The Debate is over! Concrete reason why Clemens will be starter!

[PeterNorth09]

"If he CONTINUES to suck in camp"....Is this something that you just said to make your point credible or is clemens actually sucking in camp?

I ask because there's been no reports or any threads made about clemens sucking in camp last year that I've seen. And if im correct, camp hasnt started yet this year so where did that come from?

He was talking about how Clemens played last season. Clemens looked great in pre-season because he was throwing bombs to Justin McCareins who was torching 2nd and 3rd string scrubs who are now bagging groceries. Then the regular season happened.

Best man should win the starting job. Jets are actually in a good position b/c they have two qb's that could at the very least game-manage this team to a minimum of 9 wins with next season's schedule.

[SouthernJet]

He was talking about how Clemens played last season. Clemens looked great in pre-season because he was throwing bombs to Justin McCareins who was torching 2nd and 3rd string scrubs who are now bagging groceries. Then the regular season happened.

Best man should win the starting job. Jets are actually in a good position b/c they have two qb's that could at the very least game-manage this team to a minimum of 9 wins with next season's schedule.

great point.

make up of this team means a 'manager' QB could do quite well...

[BroadwayJoe12]

"If he CONTINUES to suck in camp"....Is this something that you just said to make your point credible or is clemens actually sucking in camp?

I ask because there's been no reports or any threads made about clemens sucking in camp last year that I've seen. And if im correct, camp hasnt started yet this year so where did that come from?

Exactly.. Actually the opposite is true, clemens lit it up last year during camps and preseason.

[BwanaZulia]

Is that why they went back to Pennington at the end of the year even though Mangini claims Clemens was healthy?

Yeah, might as well through Kellen, your possible future QB into a game that doesn't mean anything to get him hurt.

If anything, putting in Chad was a sign that Kellen is the QB of the future.

BZ

[jetfuel]

I agree 100%. Clemens deserves a slight nod because he's (hopefully) on the upswing and Pennington has almost certainly played his best football. Nobody should have the job outright.

Question on that meaningless subject: If Clemens was benched for Pennington due to poor play, doesn't that mean that Pennington was benched for Clemens three times? Once due to injury (week1NE&Bal) and twice due to ineffectiveness (Buf&KC)?

I will not disagree that Pennington was AWFUL last year. I wanted him benched and Clemens to be the man and I think of Chad as one of the toughest Jets I have ever seen as far as persistence, leadership, and fighting through injuries. I also think Chad is a much better QB than he is given credit for by Jets fans. I was disgusted when those morons cheered him getting injured last year. But I was all for Clemens taking charge. I didn't see that. I also don't want to kill Clemens off of last year. He showed some good stuff. My problem is that overall he didn't show me the vision needed to be the QB. Arm strength is wonderful but you have to have the head for it above all else. Maybe it was the poor playcalling and the horrendous O-Line. I am more than willing to give them both a pass on that matter. If you noticed, a few of Kellen's INT's were eerily similar to those 4th Quarter killers by Chad last year. Those floaty out patterns that get jumped. Either the WR's don't fit that play, always screw up the route, or Schotty needs to junk that one. Anyway, let's see them fight it out. I know Chad has the heart and the will. Let's see if Kellen does too. I know he can throw the sh&* out of the ball ... that's for sure. I'm a Jets fan so if Kellen wins the job I will be rooting for him to succeed regardless of my opinion. I trust Mangini and Mr. T. They made some miscalculations last year and it was miserable but I think they know what they're doing in the big picture. I also love that they drafted Ainge when they got him. He can be a possibility in a year or two as well.

[#27TheDominator]

"If he CONTINUES to suck in camp"....Is this something that you just said to make your point credible or is clemens actually sucking in camp?

I ask because there's been no reports or any threads made about clemens sucking in camp last year that I've seen. And if im correct, camp hasnt started yet this year so where did that come from?

Exactly.. Actually the opposite is true, clemens lit it up last year during camps and preseason.

Guess you guys didn't understand. PeterNorth got it. Clemens sucked last season. He had one of the lowest QB ratings of the decade. I don't care about last preseason. I'm worried about if he carries last season's sucking into camp. In case you didn't know, this year's camp didn't start yet. They just had offseason workouts and rookie mini-camp. Clemens hasn't thrown a ball in anger in 2008.

