Is this Guy For Real? Herm a "Top Ten Coach"?

[Sperm Edwards]

To sun up the pro-Herm argument:

He's a good coach because:

1) He "hired" Dinger and Donnie, but had no part in the hiring of Cottrell and Hackett. Supposedly.

2) Because he's not a bad coach, per se. Herm is a good coach because Rich Kotite was a bad coach. And Belichick quit.

3) Because he made the playoffs in 3 out of 4 years in spite of be anchored down by Hackett.

4) Because Parcells makes clock management mistakes too, after all.

5) Because it's unfair to compare Herm to coaches that win Super Bowls.

6) Because he was saddled with bad talent around him. Like Damien Robinson and Steve White and Mo Lewis.

7) Since he was so grossly inexperienced, any season with >8 wins is as successful as a superbowl.

8 ) The players love him and want to play for him (except his best friend b/c that's a bad example).

9) He won more games (10) taking over for Groh's 9-7 team than Parcells did (9) when he took over for Kotite's 1-15 team.

10) He's as good as any other coach who hasn't won a superbowl, because Herm bashers say that anything other than the superbowl is a failure & there are 31 failures every year.

[Sperm Edwards]

damn, 80, you beat me to #8.

[Jetsfan80]

damn, 80, you beat me to #8.

All Herm bashers think alike.

[Kentucky Jet]

A thorough review of the RAVEN game will dispell the THEORY that HERM is a MASTERBATATOR err master Motivator! Even CHAd told him on the sidelines after the JORDAN INT that a pep talk would help at half time. The Masterbator declined. Teams with master motivators do not come out FLAT as the JETSA did after a turnover. Great Hcs know how to motivate their team to forget thge problem and move on. HERM failed to do that. Secondly, ONE week after SCHOTTENHEIMER lost to the JETS due to a lack of intestinal fortitude in the playoffs, HERM copied his style and lost to the STEELERS! The AFc has been depleted for a few years now allowing the JETS to sneak into the playoffs. Buffalo and MIAMI are now rising. Will the JETS get in the playoffs three out of the next 4 years? Plus NE shows no signs of letting up and Belly Ache always seems to outsmart HERM! Sorry folks but HERM must step up to the next level and play BELLY ACHE to a standstill. IMO he is not capable of that!

[bitonti]

there was a time not too long ago when the same people on this thread that are saying Herm is outside of the top 10 wouldn't consider this man worthy of head coaching in the league AT ALL. Now he's not top 10. Whatever. Time will tell on Herm and so far the results have been pretty positive.

[TomShane]

there was a time not too long ago when the same people on this thread that are saying Herm is outside of the top 10 wouldn't consider this man worthy of head coaching in the league AT ALL. Now he's not top 10. Whatever. Time will tell on Herm and so far the results have been pretty positive.

Dude has one year left. Woody ain't taking sh*t this year. It's AFC Championship game or bust for ol' Hermy.

[bitonti]

there's no point in issuing ultimatums when there are no feasible alternatives. Herm makes the AFC champ game or else what? they hire Dave Wanndstat?

There are 31 coaches in the league every year that go home losers, that doesn't make them all bad coaches. Herm should be the coach of the Jets as long as the team keeps showing progress. Scraping the program and starting over every 2 years is a page out of "how to run a franchise into the ground" by Dan Snyder

[bitonti]

The AFc has been depleted for a few years now allowing the JETS to sneak into the playoffs.

if the AFC is "depleted" then what is the NFC? friggin spent? you guys make me laugh.

[TomShane]

there's no point in issuing ultimatums when there are no feasible alternatives. Herm makes the AFC champ game or else what? they hire Dave Wanndstat?

There are 31 coaches in the league every year that go home losers, that doesn't make them all bad coaches. Herm should be the coach of the Jets as long as the team keeps showing progress. Scraping the program and starting over every 2 years is a page out of "how to run a franchise into the ground" by Dan Snyder

Hey! My boy Gary Kubiak will most likely be available!

[bitonti]

Hey! My boy Gary Kubiak will most likely be available!

ok and how much Head coaching experience does HE have? what about Donnie Henderson and Dinger, both there on Herm's request? firing Herm is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

file Gary Kubiak under "greener, the grass on the other side is not always"

[TomShane]

ok and how much Head coaching experience does HE have? what about Donnie Henderson and Dinger, both there on Herm's request? firing Herm is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

file Gary Kubiak under "greener, the grass on the other side is not always"

But we know that the grass on our side is yellowing, B. And the issue isn't that Herm didn't have HC experience, it was that he had no coordinator experience. Dinger, Hendu and Kube have that at least.

