DIE DOUG DIE

[BwanaZulia]

You mean the exact same defense that the Pats easily hung 41 on the very next weekend?

Brady absolutely lit up that defense with ease, PennyBoy couldn't do crap.

Weak arguement BZ, very weak.

Yeah.. Pennyboy with a shark tooth sized bone chip in his shoulder couldn't do crap. Boo Hooo...

The point is, he and Herm and Curtis and the Amazing Defense kept that game close and that is enough for me.

Yes, all bow down to the mighty Patsies and their domination. We all agree. The pats were amazing last year. Whoo hoo.. You can hang it over our heads for many years to come as you post one liners for the next 10 years on the many Jets boards.

The point is, we were close to taking you on in the AFC East Championship. I am not saying we would have won, it being a longshot and a half, but it would have been fun.

BZ

[Bugg]

You know what? 2004 is over.Dwelling on it will make you crazy. It now gets the same place next to that 1985/86 Browns OT game or the 1998 AFC Title game-a bad memory. If you happen to flip around Directv one night and see the highlights, take a look. But it's done and gone-over.

Start 2005, and let's see where things go. Fresh slate, new OC.Hopefully the OC and DC learned some things.

[Preston Howley III]

While it's nice and simple to blame the kicker,

if the Offense scored more then 3 points it would

not have mattered!! Moss scored and Tongue also and

their both gone as well as Brien..And lets not forget

Paul"Love my Cumar" Hackett!! Now we have a OC that

cares about the Team not just the stats of a single player !

Once again, the V.O.R. puts it all in perspective, but alas, as far as the Hermaphrodites (or, as you call them, Hermaphiles) go, it goes in one ear and out the other.

[PatsFanTX]

So you're saying that, even with the knowledge that your kicker can't make a 40+ FG, not to mention in Heinz Field, where NO ONE makes those kicks, that no fault can be blamed on the man in charge?

Damn 80, you are way too sensible to be a Jets fan.

[Savage69]

Damn 80, you are way too sensible to be a Jets fan.

There are a few of us..When people say I hate

Martin they forget the reason why I like a 2

back offense!! If we used Martin and Jordan

in a 60/40 rotation wouldn't it make sense that

Martin would have been better rested to do some

damage in the playoffs?? Granted no Leading rusher

for Martin but I'm thinking Team, not personal Glory

for one player that had he had the same carries as

the rest would have been 4th on the Rushing list and

had Holmes not been hurt he wouldn't have won either!

Holmes had 14 td's in 8 games..TD's not yardage wins

Games kiddies!! But Chef Hermie and his old

OC Paul "Love MY Cumar" Hackett had different idea's!

[TomShane]

The point is, he and Herm and Curtis and the Amazing Defense kept that game close and that is enough for me.

Well, well, well. There you go, I guess. We'll get em next time, tiger!

[BwanaZulia]

Well, well, well. There you go, I guess. We'll get em next time, tiger!

Shall we take a look at the TomShane plan?

Step 1) Fire Herm

Step 2) Find replacement

Step 3) Wait for three years of a "rebuild" and some good "gelling"

Now that is a plan.

BZ

[TomShane]

Shall we take a look at the TomShane plan?

Step 1) Fire Herm

Step 2) Find replacement

Step 3) Wait for three years of a "rebuild" and some good "gelling"

Now that is a plan.

BZ

You either win the Super Bowl, you build toward the Super Bowl in three years or less, or you go home. Herm is going on Year 5. If he doesn't do it this year he is a dead man walking anyway. That's how long Marty Schottenhemier got in Cleveland and that is how long Dungy got in Tampa. Do I think that Herman, in order to get to a Super Bowl, can avoid being a moron for 4 games against elite competition, both in terms of talent and coaching? Nope. Picture this scenario: Jets make the playoffs, Herm has to beat, say, Shanahan, Dungy, Belichick and let's throw in a chippy here, say, Dick Vermeil to get to the bowl. Do you think for a second that not one of those guys outside of Dungy are going to rip Herm wide open? It'd be like pitting Dexter Manley against Gary Kasparov in a game of chess. So, yes, I DO think Herm should be gone, consequences be damned, because I do not think he can win us a Super Bowl.

[Steelrzgirl]

You guys actually watch that game? Im a steelers fan and I cant watch that game! lol

After the AFCC, I thought the Jets game was the karma Gods just messing with Jerome Bettis and dangling that trophy just to jerk it away and say "neener neener neener".

Someone made the "pulled a Schottenhiemer" comment, and I know just how you feel.