[jetfuel]

it's funny that almost everyone on this board (including me) would have benched Eli manning well before their playoff run. Probably right around the time that he threw 4 picks and no TD's in week 10 or 11.

It's easy to be critical of him but he was a first year starter, if eli can turn into a game manager that takes a few shots downfield every game, then so can Kellen. Maybe i'm overly confident but i think Kellen will be a solid QB for us.

I hope you're right. I am interested to see Clemens with the revamped Offense. Personally I may be leaning towards Chad but I'd love to see Kellen light it up and win the job.

[jcord1786]

This is a comment that I quoted from "Dirtstar" from Jetsinsider.com. This is the most compelling and thought out "logical" reason why Clemens will be starting this year.

Here you go.

You wanted a legit debate, so here it is: Chad and Clemens both played under the same set of horrible circumstances in 2007 -- why is that those horrible conditions can excuse Chad's poor play as an 8-year veteran, but not Kellen's as a first-time starter? why is it unfair to criticize Chad for his horrible decision-making, but it's OK to pass judgement on Clemens after only 7 games? why can you criticize Clemens' pocket presence, even when you acknowledge he was running for his life, but fail to mention how poised he looked in the 4th quarter against the Ravens or throughout the Redskins game?

then you go on to say that Clemens' 3 wins should be dismissed on the assertion that the "defense actually won those games." while i will grant you that the defense improved after the Bye week, you also have to admit that Clemens never played with a healthy Coles/Cotchery tandem -- and you have said repeatedly how important offensive playmakers are to a QB's success, so i'm assuming that applies to Clemens as well as Chad.

back to the Jets' 3 wins with Clemens: NOT ONE POINT in those games was scored by the defense/special teams. in fact, the ONLY time that the Jets scored a non-offensive TD with Clemens as the QB was a kickoff return by Leon against the Redskins, a game which the Jets lost. so yeah, the defense may have improved, but someone still had to go out and put the points on the board. Kellen Clemens lead the Jets' offense to more victories and more points per game than Chad, despite the lack of the abovementioned playmakers (which, again, you say are very important to a QBs success).

Chad, on the other hand received very valuable contributions from the special teams/defense. the Jets' lone victory with Chad at the helm came against the Juggernaut Miami Dolphins, and he can thank a Leon Washington kickoff return for that one. Chad's offense also got help in the game against the Giants, from Kerry Rhodes (fumble return) and Leon again (kickoff return). alas, Chad also tossed TWO fourth-quarter interceptions, one of which was returned for a TD, that essentially put the game away. speaking of which, Chad also threw game-ending INTs against Buffalo and against the Bengals, and generally looked dreadful when running the 2-minute drill.

i find it curious that in this regard, the young inexperienced QB with a "lack of pocket presence" showed far more poise and success than the veteran Captain Intangibles. Clemens, however, lead two last-minute, game-tying drives against top-10 defenses (Wash, Pitt), and two OT game-winning drives. and that's without going into the Baltimore game or OT of the Washington game, because i'm trying to steer clear of the "what ifs."

so there you have it. you wanted a debate? the above is why i think that, given that they played under the same horrible QB conditions, and given that Clemens produced more wins, more PPG, and played better in clutch situations, there is a compelling case as to why Kellen Clemens should be the Jets starting QB in '08.

After all that, can't we just let them battle it out in training camp when they both will have the SAME set of circumstances? Try & trust Mangini to make the right decision for the team.

[BwanaZulia]

Doesn't matter who starts, the chances of making it all the way through the season with one QB are very very low. 1/3 shot.

BZ

[jetfuel]

Guess you guys didn't understand. PeterNorth got it. Clemens sucked last season. He had one of the lowest QB ratings of the decade. I don't care about last preseason. I'm worried about if he carries last season's sucking into camp. In case you didn't know, this year's camp didn't start yet. They just had offseason workouts and rookie mini-camp. Clemens hasn't thrown a ball in anger in 2008.