[dickkotite]

BOTTOM LINE - you guys can hate all you want, if Herm was fired he would be hired again in about 5 minutes.

haha wow something new from bitonti

[dickkotite]

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Jon Gruden

d!ck Vermeil

Andy Reid

Marvin Lewis

John Fox

Joe Gibbs

Jeff Fisher

Mike Shanahan

Dennis Green

Mike Holmgren

Steve Mariucci

Mike Martz

savage did a good job. these 13 are better than herm. there is no doubt about this. 7 of them are SB winners:

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Jon Gruden

d!ck Vermeil

Andy Reid

Marvin Lewis

John Fox

Joe Gibbs

Jeff Fisher

Mike Shanahan

Dennis Green

Mike Holmgren

maybe fox could go either way.

end of discussion. herm is NOT a top ten coach. Doesnt mean he doesnt have any qualities though

[Meddle]

Wow, this thread is downright funny. The lengths by which some will go to discredit a good coach is just too much.

BTW, I never said he was top ten. I don't much care what his qualitative ranking is on message boards.

My posts are out there. No need to keep repeating myself.

[Sperm Edwards]

-Joe Gibbs is done. He's a top 10 coach from the 1980s. These days he's an anachronism. Someone who should have stayed retired.

He may be. But with 3 SB rings he more than earns the benefit of the doubt. I'd love to see Herm "take responsibility" with a meddling owner like that.

-Steve Mariucci - yeah ok. Why is he so great exactly? He needs to have STUD playmakers at every offensive skill position to even have a chance.

He's not "so great" but he's no slouch. Detroit was a horrible mess when he got there. He did a really quick rebuild in 2 years in SF. Cap hell after a 12-4 season; 2 rebuilding years; then back to 12-4 again. No one considered either Jeff Garcia or Garrison Hearst or Charlie Garner a "stud playmaker" until they became such under his watch. Ditto Terrell Owens, who never behaved so well.

-Martz is an offensive genius but make no mistake his players wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. It takes more than just X and Os to be a great coach.

I agree with you on this completely. But how did Herm successfully gameplan his Jets against Martz' Rams last year?

-d!ck Vermeil is a great coach... if the year is 1980! he's done too. DONE! an old a$$ man that cries all the time. Not as good as he used to be. Should be retired.

His crying IS annoying. But the guy turned a team that was horrible for a decade into a Superbowl winner in his 3rd season, with an Arena Football League quarterback turned 2x league MVP. 1999 isn't last year, but it's hardly 1980. Did you watch football before Herm was hired? The year before last they won 13 games. We also watched Priest Holmes go from an absolute nobody into the game's best RB almost overnight. Moreover, his teams are just plain fun to watch, even if they couldn't keep my high school JV team out of the endzone.

-Marvin Lewis is no better than Herm. In fact in a head to head match up the Jets cleaned Marv's clock. He has proven nothing as a HC to date, aside that he can lead a team to a mediocre record.

I disagree. Herm didn't have HALF the hardship Lewis did when they took over their respective teams. Brought the offense from #28 to #10 and the defense from dead last at #32 to #21 in two years. His Bengals certainly put up more of a fight in New England than we did. We only beat them by a touchdown despite playing a first-year QB and an overall inferior roster. Their offense could be deadly this year. More than anything, he made a joke of a franchise actually watchable...and respected (even while wearing those hideous uniforms).

-Dennis Green - oh yeah what has he done exactly? remember when he started Shaun King at QB against the Jets just for the heck of it? Seriously this guy hasn't accomplished anything more than Herm.

I was never really on the Dennis Green bandwagon myself. He'd always found himself in a situation with a solid roster. But to say a guy whose team won 15 reg season games and was a missed FG away from the superbowl hasn't accomplished anything more than Herm...the word silly comes to mind. With Arizona, he did take their defense from #32 to #12 in one year. Not bad.

-Jon Gruden got VERY VERY lucky to meet the team in the SB who's offense he created. Talk about inheriting a team full of studs, what has he done with these guys over the hill? Nothing that's what.