[Savage69]

You either win the Super Bowl, you build toward the Super Bowl in three years or less, or you go home. Herm is going on Year 5. If he doesn't do it this year he is a dead man walking anyway. That's how long Marty Schottenhemier got in Cleveland and that is how long Dungy got in Tampa. Do I think that Herman, in order to get to a Super Bowl, can avoid being a moron for 4 games against elite competition, both in terms of talent and coaching? Nope. Picture this scenario: Jets make the playoffs, Herm has to beat, say, Shanahan, Dungy, Belichick and let's throw in a chippy here, say, d!ck Vermeil to get to the bowl. Do you think for a second that not one of those guys outside of Dungy are going to rip Herm wide open? It'd be like pitting Dexter Manley against Gary Kasparov in a game of chess. So, yes, I DO think Herm should be gone, consequences be damned, because I do not think he can win us a Super Bowl.

TS Hermie was handpicked by Tags to be the first HC

from the NFL's minority program!! He gets 10 years

minimum!! Marvin Lewis,Dennis Green and other

minority Coaches "Worked their Way" to the position!

If Hermie goes look for Tags to insert another favorite Son to be the Jet Coach! Unless Woody and

TB grow a pair which I doubt!!

[Bugg]

I could be crazy or mistaken, but the universally respected would-be replacement is Donnie Henderson, who is under contract.

Still, let it go. Let Hermie babble away; it means next to nothing. He's not making the big decisions. Henderson and Heimerdinger are.

Dexter Manley throws the board and all it's pieces up in the air when Kasparov moves his 1st pawn,and then curls up in the fetal positon crying for mommy.

[Barton]

You cannot compare Holmes TD stats to Martin. You cannot do that.

Do you really think Holmes would ever rush for 30 TDs in a season if he wasnt in kansas city? Highly unlikely considering he's not even that great of a running back.

People complain about Curtis not busting out long runs, but neither does Holmes.

When the Chiefs offense hits the redzone they have alot of options you have to think about, mainly all-pro TD catching machine Tony Gonzalez.

Pair that with the best run blocking Oline in the NFL with 1 of the best lead blocking FBs and its no wonder why Holmes has so many TDs.

Holmes wouldnt have been anything really special as a Jet these past 3 seasons.

[Bugg]

Holmes-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/HolmPr00.htm

Martin-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MartCu00.htm

No offense-Holmes given Martin's carries, even missing 8 games with injury, easily matches Martin's production and probably surpasses it.

As I've noted in the past, if you give any prime pro back the level of carries Hackett gave Martin, they almost certainly match the production and likley surpass it. All of Martin's carries didn't necessarily mean the Jets were more successful. In fact, there's a strong argument that the slavish devotion to Martin as opposed to giving Jordan carries cost them games, especially in the playoffs. It made their offense clockwork predictable and easier to defend.Also, having a 32-year old running back is not a good long-term situation. He can still be productive, but Blaylock and Sowell had better see the ball a whole bunch more for the Jets to keep teams guessing and Martin fresher.

[TomShane]

You guys actually watch that game? Im a steelers fan and I cant watch that game! lol

After the AFCC, I thought the Jets game was the karma Gods just messing with Jerome Bettis and dangling that trophy just to jerk it away and say "neener neener neener".

Someone made the "pulled a Schottenhiemer" comment, and I know just how you feel.

Jerome Bettis deserves a Super Bowl ring like Charles Manson deserves parole!

TS Hermie was handpicked by Tags to be the first HC

from the NFL's minority program!! He gets 10 years

minimum!! Marvin Lewis,Dennis Green and other

minority Coaches "Worked their Way" to the position!

If Hermie goes look for Tags to insert another favorite Son to be the Jet Coach!

Hopefully that was just a one-shot deal that Woody needed to get approval to buy the team, Sav. There is just no way that Herm walked into an interview room and showed an ability to be an NFL head coach. Just no way. So I agree there were some serious political maneuvers going on there. That said, like Bugg says, it is what it is and now we just have to ride it out. BTW, I think if Herm gets whacked they'll hire from the outside.

[Steelrzgirl]

Jerome Bettis deserves a Super Bowl ring like Charles Manson deserves parole!

Youch! lol

Fair enough.

[Barton]

Holmes-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/HolmPr00.htm

Martin-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MartCu00.htm

No offense-Holmes given Martin's carries, even missing 8 games with injury, easily matches Martin's production and probably surpasses it.

You cannot really compare the Chiefs offense and Oline to the Jets offense and oline (including playcalling etc etc)

Take Barry Sanders out of retirement and he would rush for over 1,000 yards behind that Chiefs Oline. Holmes is a very good player, but that Chiefs system makes him look like a GREAT player. JMO

[Bugg]

If we have to watch another season of Martin going 20 times for 3 or 4 off tackle during the first half and going down with the first hit followed by a second half when defenses shut him down, the Jets will be lucky to win 6 games.

