not hurting for impact DL.

You couldn't replace Seymour---- IMO he's a once in a decade caliber talent, a true franchise caliber DT type. A guy who is already halfway to Canton at the age of 26.

However the Pats are in a position to cushion the blow if so, since they are STACKED at DL.

That said, Seymour is going NOWHERE before 2007.

It's not a coincedence that the Pats defense became amazing right around the time Seymour stepped it up.

This I agree with.

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Really bit?

How did Randall Gay and Hank Poteat do filling in for Ty Law last year?

REALLY, Tex. Seymour is a DL stud in his prime, Law is an over the hill DB - there is NO comparison. In general DL are far more important than DB as the good play of the front 7 can cover up deficiencies in the DB corp. Never is the opposite true.

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Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork can not make up the void left by Seymour's absence. While decent, solid players (Warren having the chance to be very good, IMO), Seymour makes that entire front seven work. There is no replacing that.

IMO, you Pats fans are highly underestimating what he does for you in terms of pushing the pocket and taking up space. He might bethe most important, most irreplaceable player on your entire team.

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[quote name='"RichardSeymourUh, good thing for us we have two others--- #13 pick Ty Warren who really came into his own last year and #21 pick (top 15 any other year and arguably shoulda been that year) Vince Wilfork.

[/quote']

also should be noted that just because a player is drafted high doesn't guaruntee he is an impact player. HIgh slots are where you find these guys but that doesn't mean it's a slam dunk. Warren and Wilfork are good starters with upside but as of this writing, NOT impact players.

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REALLY, Tex. Seymour is a DL stud in his prime, Law is an over the hill DB - there is NO comparison.

Come on bit, it least keep things in perspective.

Prior to getting injured last year, Ty Law was still considered to be a top 3 CB in the NFL.

He was replaced by Gay and Poteat last season.

Richard Seymour is a top 3 DL.

How can you say "there is no comparison"?

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Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork can not make up the void left by Seymour's absence. While decent, solid players (Warren having the chance to be very good, IMO), Seymour makes that entire front seven work. There is no replacing that.

IMO, you Pats fans are highly underestimating what he does for you in terms of pushing the pocket and taking up space. He might bethe most important, most irreplaceable player on your entire team.

OK, here's the real deal on Seymour.

TS, you make a great point about Seymour "pushing the pocket and taking up space". But I'll take that one step further, I don't think there is a better DL in the NFL that plays the run and pass EQUALLY as well as Seymour. You got your great pass rushers (Freeney, Abe, etc.) and then you have guys who are great playing the run.

Seymour's high value to the Pats is he does both so well.

Look, losing him would be a huge blow (I agree with bit, #2 behind Brady) but the Pats can not (cap space) or will not (not paying mega bucks for one player) give him the long-term contract that he is looking for.

RS (JN's RS) said it best. The Pats are grooming both Warren and Wilfork to eventually replace him. Will either of them play at the same level of Richard Seymour? Hell no. But what the Pats are trying to do is minimize a loss of a player with the least downside as possible.

I'd hate to see him go, but it wouldn't be the end of the world for the Pats defense.

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What do you mean "lose" him? Do you all think he's going to sit out the season? C'mon..... :roll: Just you all wait 'till he gets his third ring at the party at the Krafts this coming week. He;ll be there. He'll be all smiles. He'll be ready to buckle on the chin-strap. Trust me on this one.

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bit, would Bryan Thomas be a good example? :wink:

i have the same opinion of BT as I do of Warren. Starter quality players with upside - not true "impact" players.

For the purposes of this conversation an impact player is someone the opposing OC has to gameplan against.

Yes Tex Law was a top 3 CB - but as a player his injury history and general inconsistancy makes him less valuable as Seymour who is arguably on a HOF track. Also it should be noted i stand by my original statement the play of a top DL can cover up the mistakes of a CB, the opposite is rarely true.

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What do you mean "lose" him? Do you all think he's going to sit out the season? C'mon..... :roll: Just you all wait 'till he gets his third ring at the party at the Krafts this coming week. He;ll be there. He'll be all smiles. He'll be ready to buckle on the chin-strap. Trust me on this one.

as a young 3x pro bowler, Seymour has nothing to gain by playing this year. That's the bottom line. He can sit out until week 10, show up then which will advance his contract another year, do the same next year and the year after that get a second contract with a $15-20 mil bonus, more than making up for the 2.5 in salary he was due to make over two years playing under his rookie deal.

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Also it should be noted i stand by my original statement the play of a top DL can cover up the mistakes of a CB, the opposite is rarely true.

Yes Tex Law was a top 3 CB - but as a player his injury history

I agree with your first comment 100%. That is a very good point.

Ty Law's injury history?????????

Prior to breaking his foot last year, Ty Law only missed 9 games over the previous 9 seasons.

That's exactly the same number of games PennyBoyWonder has missed the last two seasons. :wink:

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as a young 3x pro bowler, Seymour has nothing to gain by playing this year. That's the bottom line. He can sit out until week 10, show up then which will advance his contract another year, do the same next year and the year after that get a second contract with a $15-20 mil bonus, more than making up for the 2.5 in salary he was due to make over two years playing under his rookie deal.