Well way to gloss over the fact that he built that Raiders superbowl team (that any objective Pats fan admits could've been in the SB instead of them the year before). And what a cinch it is to take a team to the superbowl when you were coaching in the other conference the year before! Chucky is WAY better than Herm.

-Mike Shanahan - are you serious? This guy drafted Darrent Williams over Justin Miller. This guy spent a first day pick on Clarett! he signed Ron Dayne and Jerry Rice and traded for the entire CLE Defensive line? As a coach he has done nothing without Elway and Terrell Davis. The Jets have beaten his a$$ heads up in a late season battle with playoff implications.

By this logic, the Tuna sucks also b/c he made bad draft picks. We're talking about coaching. Shanahan hasn't done much lately, but it may just be further proof that coaches should stick to coaching. It's too big of a job otherwise. The guy does have two superbowl rings, and you don't get those by "making the playoffs three out of four years" & making even quicker exits (while looking badly outcoached, no less)

-John Fox - did you see him go for 2 early in the super bowl? This was a major coaching blunder in the game of his life - yet people still think he is better than Herm - why? If Herm did what Fox did in the SB you guys wouldn't let anyone forget it. He's a good coach but not brilliant.

I did see it. We all did. Of course the reason we saw that is because they were IN the superbowl. Herm is now a better coach than one of the game's best defensive minds, who took a 1-15 team to the big dance in two years???

where does that leave Herm? #7 on the list. You might not agree with what I am saying but the point is that a case can be made for Herman and it's a pretty solid case - how many on that list have made the playoffs as much as Herm? how many on that list have made hires like Donnie Henderson and Dinger like Herm? you guys crap on Herm all the time but it's time to face the fact that there aren't any perfect coaches out there and what we have isn't exactly garbage.

Sure, a case can be made for Herm, but not a solid one. If you want to convince people who don't already agree with you, a better case is needed.

Herm...#7...

[Savage69]

Wow, this thread is downright funny. The lengths by which some will go to discredit a good coach is just too much.

BTW, I never said he was top ten. I don't much care what his qualitative ranking is on message boards.

My posts are out there. No need to keep repeating myself.

I don't discredit Herm..I think he's a great guy

that took over a Good Team! He was hired more for

Political reasons then because he was a great

Coach..But Herm lovers say he's done things the

Tuna hasn't and compare him to Super Bowl winning

Coaches or Coaches that took over bad Teams and

at least made the Bowl! All Herm has done is ride

what the Tuna left! Look at the Top players on the

Jets..How many was Herm or Bradway responsible for??

and this is going into their 5th year..All the All-

Pro's were here!! Not to mention both Vinny and Chad

who took their Teams to the playoffs! Herm is a Rah

Rah Guy and a good Speaker..That doesn't make him

a Good Football Coach!

[Meddle]

I don't discredit Herm..

You don't? You claim that his hiring was a PR stunt even after the guy puts out three playoff teams.

Herm took over a team that was two straight years out of the playoffs, but you continually say he was given a good team. That's a disingenuous way to discredit him.

When you brush off a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL and has paid all kinds of dues as a guy who was hired based on race, you are discrediting the man.

TO BE CLEAR - I am not pulling the race card. Full stop.

It is a discredit to the man.

He played ten years in this league and played in a SB and for a damn good head coach. He then did some organizational type work in KC (please, no weak coffee jokes) and got into coaching in TB. Of course rather than focus on his exp as a DB coach and an assistant head coach, we focus on the fact that he was not a coordinator.

Many folks go from coordinator to HC, but we are going to flip out because Herm only coached a position and then went to a leadership position and then a top-level leadership position.

No credence can be given to the idea that when given his first and potentially his only chance to run a team, Terry Bradway went after who he thought was the best guy. No, we are to believe that he engaged in a PR move as his first order of business rather than a legit head coach.

This is all discrediting, whether you believe the conspiracy theory or not.

The Herm hatchet job goes on by angst ridden Jet fans from all corners of the net. And, when folks like me say "hey, this guy has done some good things", we get blasted as homers. A homer - for saying that a winning coach is indeed a winning coach and that there just may be a few reasons that his teams have certain positive characteristics. Characteristics that the belie incompetence.

I never said the guy was flawless or beyond being replaced or beyond criticism. I just think the man deserves more than a pat on the head and the "Herm's a nice guy - that can't coach his way out of a paper bag" treatment.