[Barton]

If we have to watch another season of Martin going 20 times for 3 or 4 off tackle during the first half and going down with the first hit followed by a second half when defenses shut him down, the Jets will be lucky to win 6 games.

Savage likes to bash Martin and say how Hackett helped pad Martins stats and make him seem like a great back.

I feel just the opposite. I think it was Hackett who dragged down Martin (to a certain degree)

Savage will quickly tell us how Hackett would call a draw play 3rd and 20 and how Martin would get 9 yards on the run and that helped Curtis attain his great YPC mark last season.

Completely untrue. How about all those times on 3rd and 2 when Hackett called a draw play to Martin and Martin got tackled for a 4 yard loss! Those runs definetly didnt help Martins rushing stats and YPC mark!! And how Hackett not showing the willingness to throw the deep ball! This allowed opposing defenses to stack the box with 8 to contain Martin! Surely none of this helped Martin at all.

Heimerdinger uses alot of zone blocking and lots of pulls/stunts with his olineman. The running back is asked to cut back alot, and when he does successfully throwing off the defense the gain in the run can be very large. Dinger also is know to throw some deep passes, so teams will not be stacking 8 at the line every single down to stop Martin. Assuming Martin stays healthy, I predict Martin will bust out several long runs next season as well as topping his 2004 YPC mark. He wont rush for 1,697 yards again. Not a chance. But he'll improve on his YPC mark as well as his runs of over 25 yards.

[Bugg]

Both are true, EB.The Jets have to spread the ball and mix it up. I think you're beingw ay too optimistic as to what you can expect from Martin. But a solid 1100-1300 yards from him coupled with a solid 600-800 from Balylock works. Which is why Heimerdinger is here in the first place.

[GimmeShelter]

If we have to watch another season of Martin going 20 times for 3 or 4 off tackle during the first half and going down with the first hit followed by a second half when defenses shut him down, the Jets will be lucky to win 6 games.

Simply not true Bugg.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/player/splits/2004/1132

[Bugg]

Don't dispute the numbers. Doesn't change the fact that Martin was less effective late in games, especially in big games like the playoffs. There's a world of difference between pounding the FIns to rack up stats and doing it when it matters.

[GimmeShelter]

Don't dispute the numbers. Doesn't change the fact that Martin was less effective late in games, especially in big games like the playoffs. There's a world of difference between pounding the FIns to rack up stats and doing it when it matters.

Usually I agree with you Bugg but not this time as we are not changing any of the "facts" you mention.

Martin had better numbers late in games.

[Bugg]

Crawled around the numbers a bit. In wins, and against lesser defenses-Cards, Bengals, Browns, Texans, the defenseless and indoor Rams, Niners, Seawhawks and Fins-he averaged 4.9 yards per carry. In losses vs. good teams-Bills/3.5, Pats/3.1, Steelers3.0, Ravens/4.3 and Chargers/3.7-he averaged less than his average per carry of 4.6. In the playoffs he was hardly dominating-3.8 per. In fact, he was arguably a better receiver and Jordan was a more effective runner.

I'm not disputing that Martin can and will be a productive back. But he's hardly been dominant and even less so when it matters.

Holmes is a good prodcutive feature back like Martin.And if you plugged him in and used him the way Hackett used Martin the production would be as good and may be better than Martin's.

[PatsFanTX]

I'm not disputing that Martin can and will be a productive back. But he's hardly been dominant and even less so when it matters.

So the Jets had the NFL's leading rusher, won the OT coin toss to receive versus the Steelers, and then gave the NFL's leading rusher 1 carry in that entire drive.

Those are the type of situations where a dominating RB can put your team in position to win.

[GimmeShelter]

So the Jets had the NFL's leading rusher, won the OT coin toss to receive versus the Steelers, and then gave the NFL's leading rusher 1 carry in that entire drive.

Those are the type of situations where a dominating RB can put your team in position to win.

Really? Previously you used that drive as ammo against Pennington and/or Herm.......see a pattern in your posts?

Bugg...good defenses are supposed to slow your RB down....always have, always will. Martin against Pitt had pretty much the same yds in the play-off game as Dillon.

Whatever, this subject been discussed to the point of being beaten to death before and we will never all agree.

Tx no ill will. New material needed that's all.

[TomShane]

I think Tex makes a great point, actually. We got the ball with a chance to win, the league's leading (statistical) rusher, and the Jets didn't think they could move the ball on the ground late in a brutal playoff game where everyone was sucking wind. If that's not an indictment of Martin, I don't know what is.