It got so bad with Chad and Kellen that I found myself wanting them to throw Tui out there a few times last year. That emotion scared the sh^% out of me. I hope I never feel that way again. It was traumatic to say the least.

[Bob]

More Clemens ball-washing.

[BwanaZulia]

It got so bad with Chad and Kellen that I found myself wanting them to throw Tui out there a few times last year. That emotion scared the sh^% out of me. I hope I never feel that way again. It was traumatic to say the least.

Yeah, how many games in before we start hearing the "Er--IK!.. Errr... IK!" chant?

BZ

[jetfuel]

Yeah, how many games in before we start hearing the "Er--IK!.. Errr... IK!" chant?

BZ

I like Ainge actually. He's a guy who improved each year and think he may be a find. I'd rather wait til '09 to find out though. Let him learn the pro game first. But seriously, I hope we are not chanting that in '08.

[villain_the_foe]

How can anyone actually want us to field a QB whose average completion is under 10 yards (including yards after the catch) and who threw for under 200 yards in 14 of his last 23 games?

The

Jets

do

not

score

points

with

Pennington

as

the

QB.

WOW!!! that was a stat that I didnt even know. I mean, you see it on a weekly basis when you see Chad's stats and he throws for 186yds 0 TDs and 1 Int. But to know that when you play a total of 32 games in 2 seasons and from his last 23 games, 14 of those games he has thrown for under 200yrds is just a stat for the ages. Think about this.

16 games in a regular season and Chad just went an entire season WITHOUT throwing the ball for more than 200 yards per game.

We have many Jet fans saying that this dude should start over Clemens yet if Tom Brady would have displayed stats like that (an entire season worth of games without reaching the 200+ yard passing mark). We would be all over this site and the Pats site talking about how Sh_tty their QB is etc.

That statisical fact is a huge problem. bigger than just those 14 games, Chads career stats for yards per game are even under 200ypg. a respectable QB averages atleast 220-225 yds per game minimum and an Star QB averages 230ypg or better. CHad is 199 in 8 complete seasons. Twice in his 8 completed years has he reached over 3000 yards passing for a season, the higest being a little over 3,300 yards for that year.

In Peyton Mannings career for example, His lowest output for a season passing was 3,700 Passing yards which he had done only twice. Every year he's a 4,000+ yard QB.

This is Chads 9th season and I doubt that Chad has the talent (we already know he doesnt have the arm) to throw, better yet, EVER THROW for more than 3,500 yards in a season.

I wouldnt say that its the talent around him either. Peyton can come to this team right now and by years end have 3,500+ yards for the season (I'll take away 200 yards form his lowest out ever and give him just 3,500 given lack of chemistry).

Thats still more than what Chad has ever done. For a 31 year old QB that has only hit 3,300 yards in a season once and he's been in the league for almost a decade. I say its time to give the young gunner a start.

The only problem I see is that the Jets paid Pennington so much money for no reason. Just sit his ass down.

[villain_the_foe]

Is that why they went back to Pennington at the end of the year even though Mangini claims Clemens was healthy?

Mangini claimed that alot of people were healthy and they werent. He simply doesnt like to tell the media about injuries to players. He did the same this with coles last year right?

[jcord1786]

Either way, none of that means anything right now. Clemens was not given the starting job for 2008 as of yet. I haven't heard any ringing endorsements either. You also need to take into account that Mangini likes to use the injury list to his advantage so there is no way of saying that that is entirely accurate. Again though, it doesn't matter right now. You're right that if neither of them play better this year is gonna blow. May the best man win the job and lead the team to as many wins as possible this year.

EXACTLY. This will be decided in training camp. Everyone has their favorite, I am personally rooting for CHAD ALL THE WAY. But if Kellen beats Chad out obviously in training camp, I will support him because I trust that Mangini and the team think he gives us a better chance at winning each week.

[jetfuel]

Mangini claimed that alot of people were healthy and they werent. He simply doesnt like to tell the media about injuries to players. He did the same this with coles last year right?