But do what you feel must to keep it real or whatever. All coaches have flaws. Every single one. Torre, Belly, Pat Riley and Bowman all have flaws. When they lose, those flaws start floating towards the surface. Just look at what Torre's endured lately. If the Pats start losing - Belly will start hearing about his gruff attitude and lack of people skills and that he let too many good people go. The critics always find something.

I thought Belly was the best coach in football before the Pats even won the big game. I was telling my Pat fan buds that they had a legit shot versus the Rams when everyone said they would get blown away. I felt this way because I had seen what Belly can do to an offense when given time to prepare. I put a HUGE value on good coaching. So my support of Herm is not support from soemone who de-values coaching. Quite the opposite.

Losing Belly at that awful PC with HCNYJ note was an awful moment in our history. I knew it at the time. I often get the feeling that Herm Edwards pays for that PC with all the barbs he takes for simply not being Billy B. He's not, but he's a good coach.

We've been going back and forth on this for like two years (Jet-Zep being my alter Insider ego) and we are simply repeating ourselves at this point.

At least we still agree on Lamont. Though not on Curtis...

Let's end this with substance. Tell me what it is you want. I want Herm to get this year and then be judged WITH BRADWAY on what they have done with five years. If they are headed in the right direction. then great, but if we have another hiccup, I would want total regime change.

What's your hope?

BTW, I never answered the question relating to this thread. I have Herm in the middle. I could argue him as high as 7-8 or as low as circa 20, but he's somwhere in the middle third area. But who cares? It's just a qualatative assessment.

We need some new topics...

[Savage69]

You don't? You claim that his hiring was a PR stunt even after the guy puts out three playoff teams.

Herm took over a team that was two straight years out of the playoffs, but you continually say he was given a good team. That's a disingenuous way to discredit him.

When you brush off a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL and has paid all kinds of dues as a guy who was hired based on race, you are discrediting the man.

TO BE CLEAR - I am not pulling the race card. Full stop.

It is a discredit to the man.

He played ten years in this league and played in a SB and for a damn good head coach. He then did some organizational type work in KC (please, no weak coffee jokes) and got into coaching in TB. Of course rather than focus on his exp as a DB coach and an assistant head coach, we focus on the fact that he was not a coordinator.

Many folks go from coordinator to HC, but we are going to flip out because Herm only coached a position and then went to a leadership position and then a top-level leadership position.

No credence can be given to the idea that when given his first and potentially his only chance to run a team, Terry Bradway went after who he thought was the best guy. No, we are to believe that he engaged in a PR move as his first order of business rather than a legit head coach.

This is all discrediting, whether you believe the conspiracy theory or not.

The Herm hatchet job goes on by angst ridden Jet fans from all corners of the net. And, when folks like me say "hey, this guy has done some good things", we get blasted as homers. A homer - for saying that a winning coach is indeed a winning coach and that there just may be a few reasons that his teams have certain positive characteristics. Characteristics that the belie incompetence.

I never said the guy was flawless or beyond being replaced or beyond criticism. I just think the man deserves more than a pat on the head and the "Herm's a nice guy - that can't coach his way out of a paper bag" treatment.

But do what you feel must to keep it real or whatever. All coaches have flaws. Every single one. Torre, Belly, Pat Riley and Bowman all have flaws. When they lose, those flaws start floating towards the surface. Just look at what Torre's endured lately. If the Pats start losing - Belly will start hearing about his gruff attitude and lack of people skills and that he let too many good people go. The critics always find something.

I thought Belly was the best coach in football before the Pats even won the big game. I was telling my Pat fan buds that they had a legit shot versus the Rams when everyone said they would get blown away. I felt this way because I had seen what Belly can do to an offense when given time to prepare. I put a HUGE value on good coaching. So my support of Herm is not support from soemone who de-values coaching. Quite the opposite.

Losing Belly at that awful PC with HCNYJ note was an awful moment in our history. I knew it at the time. I often get the feeling that Herm Edwards pays for that PC with all the barbs he takes for simply not being Billy B. He's not, but he's a good coach.

We've been going back and forth on this for like two years (Jet-Zep being my alter Insider ego) and we are simply repeating ourselves at this point.

At least we still agree on Lamont. Though not on Curtis...

Let's end this with substance. Tell me what it is you want. I want Herm to get this year and then be judged WITH BRADWAY on what they have done with five years. If they are headed in the right direction. then great, but if we have another hiccup, I would want total regime change.

