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The Debate is over! Concrete reason why Clemens will be starter!


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If Clemens plays like he did last year, no one wants him and have hardly taken that position. I'd rather go with Daunte Culpepper or Byron Leftwich than Pennington. He's a has-been who was a once-was in 2002, who still throws too many picks even with his low-risk/low-reward type of passes.

I guess unfortunately for you Leftwich and Culpepper are not on the Jets roster. I can't say I share your disappointment on that though. No matter what there should be improvement at QB just from the signings of Faneca, Woody, Franks, and Richardson helping to provide protection and a running game. With that in mind, I'm happy with the QB's we have and I'm looking forward to seeing what each can do with the new pieces in place. Whoever wins it out is who I will support.

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Nope, he was hurt and did not practice all week. He was limited in practice the entire week (Wed, Thurs, Fri) leading up to the KC game. He obviously wasn't ready to play against Tenn. Thanks for maki

This is a comment that I quoted from "Dirtstar" from Jetsinsider.com. This is the most compelling and thought out "logical" reason why Clemens will be starting this year. Here you go. You

lol You are doing the ultimate backpedaling. You said "Chad was right up there with the league leaders in passing before he hurt his shoulder and ruined his career." Then it was shown

If Clemens plays like he did last year, no one wants him and have hardly taken that position. I'd rather go with Daunte Culpepper or Byron Leftwich than Pennington. He's a has-been who was a once-was in 2002, who still throws too many picks even with his low-risk/low-reward type of passes.

So you'd rather go with even more injury prone has beens???

Leftwich is actually more of a never was.

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Clemens has one year to prove himself, right now Pennington is just insurance. If Clemens has even a "alright" season, look for us to get a either draft a QB or bring in a vet.

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So you'd rather go with even more injury prone has beens???

Leftwich is actually more of a never was.

What does it matter what Chad Pennington was like before two shoulder surgeries? If we're going to suck him off for the 2002 season then we should bring in Rich Gannon who was the league MVP that year.

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What does it matter what Chad Pennington was like before two shoulder surgeries? If we're going to suck him off for the 2002 season then we should bring in Rich Gannon who was the league MVP that year.

Don't you remember nine pages ago? Pennington had a better year than the MVP in '02.

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What does it matter what Chad Pennington was like before two shoulder surgeries? If we're going to suck him off for the 2002 season then we should bring in Rich Gannon who was the league MVP that year.

I'm just saying that no matter how bad of a QB you think Pennington is now he's not any worse off than Byron Leftwich.

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And for the guy who started this thread you wrote:

While no points were scored directly by the D/STs but they sure set up alot of points including the GW FG against Pitt. Clemens had 162 yards passing in that game and 56 of those yards came on that flea flicker which he underthrewand the Jets 2nd FG to put them up 13-7 was set up by a Rhodes INT at midfield.

Against Miami the D created FIVE turnovers while KC had a fumble that Miami returned for a TD and another INT.

The game against the Chiefs was a joke, both teams stunk and Clemens led us to 10 points in regulation against an awful team.

Clemens stunk as did Chad, they still both have the potnetial to be alot better in 2008 andn we'll need them to be. My problem w/ Clemens was he didn't get better at all as the season progressed, he didn't show any sign of improvement but what he did show that I liked was that he could forget an awful play, an awful qtr, an awful 3 qtrs and help us tie or win a game late. That quality I really like. I hope both guys play great this summer and the decision is very difficult, we have a team around them that should be a playoff contender again and alot will depend on the play of the QB.

With all that you said, it didnt disprove what I said. The Defense or special teams didnt put points on the board. All the extra words just now was just gibberish, something to type thats all. Defense and Special teams always help out the offense with field position, but if their not scoring then its just that. It'll still take the qb to do the job then, which clemens did...and when he didnt it was because of WR's dropping touchdown passes.

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In 2002 he had an outstanding 75% of a season.

In 2003...injured; in his half season he was worse than in 2002.

In 2004 he was much worse than 2002 and was also worse than 2003 (except for one '03 Patriots game when his dumbass coach announced to the planet that Chad will be throwing downfield all game).

In 2005...injured.

In 2006 he was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

In 2007 he was much worse than 2006, which was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

Is that your idea of:

(a) getting better

(B) staying exactly the same

© getting worse

Even if he stays healthy, which is a longshot, he blows. If he played for any other team all we'd read here is about how crappy he is.

And that int vs the Colts was a killer and it was absolutely on Chad. Bad playcalling or not, if this "smart" QB is not smart enough to audible out of that after seeing what the defense was doing, then he brings nothing to the table, because he's not out there because of his wonderful right arm. He also could have thrown it away and pinned Indy at their 2 or wherever we were. Pretty sure we were inside the 5 but I'm not looking it up.