Not the same thing. If Pennington went down in that game Clemens was going in. He was the #2 for that game. If he was healthy enough for that he could have played. Regardless, it really doesn't matter now. It's a new season and I don't remember Mangini announcing a starting QB in the offseason to this point. I will be rooting for whoever is the starting QB when that time comes. None of us make that choice and we can just argue forever about it for nothing.

[villain_the_foe]

Chad sucked in 2007 but has had better years. There were years like 2002 when Chad was great.

Kellen Clemens has not had any better years than last year. And he was mediocre at best. At worst he sucked s--t. And we can blame Adrien Clarke but the truth is amazing players excel regardless of their supporting cast, clemens isn't amazing.

so what we are left with are two manager types, neither superstar QBs, neither franchise QBs.

Chad's resume is better and the Jets are built to win now.

All this being said Kellen Clemens will get every chance to win the job, and he should win it.

But if he doesn't, I don't want to hear crap from the Clemens fan-boys. This guy embarassed the franchise on Thanksgiving national TV, he has what, 3 wins total? If he can't beat Chad out in a preseason training camp competition then he's worthless. As much as everyone hates Chad, that much must be agreed upon. If Chad is crap and Kellen can't beat out crap, what does that make Kellen?

Chad sucked in 2007 but has had better years. There were years like 2002 when Chad was great.

Kellen Clemens has not had any better years than last year. And he was mediocre at best. At worst he sucked s--t. And we can blame Adrien Clarke but the truth is amazing players excel regardless of their supporting cast, clemens isn't amazing.

so what we are left with are two manager types, neither superstar QBs, neither franchise QBs.

Chad's resume is better and the Jets are built to win now.

All this being said Kellen Clemens will get every chance to win the job, and he should win it.

But if he doesn't, I don't want to hear crap from the Clemens fan-boys. This guy embarassed the franchise on Thanksgiving national TV, he has what, 3 wins total? If he can't beat Chad out in a preseason training camp competition then he's worthless. As much as everyone hates Chad, that much must be agreed upon. If Chad is crap and Kellen can't beat out crap, what does that make Kellen?

You see, this is the stupid sh-t that I be talking about on this website. You just said Chad and Great in the same sentence. Chad was what??????, Great in 2002?

Look at Chad Penningtons stats for 2002....is that really GREAT?

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 NYJ NFL 15 399 275 68.9 3120 7.82 22 6 22 135 104.2

The only thing that is great about these stats is the INT's and that he was only sacked 22 times that season which meant that he was protected. so THESE ARE THE NUMBERS CHAD IS PUTTING UP WHEN HE'S PROTECTED IN THE POCKET. If you think that his 2002 season was great then Ima show you something that will be completely out of this world to you.

Peyton Manning (2002 stats)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 IND NFL 16 591 392 66.3 4200 7.11 27 19 23 145 93.7

Rich Gannon (MVP in 2002 because of his GREAT numbers)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 OAK NFL 16 618 418 67.6 4689 7.59 26 10 36 214 97.3

There's a difference between being Great and just having the best season of your professional career. Remember that.

[villain_the_foe]

He was talking about how Clemens played last season. Clemens looked great in pre-season because he was throwing bombs to Justin McCareins who was torching 2nd and 3rd string scrubs who are now bagging groceries. Then the regular season happened.

Best man should win the starting job. Jets are actually in a good position b/c they have two qb's that could at the very least game-manage this team to a minimum of 9 wins with next season's schedule.

Trust me, Woody would not think that after spending 200 million dollars this offseason that having the thought of the two qb's that we have right now can turn 200 mill to a 9 win season as being a "good position" to be in.

[#27TheDominator]

You see, this is the stupid sh-t that I be talking about on this website. You just said Chad and Great in the same sentence. Chad was what??????, Great in 2002?

Look at Chad Penningtons stats for 2002....is that really GREAT?

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 NYJ NFL 15 399 275 68.9 3120 7.82 22 6 22 135 104.2

The only thing that is great about these stats is the INT's and that he was only sacked 22 times that season which meant that he was protected. so THESE ARE THE NUMBERS CHAD IS PUTTING UP WHEN HE'S PROTECTED IN THE POCKET. If you think that his 2002 season was great then Ima show you something that will be completely out of this world to you.