What's your hope?

BTW, I never answered the question relating to this thread. I have Herm in the middle. I could argue him as high as 7-8 or as low as circa 20, but he's somwhere in the middle third area. But who cares? It's just a qualatative assessment.

We need some new topics...

Other then say Herm led the Jets to 3 playoffs

why not post the Great things he's done?? He

wasn't given a good Team?? Here's what you miss!

99 Big Tuna Mistake not having a good backup when

Vinny went down trying to get Martins Fumble! Also

not using Ray soon enough as he went 6-3 as a

starter! Might have made the Playoffs had Ray been

in early?

Groh had Vinny after being out for a

whole year,yet started the season 6-1,however not

only the rust on Vinny started showing but Groh

lost the Team! Had Hall made the FG's against the

Lions or Vinny followed orders in the Raven Game

we might have made the Playoffs! Still the Team

was 9-7 with a BAD Coach!

OK lets be fair! Take away Vinny,Chad,Mawae,Coles

and Martin on the O and Abe,Ellis,Fergy on Defense!

Will you still say Hermie would have taken the

Jets to the Playoff's 3 out of 4 yrs?? I ask you

name the Great things Hermie has done?? List just

3..BTW if you would stop defending Hermie these

treads that you cry about might cease! :wink:

[PFSIKH]

I ask you

name the Great things Hermie has done?? List just

3.. :wink:

1. The BarBQ to get the team together when he announced Chad would finally get a NFL start after almost 40 games on the ench. No better way to get the team to rally around Chad then some good ribs.

2. The BarBQ with the crack laced BarBQ sauce that had a clearly out of his mind Donnie Henderson agreeing to coach the Jets. No way to get a coaching talent to come to New Jersey then some good ribs.

3. End of season barbecue at the Hempstead complex. No better way to get over a: Oakland ass kicking in 2001, Chad's Oakland meltdown in the second Oakland ass kicking in 2002 and Doug Breins choke in 2004. No better way to get the team over forgettable playoff losses then a little indigestion.

[Sperm Edwards]

Other then say Herm led the Jets to 3 playoffs

why not post the Great things he's done?? He

wasn't given a good Team?? Here's what you miss!

99 Big Tuna Mistake not having a good backup when

Vinny went down trying to get Martins Fumble! Also

not using Ray soon enough as he went 6-3 as a

starter! Might have made the Playoffs had Ray been

in early?

Groh had Vinny after being out for a

whole year,yet started the season 6-1,however not

only the rust on Vinny started showing but Groh

lost the Team! Had Hall made the FG's against the

Lions or Vinny followed orders in the Raven Game

we might have made the Playoffs! Still the Team

was 9-7 with a BAD Coach!

OK lets be fair! Take away Vinny,Chad,Mawae,Coles

and Martin on the O and Abe,Ellis,Fergy on Defense!

Will you still say Hermie would have taken the

Jets to the Playoff's 3 out of 4 yrs?? I ask you

name the Great things Hermie has done?? List just

3..BTW if you would stop defending Hermie these

treads that you cry about might cease! :wink:

Amen and amen, Uncle Savage. On here & JI, this question has been put to Hermophiles hundreds of times (conservatively). We have yet to see a single response in CONCRETE terms. It's always the master motivator crap & he gets his team to play hard, blah blah blah. What COACHING MOVES, particularly DURING A GAME has he done? Always the response (if any) is a generalization about him being an overall good head coach. No schemes he came up with, no gameplans, no great play calls (offense OR defense). Not even A play call, even when none came in from the booth vs Baltimore. He was a deer caught in the headlights. This means that if a crappy play DID come in, like Carter pitching to Martin, pitching to Sowell, pitching to Moss, run backwards 10 yards, then look for an open Quincy Carter in the endzone, our fearless leader had NOTHING ELSE BETTER IN MIND.

The big changes that Herm implemented or enforced, that I can recall off the top of my head are:

- Implementing a WCO with an immobile pocket passer

- Converting Shaun Ellis to DT after a promising 8.5 sack rookie season at DE

- The Cover-2 defense as our base package despite a 3-4 DC on a 3-4 team

- Changing the offensive playcalling to be more vertical vs NE in ’03 (of course he announced it to the world beforehand)

If ANY of these had worked, Hermophiles would have SOMETHING concrete to point to. (“Hey, he turned a 2nd-year DE into a pro-bowl DT” or something like that). Of course, they were collossal failures. Since then, I cannot conceive of anything he did that could be considered “innovative” or involved “coaching” at all.