I am not interested in what he once was 6 seasons ago. Rich Gannon was the MVP 6 seasons ago. In 2004 he beat a bunch of chump teams & Pennington's sucky backup did at least as well as Pennington did. Who cares what he would have been "if he didn't hurt his shoulder" as you put it?

He chokes in games.

When he makes a bad play, it is obvious that he cannot get it out of his head.

Other than an outstanding stint in 2002, the Jets have carried Pennington. Either with a strong running game, a strong defense, or both.

And to bring up how lousy the Jets were in the late 80's/early 90's is exactly what losers do. They point to .500 records or barely-above .500 records and view them as triumphant successes while fans of other teams have aspirations of superbowls.

It's the same mentality that wanted Herm Edwards here for the next decade because the team's record wasn't as bad as it had been when the Jets were annual doormats prior to Parcells & his all-star coaching staff coming here.

Ownage.

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The coaching staff turned the page on Chad last year and it's now Kellen's job to lose. Statistically he did poorly last year, and looked rattled at times, but overall I though he did a lot more to win games than Pennington did with the same team. I though it was a respectable job from a young QB on a really bad offense.

He's no lock, but it's his job to lose. That's my humble opinion. The only reason to go with Chad would be because it's "safer." He's a game manager with a low ceiling who shouldn't lose too many games on his own. But with the owner already committing to Tangini thru '09, there's little reason for Eric to go the safe route. He's much better off investigating the higher ceiling that Clemens offers.

Well, they might have simply gone to the kid since they had some free games to use as an audition, but I agree with the thrust here, which is that Clemens is better if he's reaching his potential. The question is, will he start doing the things he failed to do last year?

I really liked what I saw from him physically, but he absolutely must start stepping up in the pocket and throwing on time. That's the one glaring negative difference that I saw (when at the game) between the two quarterbacks.

Clemens held the ball when it needed to get out. He also slid left and right when you want him stepping up. His escapability was a plus, but he used his wheels too often at the wrong time.

Most of this, can improve with time. We've seen quarterback that he slept for years and then the light comes on. Hopefully Clemens can get there with a little more playing time. I also think some of his accuracy issues are related to his not stepping up.

Pennington is a solid fall back option and with a better O line, he could be a winner here in 2008. If I was betting big bucks on the opening day starter, I'd bet Clemens right now, but it's close.

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Ok, then why did we draft the way we did?

Like what? We took a defensive player with our first pick, traded up to get a target for our second pick of the 1st round and our third pick was a defender as well in the 4th round and then a QB in the 5th?

So, I guess being a person that may not understand why we drafted this way then let me tell you. We took Vernon because Darren was gone. Vernon filled a great need for our defense and he was also the best player left on the board prospect wise.

We traded up to get Keller because we needed a target, someone with sure hands, that can position themselves to go get the ball as well as speed. Mangini I would suppose didnt think that a WR would be a better choice, especially with Chris baker crying about a contract extension though he just signed a new one like yesterday (sarcasm).

We took Dwight Lowery because lets face it, There's not alot of quality CB available like that, Dangelo Hall is now in the AFC, our #1 CB in Barret plays incredibly inconsistant and thats not good for the Jets being that he was our #1. Justin Miller hasnt proved himself, Revis had a good year but is still learning and you can never really have too many CB's.

We took Ainge in the 5th round because who is our third string QB???? 3 is the minimum requirement for any football team in the NFL.

We then Took Marcus Henry because L. Coles is really in a downward motion in his career, Jericho isnt a #1 WR, but the number one fact in my opinion is that when Cothery and Coles arent on the field or arent the target of a pass then you wouldnt want to have McCariens attempting to catch a pass....its like he's allergic to the damn ball (yes I know he's gone...and its for that exact reason). So they picked up a WR that is known for his great hands....a possesion receiver....kinda like what welker is to the Pats or what Wayne was to the Jets. He's a WR that will be a problem for the defense because you cant double him and if he can use his size well he can beat defenders in a zone coverage.. You have cotchery and coles already, you have keller on the field to stretch it and you have Henry under in the slot on 3rd down. a much better situation for clemens then anything he had last year.

and 7th we picked up a lineman that can obviously run block...just ask Darren McFadden.

So, what was the point of your question? were you just bored and decided to write and "I" just happen to be the person that was randomly picked because it wasnt like the Jets drafted Matt Ryan or moved up like they did to pick up a QB late in the first or picked up a QB in the 2nd round, or the 3rd round, or the 4th round.

please explain what I missed, where Clemens should be scared of losing his starting spot to a 5th rounder that has a slightly (and I mean SLIGHTLY) stronger arm then Chad. A 5th round QB that when you watch his highlights on youtube look more like highlights for the WR's because he would throw a 5 yard pass and the WR's would make incredible moves to break for gains?

Holla at me when you can let me know.