Peyton Manning (2002 stats)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 IND NFL 16 591 392 66.3 4200 7.11 27 19 23 145 93.7

Rich Gannon (MVP in 2002 because of his GREAT numbers)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 OAK NFL 16 618 418 67.6 4689 7.59 26 10 36 214 97.3

There's a difference between being Great and just having the best season of your professional career. Remember that.

If a QB has to put up Peyton Manning numbers to make you happy you are going to be sorely disappointed with the Jets QB play in '08. 2002 was a great season. A pro bowl worthy season. You could argue that Pennington's 2002 was better than the other two you cited. His yardage was down, but so were his attempts. The formatting is way off, but Chad a had higher completion percentage, more yards per attempt and better td/int ratio. That makes more sense than saying a guy was better because he threw for more yardage in nearly double the attempts.

[villain_the_foe]

Yeah, might as well through Kellen, your possible future QB into a game that doesn't mean anything to get him hurt.

If anything, putting in Chad was a sign that Kellen is the QB of the future.

BZ

Didnt think of it that way. it was already a lost season. Great point BZ.

[jetfuel]

You see, this is the stupid sh-t that I be talking about on this website. You just said Chad and Great in the same sentence. Chad was what??????, Great in 2002?

Look at Chad Penningtons stats for 2002....is that really GREAT?

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 NYJ NFL 15 399 275 68.9 3120 7.82 22 6 22 135 104.2

The only thing that is great about these stats is the INT's and that he was only sacked 22 times that season which meant that he was protected. so THESE ARE THE NUMBERS CHAD IS PUTTING UP WHEN HE'S PROTECTED IN THE POCKET. If you think that his 2002 season was great then Ima show you something that will be completely out of this world to you.

Peyton Manning (2002 stats)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 IND NFL 16 591 392 66.3 4200 7.11 27 19 23 145 93.7

Rich Gannon (MVP in 2002 because of his GREAT numbers)

year team league games ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT 2002 OAK NFL 16 618 418 67.6 4689 7.59 26 10 36 214 97.3

There's a difference between being Great and just having the best season of your professional career. Remember that.

Not for nothing but the two guys you picked had 200 more pass attempts each than Chad did and the only clear difference is in yards. If you want to go on numbers alone Chad had the best year of those three.

By the way, those are GREAT numbers for a QB for Chad that year. I don't know why you'd use this as your point. He also had a better QB rating than both, a better YPA and completion % than both of them.

[villain_the_foe]

More Clemens ball-washing.

Well if it was ball washing then atleast his has a more potential winning aftertaste.

Sorry about that fellas. lmao.

[BwanaZulia]

Didnt think of it that way. it was already a lost season. Great point BZ.

Thanks!

(Highlighted for easy reading!)

BZ

[bitonti]

There's a difference between being Great and just having the best season of your professional career. Remember that.

yeah i agree - Clemens best season was 2007. And he isn't Great. In fact he looks like he sucks. Nice post.

[villain_the_foe]

If a QB has to put up Peyton Manning numbers to make you happy you are going to be sorely disappointed with the Jets QB play in '08. 2002 was a great season. A pro bowl worthy season. You could argue that Pennington's 2002 was better than the other two you cited. His yardage was down, but so were his attempts. The formatting is way off, but Chad a had higher completion percentage, more yards per attempt and better td/int ratio. That makes more sense than saying a guy was better because he threw for more yardage in nearly double the attempts.

Im not saying that our QB's have to be peyton manning...IM just saying that sometimes it takes a QB to throw 300+ yards in a game to win it, especially a Jets game.

Like it takes sometimes for a running back to gain 150+ yards to win a game sometimes.

People get on Thomas Jones for not being what we expected him to be, yet we find every reason in the world to give a QB with almost a decade under his belt a chance to be what we thought he should have been. After 8 seasons I think we should get the point. Chad Pennington is the Stephon Marbury of the New York Jets. He's in the most crucial position but he's not a "starter". Chad Pennington is the NBA's equivalent to a "6th man". He's that bench player that when you put in the game you're comfortable BECAUSE he can manage a football game and compete. None the less, he is a back up QB.