[TomShane]

You know what's great? Herm has '05 to "prove" himself. So far he's a middling coach and a moron. If they win, Herm is a real live coach. If they don't, and they go 9-7, 10-6, then Herm is toast anyway. No longer are people saying "Herm is a bright young coach..." they're saying "Herm is a good coach, but...." It's '05 or bust for the Herm-man. Woody ain't taking no shizzle this year. The first time he has a Ravens-type meltdown, his ass will be back on the street.

[Meddle]

You guys make me laugh. You are so focused on your little cause that you just don't see straight. You've got these apparent demerits, many of which I don't even agree with, that are somehow supposed to outweigh the man's tangible accomplishments.

What great accomplishments? This is how we judge coaches now? I go by their record.

Savage rips ABE and Cumar on a regular basis and now we are to accept Herm is blessed by their mere presence when he took over.

Herm screwed up all the schemes and put players at the wrong positions, but we are suppose to somehow disregard that he won while doing so?

You guy are entitled to think what you want. I accept it, but see it very differently.

Enjoy.

[TomShane]

You guys make me laugh. You are so focused on your little cause that you just don't see straight. You've got these apparent demerits, many of which I don't even agree with, that are somehow supposed to outweigh the man's tangible accomplishments.

What great accomplishments? This is how we judge coaches now? I go by their record.

Savage rips ABE and Cumar on a regular basis and now we are to accept Herm is blessed by their mere presence when he took over.

Herm screwed up all the schemes and put players at the wrong positions, but we are suppose to somehow disregard that he won while doing so?

You guy are entitled to think what you want. I accept it, but see it very differently.

Enjoy.

Tangible results:

4 seasons: 35-29 record; 2-3 playoff record.

Treading water defined.

[PatsFanTX]

What great accomplishments? This is how we judge coaches now? I go by their record.

His record?

35-29 (and I'll bet he has a losing record against teams with winning records)

2-3 playoff games

0 AFC Championship Game appearances

0 Super Bowl appearances

Looks very mediocre to me. :wink:

[Meddle]

You know what's great? Herm has '05 to "prove" himself. So far he's a middling coach and a moron. If they win, Herm is a real live coach. If they don't, and they go 9-7, 10-6, then Herm is toast anyway. No longer are people saying "Herm is a bright young coach..." they're saying "Herm is a good coach, but...." It's '05 or bust for the Herm-man. Woody ain't taking no shizzle this year. The first time he has a Ravens-type meltdown, his a$$ will be back on the street.

I think if the Jets are a failure, he ought to go. Not 100% sure that he will. I hope they would can the whole regime if things don't fly this year.

That said, I can't see them firing them after a ten win season. Ten wins is an accomplishment that gets put down a lot around here, but in reality, it's the stamp of a quality team/season. Of course it's not the SB or even the elite level, but it's a prerequisite for both and an accomplishment in and of itself.

If, at the end of the year, we are playing well and in the playoffs, I would likely be fine with ten wins. OF COURSE I WANT MORE, but that does not mean 10 wins is insignificant.

Being fair and rational is generally the way to go. Saying that we haven't won it in thirty plus years and therefore must have higher standards will actually cause grab-bagging and will get you into trouble and a vicious cycle of replacement. What you want are the same standards all the time. Just keep doing the right thing over and over. A totality of good decisions will eventually get you over the hump.

It's not my call. To me the 2005 season, as you and others have said, a referendum. This is their team, and if it fails to fly, I would can them.

[Meddle]

Tangible results:

4 seasons: 35-29 record; 2-3 playoff record.

Treading water defined.

That's a definite possibility. Though I would caution you from spitting an any winning record, I also agree that you have to have standards.

They HAVE refaced the team over the last two seasons. I think they deserve to see how their ride works.

I'm very interested in how this year plays out. I am only a medium fan of Bradway's and though I like Herm, the time has come to open it up.

[TomShane]

That's a definite possibility. Though I would caution you from spitting an any winning record, I also agree that you have to have standards.

They HAVE refaced the team over the last two seasons. I think they deserve to see how their ride works.

I'm very interested in how this year plays out. I am only a medium fan of Bradway's and though I like Herm, the time has come to open it up.

