Irish Jet Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Two things: immediate impact isnt that important, and in short order I think that Ellis and probably D-Rob are at the tail end of their Jet careers. If D-Rob stays then it will be in a different role supplemented (hopefully) by some reinforcements: ie, an impact draftee and a FA upgrade (not unlike Dominator's mock scenario, which includes Okum and Kelly). Again I agree, I never stated that I didn't want the Jets to take Long because of that, just that I don't expect immediate production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Two things: immediate impact isnt that important, and in short order I think that Ellis and probably D-Rob are at the tail end of their Jet careers. If D-Rob stays then it will be in a different role supplemented (hopefully) by some reinforcements: ie, an impact draftee and a FA upgrade (not unlike Dominator's mock scenario, which includes Okum and Kelly). As much as I like taking credit for other people's work, that was Peter North's mock, not mine. I had some issues with it - I doubt that Pennington or Dyson will ever start for the Jets again - but I don't have much problem with his handling of the NT. I'm not sold on Okam in the middle, but with Kelley and Pouha here to battle it's a sound plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 As much as I like taking credit for other people's work, that was Peter North's mock, not mine. I had some issues with it - I doubt that Pennington or Dyson will ever start for the Jets again - but I don't have much problem with his handling of the NT. I'm not sold on Okam in the middle, but with Kelley and Pouha here to battle it's a sound plan. I agree re Dyson and Pennington. The Jets will never move forward with Penny on the roster. He is brave and, but for the injuries, could have been an all-time great Jet QB. But his time is past. Also, I agree re Okam as a NT. I'd like to see how Tre Moore's stock develops over the next few months. To me he is the type of guy that can immediately impact the defense as a DE and then (literally) one day grow into the NT job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I'd like to see how Tre Moore's stock develops over the next few months. To me he is the type of guy that can immediately impact the defense as a DE and then (literally) one day grow into the NT job. Maybe, but if we dump DRob we need help NOW at NT. Hell, we probably need help now if we keep DRob. There are quite a few guys falling in love with this Rubin. I think UT or somebody has a mock with him in the 2nd. Haven't seen much of him, but I watched at least two games he played in and don't remember him. For an NFL prospect that is generally a bad sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I've seen you make this point before. Basically, you feel the lighter more "pass rush-y" DE should be at RDE to go after the QBs blind side. Valid thought and it seems to go with the Jetcane/124 observation that is seems odd that Bryan Thomas was flipflopped and Hobson was put at the more pass rush oriented OLB. My question is this: wouldn't it make sense to have the better 2-gap DE on the right to occupy the LT and LG and let the ROLB blow in facing only a TE or back? It doesn't seem like Ellis is doing much occupying of blockers over there lately and I don't think he's going to make any lanes for the LB. OTOH, it's probably fairly hard to slide the blockers so the LG gets Ellis and the LT gets the LB. I'm not always sure who plays on which side because most Jet game haven't made AFN and I watch them on the damn laptop. Won't get to watch any tapes of them 'til my Dad gets here and after this ****ty season I'm not sure I want to see them. I understand where you're coming from. The better 2-gap DE eats up the LT so the ROLB get to the QB. Thing is, we're the only 3-4 team that tries to employ that logic. Most put the passrushy DE on the right side or have both DE's look like beefy DT's. I find it difficult to believe we have it right & every successful 3-4 D has it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I understand where you're coming from. The better 2-gap DE eats up the LT so the ROLB get to the QB. Thing is, we're the only 3-4 team that tries to employ that logic. Most put the passrushy DE on the right side or have both DE's look like beefy DT's. I find it difficult to believe we have it right & every successful 3-4 D has it wrong. I'll buy that we aren't doing it right. It was just a thought. Another possibility is that Mangini is using the players where he sees them fit in when the D is "complete". I think that's why he flipped Bryan Thomas. He saw Bowens as getting the most snaps on the other side an Bowens is the passrusshy LB. Obviously Ellis should be a better rusher than Coleman, but shouldn't it be easier to get around the RT than the LT? Maybe it was a ploy to put the rush in the qb's face, rather than try to blast the qb's blind side? I'm not sure, but whatever it was, it was not effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I'll buy that we aren't doing it right. It was just a thought. Another possibility is that Mangini is using the players where he sees them fit in when the D is "complete". I think that's why he flipped Bryan Thomas. He saw Bowens as getting the most snaps on the other side an Bowens is the passrusshy LB. Obviously Ellis should be a better rusher than Coleman, but shouldn't it be easier to get around the RT than the LT? Maybe it was a ploy to put the rush in the qb's face, rather than try to