At the most, this is a "statement" move - stating "I want a new contract." He's been a Foxboro all season working out - as recently as last week from local reports. I know he won't miss the ring ceremony and - call me nuts - but from what I've seen and heard - he's not the hold out type....and two years? No way.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2081365

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Seymour could want new contract

By Len Pasquarelli

ESPN.com

In a move that rippled the calm waters that typically have followed a New England Patriots post-Super Bowl offseason, defensive tackle Richard Seymour was not present Thursday for the start of the team's lone mandatory mini-camp.

The unexcused absence, with sources indicating to ESPN.com that Seymour is likely to boycott the entire three-day session, is believed to be contract related.

Reached by phone, agent Eugene Parker said that neither he nor Seymour will comment on his client's absence or the reason for it.

Head coach Bill Belichick confirmed only that the Pats' star defensive lineman was not excused from the mini-camp.

"He's under contract and he's not here, and that's all I really have to say about it," Belichick said. "Anything else, you'd have to ask Richard about."

Because Seymour is under contract, he can be fined for missing the mandatory mini-camp.

While there have been rumors that Seymour might skip the mini-camp, his absence came as mildly surprising because the four-year veteran has been present for much of the club's offseason conditioning program and also participated in several charitable events. Patriots officials apparently were not apprised in advance that Seymour would not be present.

Seymour, 25, has two seasons remaining on the original contract that he signed in 2001 as a first-round draft choice. According to NFL Players Association documents, he is due base salaries of $2.87 million for 2005 and $1.22 million for 2006.

Like most NFL teams, the Patriots do not renegotiate or extend contracts with more than one year remaining on them, and it is presumptuous at this point to assume that Parker and Seymour have sought to rework the deal. New England did recently, however, extend the contract of quarterback Tom Brady, which had two seasons remaining.

The sixth player chosen overall in 2001, Seymour has appeared in the Pro Bowl in three of four seasons. The former University of Georgia star, whose original contract was not negotiated by Parker, is regarded as one of the NFL's premier defensive linemen. Seymour is versatile enough to play end in the 3-4 and to move inside to tackle on those occasions when New England plays a four-man front.

With training camp still about seven weeks off, it would be premature to speculate whether Seymour will report on time, and overstatement to suggest that his absence from this week's mini-camp is a major distraction. But the Patriots generally have very few offseason glitches compared to other franchises, especially those who are coming off championship seasons, and the Seymour absence is an unusual occurrence for the team.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior NFL writer for ESPN.com. To check out Len's chat archive, click here .

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Good, no great point 13.

Nothing lasts forever, but why waste time fretting over this ending. Enjoy the ride. Oh, I know there will be a day in my future when the Patriots are drafting near the top if not the top of the draft in my lifetime, but that day is not now.

The points Jets' fans bring up on the Patriots' demise are all valid. Until prooven otherwise, the Patriots have shown the ability overcome the loss of players (FA defection or injury) and the loss of coaches (QB Coach Rhebein) a few years ago.

My point is this, the quote of your is good, but seeing all the championship DVDs, mainly the Three Games to Glory I, II and III, I do not see the attitudes slipping. Could they? Of course, there have been a players that have lost the desire (Randall-Robinson), looked for more money (Woody, MIlloy, Law), but the core is still there and Belichick and Pioli have shown a knack for getting the right player. Perfec choices? No, but damm good on most.

Again, I am going to enjoy the ride.

Yankee fans used to talk this way. :wink:

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Hey RS, if your namesake does indeed hold out or get traded to a rival team, say Miami, will you change your screen name? just curious

Seymour is a 3 time pro-bowler and 2 time all-pro. He is a probable future HoFer.

I'm fine with this name, whatever happens he's been a huge part of Patriots history.

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Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork can not make up the void left by Seymour's absence. While decent, solid players (Warren having the chance to be very good, IMO), Seymour makes that entire front seven work. There is no replacing that.

IMO, you Pats fans are highly underestimating what he does for you in terms of pushing the pocket and taking up space. He might bethe most important, most irreplaceable player on your entire team.

Brady.

Circa late 2001, 2002, and early 2003 I would have agreed with you. At some point in 2003 I came to realize that Brady had become more important.

Personally there are a LOT of guys I'd actually be more worried about losing:

Brady

Dillon

Branch

Givens

Harrison

Wilson

Seymour is better than any of 'em except Brady, but yes our DL depth IS that good, and our WR, S, and RB depth is not something I want to test.

Compare it to the Jets last year say--- Martin might be one of the very best players on the team but you would have rather seen him go down than Mawae, Ellis, Vilma, or Pennington because of the depth behind him at the time.

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Richard Seymour is a great player, and is a big time overachiever because he plays in the perfect system. I don't think he'd be half the player on 75% of the other teams in this league except for teams that run the 3-4 and switch to 4-3 off and on.

oh and to richardseymour

You have to be kidding me? deion branch? DAVID GIVENS!?!?, LOL.