That's fair, bro. I think what I haven't made clear is that, despite my hatred for Herm, he has enough water under the bridge to get another chance this season, but not enough water to earn the benefit of the doubt if the Jets don't make significant progress.

[LionelRichie]

It's like Parcells says - you are what your record says you are:

Herm 10-6

BB 14-2

Brian Billick 9-7

Tuna 6-10

Jon Gruden 5-11

d!ck Vermeil 5-11

Andy Reid 13-3

Marvin Lewis 8-8 (has he ever had a winning year?)

John Fox 7-9

Joe Gibbs 6-10

Jeff Fisher 5-11

Mike Shanahan 10-6

Dennis Green 6-10

Mike Holmgren 9-7

exactly 2 coaches w/better records last year.

savage did a good job. these 13 are better than herm. there is no doubt about this. 7 of them are SB winners:

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Jon Gruden

d!ck Vermeil

Andy Reid

Marvin Lewis

John Fox

Joe Gibbs

Jeff Fisher

Mike Shanahan

Dennis Green

Mike Holmgren

maybe fox could go either way.

end of discussion. herm is NOT a top ten coach. Doesnt mean he doesnt have any qualities though

[Green DNA]

It's like Parcells says - you are what your record says you are:

Herm 10-6

BB 14-2

Brian Billick 9-7

Tuna 6-10

Jon Gruden 5-11

d!ck Vermeil 5-11

Andy Reid 13-3

Marvin Lewis 8-8 (has he ever had a winning year?)

John Fox 7-9

Joe Gibbs 6-10

Jeff Fisher 5-11

Mike Shanahan 10-6

Dennis Green 6-10

Mike Holmgren 9-7

exactly 2 coaches w/better records last year.

Don't cloud the issue with facts

[Sperm Edwards]

So then with that logic, Bill Cowher is hands-down the best coach in the NFL?

[LionelRichie]

So then with that logic, Bill Cowher is hands-down the best coach in the NFL?

he may not be hands down the best, but he certainly is not one of the worst. which is where you have herm slotted.

[stormshadow19]

Marvin Lewis 8-8 (has he ever had a winning year?)

Well... he took over a team, in the Bengals, more commonly refered to as the Bungles, and in two years turned them into respectable on the verge of blowing up and becoming very good. His talent level was nowhere near what Herm had, when he took over. In all fairness to Marvin Lewis.

[bitonti]

you guys may not believe in Herm but the players do and that's all that matters. Also I guaruntee if the Jets disposed of Herm they would lose the coordinators to other teams as well. These men are loyal to Herm not to Woody or Bradway.

[TomShane]

you guys may not believe in Herm but the players do and that's all that matters. Also I guaruntee if the Jets disposed of Herm they would lose the coordinators to other teams as well. These men are loyal to Herm not to Woody or Bradway.

I agree with this. Dinger was very clear that he came to NY for the short term to gain visibility and get a HC gig somewhere. And Donnie, no question IMO, if he repeats last year's performance, will get a gig somewhere. Off the top of my head the jobs that are very likely to open up next year are KC, Detroit, Seattle, Houston, St. Louis, and New Orleans. That's six jobs there, and if the Cowboys back-slide, Parcells will jump ship there.

Donnie or Dinger, if they do anything here, will be hot names for those jobs.

[Meddle]

I agree with this. Dinger was very clear that he came to NY for the short term to gain visibility and get a HC gig somewhere. And Donnie, no question IMO, if he repeats last year's performance, will get a gig somewhere. Off the top of my head the jobs that are very likely to open up next year are KC, Detroit, Seattle, Houston, St. Louis, and New Orleans. That's six jobs there, and if the Cowboys back-slide, Parcells will jump ship there.

Donnie or Dinger, if they do anything here, will be hot names for those jobs.

I don't discount that they will be looked at if they do well, but Henderson interviewed for nothing off of last year, so it may not be as imminent as you think.

Dinger has already interviewed for some positions. He has stated his desire to be a HC. I don't know that he'd take any position, but he's a candidate to leave. Still, there will be many hot coordinators apart from our guys, plus hot college coaches and retreads.

Let's hope our guys do so well that they are both potentially gone.

For those who hope that Herm expires, at least we have two viable HC candidates around. One potential way to retain some continuity if we think the talent is close but Herm needs to go.

Could be worse.