Im beyond the playoffs with this organization. Im thinking superbowl. The past 10 years there have been teams that either won the superbowl or atleast appeared that we didnt even consider a contender during that year (New England's 02, Atlanta 99, Giants just last year, chicago bears 07, Rams 00, etc).

None of these teams had a QB with a resume as long as Chads at the time they entered the superbowl except the Falcons (Chris Chandler) which, though they had a very good year that year they werent even supposed to be in the superbowl if it wasnt for a missed field goal by the Vikings kicker. That was the Year of the "Randy Moss" era begining. Atlanta also got there ass handed to them in the superbowl that year by Elway....a star QB.

All im saying is that Chad isnt going to get "better" at this stage of his career. We need to get Kellen in there and get him some experience but more importantly, getting the team experience with kellen.

This team has a 6 year chemistry with Chad....the biggest feat was a playoff blowout of the colts, which history has shown that the colts Defense has a history of letting the team down in the playoffs....yet THEY eventually got a ring.

This isnt a situation of weather Chad or Kellen is better, its a situation of getting a potential QB of the future in there. when you have a 31 year old QB starting for you, its because he's your franchise QB and he can win you games. If you have a 31 year old QB that can only do what chad has done then the only smart thing for a front office to do is give the newly 200 million dollar team to a QB that has the potential you drafted him for.

[villain_the_foe]

Not for nothing but the two guys you picked had 200 more pass attempts each than Chad did and the only clear difference is in yards. If you want to go on numbers alone Chad had the best year of those three.

By the way, those are GREAT numbers for a QB for Chad that year. I don't know why you'd use this as your point. He also had a better QB rating than both, a better YPA and completion % than both of them.

You just said that if you go on "numbers" that Chad had the best year of Peyton and Rich Gannon which was the MVP of that year, yet right before that you stated that they both had 200 more pass attempts then Chad. Okay, lets go by the numbers....the numbers that you DIDNT state.

Yes, they both had 200 more passing attempts then Chad, but Petyton completed 117 more passes than chad and Rich completed 143 more passes than chad.

Rich Completed more passes then Chad even attempted

Chad 399 attempts

Rich 418 completions

Peyton 392 Completions.

Peyton and Rich had more passing yards.

Chad 3182 yds

Peyton 4200 yds 1080 more yds.

Rich 4689 yds 1569 more yds.

Yes, Chad had the least Ints.

Chad 6 Int's

Peyton 19 Int's

Rich 10Int's.

however, if you look at the passing production of both Peyton and Rich then you'll see why Its so great that with all that production Chad only 13 less Int's then Peyton and only 4 Less than Rich yet Rich was voted MVP and Chad wasnt even in the running for MVP that year. There was NO WAY that chad penningtons year "by the numbers" was better than those guys that year.

Im going to say it again....please read below.

There's a big difference between having a great year and just having the best year of your career.

furthermore: He had a great year for a player who came off the bench. A year to remember, but it wasnt a "great" year...it was a very good year at best; and whats worse is that he only had a year like that once in an entire decade of playing football. He won the starting job and never lived up to that stature again. In otherwords...he never had a "very good" year again. Its a shame when we have to think of how "very good" our QB was almost 7 years ago. That my friend is a hardcore fact.

[Arsis]

A) Jets aren't built to win now, if they are whomever built them to win now did a lousy job. I say the jets are built to be mediocre now and win in a year or two.

Chad's past, resume and one fluke half a season in 02 means nothing, weak-armed injury prone QB's do not magically get better with age.

C) I don't know if you watched the games or not, but Kellen did much better than chad did with a worse team(injured receivers and such).

D)Even if the Jets are built to win now, Chad has proven that he is not capable of winning jack****. The only team he beat last year was the dolfags, and he only barely beat them.

[wildthing2022000]

Why are you guys fighting? He said the debate is over so there should of been no more debating right?

[villain_the_foe]

A) Jets aren't built to win now, if they are whomever built them to win now did a lousy job. I say the jets are built to be mediocre now and win in a year or two.

Chad's past, resume and one fluke half a season in 02 means nothing, weak-armed injury prone QB's do not magically get better with age.