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Bit, you're a tad wet on this one. Warren WAS an impact player down the stretch last year. I'm of the opinion that he was more often than not our better DE in the second half of the season.

Read that sentence again.

Do NOT sleep on Ty Warren. That would be a mistake. If he maintains the level of play he was showing down the stretch last year or improves on it....

Meanwhile Wilfork's curve was slower, but he flashed, and he showed a heck of a lot more than Robertson did his rookie year. There's a lot of reason for excitement about him.

and by god, don't, don't, DON'T underestimate Jarvis Green--- he can't do what Seymour does as a 3-down lineman, but he's very quick, in the superbowl (I broke down the SB recently, watching every play several times and once at 1/8th speed) he was moving like a linebacker and leapt out at you on a LOT of plays.

Green can be VERY good as well.

The Pats can line up Green--Wilfork--Warren and I think there's a good chance that's a top 10 DL in the league on a per man basis, seriously--- this is without placing ANY expectations on project Marquise Hill.

Keep in mind that Seymour is going NOWHERE.... him holding out if it continues might mean he plays a bit rustier, but he's two years from FA and makes 2.8 mil in new money this year--- he has no leverage for a in-season holdout and incentive to play.

Belichick might trade Seymour after 2006 or even in 2005 if it becomes crystal clear things are going to get messy, but it is about as certain as it gets that he'll be suiting up in a Pats uni on sundays and attacking offensive linemen.

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Richard Seymour is a great player, and is a big time overachiever because he plays in the perfect system. I don't think he'd be half the player on 75% of the other teams in this league except for teams that run the 3-4 and switch to 4-3 off and on.

barton, name me one other DLineman that plays the run and rushes the QB as well as Seymour?

I'll give you a hint, there aren't any.

All 32 teams would love to have him and he would be the exact same player in a 4-3 as he has been in a 3-4.

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RS -

I wish I had your optimism. IMHO Semour is gone after the season.

The rumors have always been he wants to be compensated like the best DL, deservedly so, in the league, but we all know that is not going to happen.

I think Warren, Wilfork, Hill and Bailey are all signs Belichick knew RS would not settle for a New England discount.

After 2005, he is traded for a first round pick.

EB - Branch is a wee bit unhearlded. Back-to-back 10 reception Superbowls. :shock: He is a bit irreplaceable. IMHO more so then Givens.

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Richard Seymour is a great player, and is a big time overachiever because he plays in the perfect system. I don't think he'd be half the player on 75% of the other teams in this league except for teams that run the 3-4 and switch to 4-3 off and on.

Except for that pro-bowl year in 2002 playing a fulltime 4-3....

You have to be kidding me? deion branch? DAVID GIVENS!?!?, LOL.

Yeah, look who's behind them.... David Terrell.... Bethel Johnson.

Branch and Givens are both quality 1.5 type receivers. Neither is a true #1 (some would argue Branch is) in my book, but both are plenty good.

The guys behind them are cross-your-fingers-and-pray types at this point.

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The Pats can line up Green--Wilfork--Warren and I think there's a good chance that's a top 10 DL in the league on a per man basis, seriously---

Give me a break you friggin chump

Better tan those 3

Carolina

Jax

Jets

SD

Tenn

Indy

Dallas

Phl

Minn

Bears

TB

ATL

And there is more

Those guys work well in Crennels scheme....otherwise, man for man.....below average

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Except for that pro-bowl year in 2002 playing a fulltime 4-3....

what a great year? Pro Bowl DT who had 5.5 sacks, and 56 tackles. Pretty good sack total, overall good numbers but not pro bowl worthy. He's a very good player, but I don't understand the fascination people have with this guy. He's not a player in the echelon of the Freeneys, Peppers, Sapps (once was), or even a player at the level of Kris Jenkins and John Abraham. Seymours a GREAT player in the patriots system, but just a very good player overall imho.

You have to be kidding me? deion branch? DAVID GIVENS!?!?, LOL.

Yeah, look who's behind them.... David Terrell.... Bethel Johnson.

Branch and Givens are both quality 1.5 type receivers. Neither is a true #1 (some would argue Branch is) in my book, but both are plenty good.

The guys behind them are cross-your-fingers-and-pray types at this point.

David Givens? Guys never even had a 900 yard season or a season with more than 5 TDs and over 600 yards in the same year. He's not even CLOSE to being a "1.5" type reciever. He's a borderline #2 at best puhleeze.

Deion Branch, while he had a great superbowl performance is a borderline #2 wide reciever as well. Never had a 900+ yard season, NEVER EVEN CAUGHT MORE THAN 4 TOUCHDOWNS IN A SINGLE SEASON. This is a guy who'd be lucky to get 600 yards in a season, decent wide reciever.

I know what you're saying about the depth at WR past branch and givens very thin, but Seymour is a great player in the patsys scheme, he makes the rest of those JAGs look way better than they really are. Even personal people around the NFL have said that Jarvis Green is crap, it was in an espn.com article not too long ago, they didn't say crap, but when talking about Green, they were like "please, he's a system player, only in new england yada yada"

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