blast the qb's blind side? I'm not sure, but whatever it was, it was not effective. Possibly. Ellis really isn't all that fast himself, though. He had like 4.9 speed as a rookie. Not that DE's need to run 40 yards like ever, but he's chasing down no one. But I see your point, if they have the idea that they're keeping DRob & thinking of moving him to Ellis' spot & finding someone else to replace or rotate with Pouha at nose. Still need someone to get to the passer. I really don't know what to make of Bowens since I didn't remember seeing him on defense really until the last couple of games. Hard to plan on penciling him in as starter when he barely played the prior year. He looks the part on paper I guess, but if he couldn't beat out Hobson until the very end of the season (and even then splitting time with him), then it's not encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Maybe, but if we dump DRob we need help NOW at NT. Hell, we probably need help now if we keep DRob. There are quite a few guys falling in love with this Rubin. I think UT or somebody has a mock with him in the 2nd. Haven't seen much of him, but I watched at least two games he played in and don't remember him. For an NFL prospect that is generally a bad sign. I can see NT manned as follows in 2008: Puoha, Mosley, FA (Kelly, whatever). I can see the Jets drafting a NT prospect (say, Bryant or Moore or Sims or Okam, again whatever) and having him play 2008 as a DE behind or with Ellis and Coleman. Even without Robertson this to me is an upgraded DL. And if you have drafted an elite OLB prospect (Harvey or Gholston or Groves) or signed Suggs, then you have a much upgraded defense that really only lacks another CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I really don't know what to make of Bowens since I didn't remember seeing him on defense really until the last couple of games. Hard to plan on penciling him in as starter when he barely played the prior year. He looks the part on paper I guess, but if he couldn't beat out Hobson until the very end of the season (and even then splitting time with him), then it's not encouraging. I agree, but I don't necessarily think they were counting on Bowens starting. I think they meant to use him on passing downs. I think his inability in coverage kept him from seeing much time early. He looked lost anytime he wasn't rushing ahead. If they planned for him to play on rush downs opposite Thomas it might explain why Hobson was on the rush side. If that's not it I'm at a complete loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNorth09 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I like the upgrade in the trenches in this off-season and our pass rush would dramatically improve with those 3 guys added in the front 7. Hopefully though if we take Gholston it comes as a result of us trading down because I just don't think he's worth the #6 pick. Really, really unsure about Chad starting again, I think he's a good QB but can't see him starting again for us. I'm not sure if Okam could play 3-4 NT, he's not dominant enough IMO to attract double teams consistently, I would consider another option there. The WR position hasn't been addressed at all which IMO would be a great concern, I love both Coles and Cotch but I'm really hoping we can aqquire someone who can stretch the field and provide the deep threat. Hopefully we can bring in someone like Hackett or Berrian to address that need. Good job overall though, some moves there that I really like. Thanks. I have the Jets taking Gholston because he is talented and is the kind of player the Jets need. If there is a simlar player who is better then the Jets should go that route. If the Jets are sticking with the 3-4 I'd like for them to get more than one edge rusher this off-season in case someone gets injured or just doesn't play well. I'd like Chad to be the starter next year since it looks like Rivers is staying in SD and I doubt the Jets will go after Anderson or Brady Quinn. Chad is still the best QB on our roster and I'd hate to go into next season with Kellen Clemens and some scrub veteran like Josh McCown. WR is a need but not as urgent thanks to Cotch's emergence the past couple years. I'd like for the Jets to go after Roy Williams with a package of Coles and a mid-round pick but if it doesn't happen I can definitely live with Coles and Cotch for one more season. We don't have a real 3rd receiver on the roster. Brad Smith is shaky and McCareins just plain stinks and I don't know what Chansi Stuckey will ever amount to. That's why I'd like the jets to draft someone like John Carlson who can be a good No. 2 tight end. The Pats have been running double TE sets to perfection the past several years and I'd like to give them a taste of their own medicine. I think a combo of Okam/Kelly would be a significant upgrade over Robertson who as we have all seen the past two years has no business playing Nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I agree, but I don't necessarily think they were counting on Bowens starting. I think they meant to use him on passing downs. I think his inability in coverage kept him from seeing much time early. He looked lost anytime he wasn't rushing ahead. If they planned for him to play on rush downs opposite Thomas it might explain why Hobson was on the rush side. If that's not it I'm at a complete loss. That and the lack of the Jets offense/defense forcing teams into passing situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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