C) I don't know if you watched the games or not, but Kellen did much better than chad did with a worse team(injured receivers and such).

D)Even if the Jets are built to win now, Chad has proven that he is not capable of winning jack****. The only team he beat last year was the dolfags, and he only barely beat them.

You cant tell these people that. They think that Chad is like vintage fine wine. He only gets better with age, jumpshots for passes rotator cuff surgeries. :superman:Just look at him go!

[shawn306]

OMG !!!!

I almost forgot. It's a new month. Time for the monthly Chad vs Clemens debate.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[L.I.MikeBleedsGreen]

OMG !!!!

I almost forgot. It's a new month. Time for the monthly Chad vs Clemens debate.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

haha wake up Shawn ,Chad has been in the weight room and his arm is stronger now then it has been in 7 years .Kellen doesn't stand a chance now, Look out in 08 guys.

Chad is Great!!

[villain_the_foe]

Why are you guys fighting? He said the debate is over so there should of been no more debating right?

I did say that but I really didnt mean it. I want to debate. I want to see what my fellow Jet lovers think about this team and the Capt'n(s) leading this ship.

The debate is weather to go with chad and guarantee a 9-7 season, or go into the unknown and possibly have a 11-5 season or 5-11 season with Kellen. I personally feel that a 9-7 chad season for the amount of time and money we've put into him is equal to or worse than a 5-11 possible season that we could get from a still unknown kellen Clemens. Im willing to see the Jets take that chance of getting the first 11+ win season since my existence and I was born in 1980 and discovered/been a fan since 93.

Having Chad Start will make the contract renegotiation of Coles useless, keeping cotchery useless, drafting a TE in the first round look like another stupid front office 1st round blooper, Make Chris Baker look right falsefully (not saying that he IS right or wrong), keeping the running game under massive pressure and letting the safeties know on the opposing teams that they really dont have to come to work that day.

[jetfuel]

You just said that if you go on "numbers" that Chad had the best year of Peyton and Rich Gannon which was the MVP of that year, yet right before that you stated that they both had 200 more pass attempts then Chad. Okay, lets go by the numbers....the numbers that you DIDNT state.

Yes, they both had 200 more passing attempts then Chad, but Petyton completed 117 more passes than chad and Rich completed 143 more passes than chad.

Rich Completed more passes then Chad even attempted

Chad 399 attempts

Rich 418 completions

Peyton 392 Completions.

Peyton and Rich had more passing yards.

Chad 3182 yds

Peyton 4200 yds 1080 more yds.

Rich 4689 yds 1569 more yds.

Yes, Chad had the least Ints.

Chad 6 Int's

Peyton 19 Int's

Rich 10Int's.

however, if you look at the passing production of both Peyton and Rich then you'll see why Its so great that with all that production Chad only 13 less Int's then Peyton and only 4 Less than Rich yet Rich was voted MVP and Chad wasnt even in the running for MVP that year. There was NO WAY that chad penningtons year "by the numbers" was better than those guys that year.

Im going to say it again....please read below.

There's a big difference between having a great year and just having the best year of your career.

furthermore: He had a great year for a player who came off the bench. A year to remember, but it wasnt a "great" year...it was a very good year at best; and whats worse is that he only had a year like that once in an entire decade of playing football. He won the starting job and never lived up to that stature again. In otherwords...he never had a "very good" year again. Its a shame when we have to think of how "very good" our QB was almost 7 years ago. That my friend is a hardcore fact.

What exactly is your argument here? It's Chad's fault that the Jets didn't pass as much? How am I to be impressed by more completions when Chad's % was higher? If you want to argue just don't use that year's stats as your evidence. You better have more yards and completions if you pass it 200 more times. You can argue from the last 6 years but the stats you are giving here do not favor your argument.

[jetfuel]

haha wake up Shawn ,Chad has been in the weight room and his arm is stronger now then it has been in 7 years .Kellen doesn't stand a chance now, Look out in 08 guys.

Chad is Great!!

Just remember that Browning Nagle had a cannon arm himself. Not saying Clemens is going to be that bad but arm strength is overrated. Let's hope that he can do more than throw hard passes.