[GimmeShelter]

I think Tex makes a great point, actually. We got the ball with a chance to win, the league's leading (statistical) rusher, and the Jets didn't think they could move the ball on the ground late in a brutal playoff game where everyone was sucking wind. If that's not an indictment of Martin, I don't know what is.

Or your OC.

[PatsFanTX]

Or your OC.

Ah, the good ole Hackett excuse again.

[GimmeShelter]

Ah, the good ole Hackett excuse again.

No excuse you can spin 7 ways to Sunday on why the Jets lost.

[Bugg]

Gimme-

Good running backs-HoF running backs-take over those big games. Riggins in the Super Bowl, Emmitt Smith running roughshod over the Jints with a division title on the line with a seperated shoulder, Franco Harris every year of his career. All 3 of those guys had careers very comparable to martin. But Martin other than a solid effort vs. the Jags in 1998 has never had a big signature type game. And those guys were also facing good defenses. In 2 playoff games this past season, the Jets blew 4TH quarter leads in no small part exactly because their supposed HoF back COULDN'T take the game over and run down an opponent's throat to run out the clock. Good defenses my hiney.

Again, he will still be effective and productive. But -repeat after me-

COMPILING ISN'T DOMINATING.

[Barton]

I agree bugg, in the 4th quarter against good teams Martin has been anything but good

I still think some of that has to do with Hackett being so damn conservative. Opposing defenses just stack the box and stuff Martin. He's pretty much hopepless against a good defense if we dont have a vertical attack. That can be said for just about any runner.

Curtis is a pretty good back, I dont think he is top 5.

Sometimes he REALLY pisses me off. In the open field he becomes too patient and waiting for blocks instead of turning the Jets on and just gliding by defenders every which way like really good backs do.

An example was I think against san diego and pittsburgh in the playoffs.....dumpoff to martin, plenty of room to run free. what does he do? He waits for Pete Kendalls fat ass to cue a block so he get a few extra yards instead of just running free to the endzone. Now sometimes his patience for blocks works good, but in the open field he needs to turn on the Jets like he did against cincy and miami when he just blew by the opposing teams DBs on route to a large gain and a touchdown.

[RSJ]

Gimme-

Good running backs-HoF running backs-take over those big games. Riggins in the Super Bowl, Emmitt Smith running roughshod over the Jints with a division title on the line with a seperated shoulder, Franco Harris every year of his career. All 3 of those guys had careers very comparable to martin. But Martin other than a solid effort vs. the Jags in 1998 has never had a big signature type game. And those guys were also facing good defenses. In 2 playoff games this past season, the Jets blew 4TH quarter leads in no small part exactly because their supposed HoF back COULDN'T take the game over and run down an opponent's throat to run out the clock. Good defenses my hiney.

Again, he will still be effective and productive. But -repeat after me-

COMPILING ISN'T DOMINATING.

Martin was dominating vs pitt in 1996. But not in a Jet uni in a big game.

[PatsFanTX]

Gimme-

Good running backs-HoF running backs-take over those big games. Riggins in the Super Bowl, Emmitt Smith running roughshod over the Jints with a division title on the line with a seperated shoulder, Franco Harris every year of his career. All 3 of those guys had careers very comparable to martin. But Martin other than a solid effort vs. the Jags in 1998 has never had a big signature type game. And those guys were also facing good defenses. In 2 playoff games this past season, the Jets blew 4TH quarter leads in no small part exactly because their supposed HoF back COULDN'T take the game over and run down an opponent's throat to run out the clock. Good defenses my hiney.

Again, he will still be effective and productive. But -repeat after me-

COMPLILING ISN'T DOMINATING.

Now that was a good post.

[Illis McBreakfree 21]

Sorry, just watched NFL Network Game of The Week Jets/Steelers AFC Divisional Game

I am pathetic. I couldnt even eat while I was watching this nightmare all over again and I swear that each time I see Doug Brien line up for his 2nd field goal at the end of the game he'll make it. Ok, maybe not, but damn that was such a pathetic kick by brien. booted it like 50 yards left PATHETIC LITTLE ELF!!

Oh yea if you think thats bad...try being a Bills fan!

[Warfish]

Hermy was responsible for losing that game.

Not Doug Brien.

Correct, sadly. If memory serves, didn;t Herm have Chad kneel the previous play, losing about two or three yards, when Brien was already going to be kicking at his limit??

In any case, I think those two lost yards are what cost us that game. Even a bad run up the middle would have likley gained a yard or two. So instead, we lose two, and Brien kicks it 6 inches too short.

Blame is a funny thing.....it's easy to throw around, but there is always PLENTY to share.