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That is nonsense. He blew how many leads last year with his 4th quarter interceptions? Or did his supporting cast throw those also?

I never said Clemens looked like anything special last year. Only thing I could say for certain was that he has a very strong arm & is mobile. He's entering his 3rd season. At that point in his career, Pennington was not deemed worthy of giving one NFL start to. Nor as a rookie when Vinny T led the NFL in picks.

But saying a player should be benched indefinitely because he had a poor TD:INT ratio in his first 8 career starts is ridiculous. If that's the attitude, never draft a QB because at least 95% of them are like that.

Carson Palmer's first 7 games, as a second-year player:

5 touchdowns, 10 interceptions. Do those numbers look at all familiar? And 4 of those games were against the Jets' 2nd half prevent defense (when he threw both of his TD's), the 4-12 Dolphins, the 4-12 Browns, and the 5-11 Titans.

So you would have kept Pennington in there instead of such less-than-instant successes (particularly through the first 7 games) as Palmer - as well as superbowl champs like Aikman, Elway, and Eli Manning among other household names. Because Chad has "proven" to be a "winner" in this league.

I agree with you, but I do think that the Carson palmer example was the incorrect one. I wouldnt have benched Jon Kitna, especially with the numbers that he was putting up because Carson was drafted high. Jon kitna was putting up major numbers around the time that carson was getting his jitters out. If Pennington and Carson was teammates then yes...because Pennington leaves incredible room for error....so in that regard I can agree with you. but in reality, being that Jon Kitna was his teammate I think that was stupid of Cincy to do. Or maybe thats because I have a football crush on Jon Kitna. i've always liked him for some reason. He's not the best, but when he plays against the best then they will have to be the best against him on that day in order to win. Jon makes you play to your best potential to beat him...or he'll take home a W.

With Chad, all you have to worry about is making sure that Nugent doesnt kick 7 Fg's in the game to score 21pts and beat you.

but to get back on topic. Carson did prove as many others that you can have a rough start (which is typical) and then get into your grove once you build chemistry and trust within your own ability to play the game.

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I doubt he would have been in those positions had he had a decent supporting cast, in other words some thime to throw or any semblence of a running game.

This is such the TYPICAL CHAD "LAP RIDER" COMMENT! So its cool to say that you "doubt" (which is your opinion) that Chad would have been in those positions if he would have had a decent supporting cast, yet with Kellen its NOT about the supporting cast huh, its just that he should have been able to avoid by himself the pressure from the lack of line protection, or McCariens dropping passes, or coles being hurt, or cotchery finger being broke or the Best WR health wise was brad smith, all this OUTSIDE of him techincally being a rookie on the field so he will have his rookie mistakes. OH, BUT NOW THAT SUPPORTING CAST DOESNT APPLY????

I tell you what, We've been talking about a supporting cast with kellen for 7-8 games. So there's a great chance that its just that.

You're talking about a supporting cast for Chad for the past 6 years....NO DUDE, Its Chad Pennington. Get it through your head. its the fact that he had a weak arm, and he's made alot of brainfart, bone head moves in the 4th quarter to give the momentum and win to the other team. Its the fact that when we had a Major, MAJOR game that was a must win, especially when it was time to show that we are serious and not a cinderella, we would get our azz handed to us because he's throwing hook, jumpshot passes for INT's.

How you start of the year 5-0 and end the year 10-6? The only time I can say Chad one a must win game was against the colts in the playoffs and EVERYGAME in the playoffs is a must win. That was a day in hell for the colts organization, meaning that the earth, moon, sun and stars were all in alignment for the Jets that day. If that was a 7 game series like basketball the Jets would have won that first game and then got swept. WE WERE LUCKY.

Chad hadsnt proved himself. THe games he did win 95 percent of the time where games what the jets were supposed to win anyway. the other 5 percent were games that we were supposed to lose but won, that means that the other 95 percent of the games that we were supposed to lose by the experts we actually lost. how was that proving yourself to be a winner by chad?

People take away the fact that kellen (as an on field rookie) marched down the field and literally "OWNED" the ravens in that 4th quarter by saying that "we wouldnt have lost if he didnt play like sh_t the first 3 quarters" mind you, this team has had one of the most dominate defenses of the past decade. well let me ask you haters this....when have you EVER seen chad pennington dominate a quarter like that in a game when we were getting our azz handed to us in the first 3 quarters? AND I DONT WANNA HEAR SH_T ABOUT ANYTHING IN 2002. tell me something that happened in the last 3 years. You cant, it never happend. Matter of fact, it didnt even happen in 2002.

I can tell you the last time something like that happened. it was in 2000, it was called the "Monday Night Miracle". The only difference was that Wayne and Jumbo Elliott was catching TD's for Testy but McCariens were dropping them for Kellen.

Get a grip homie, Penny is finished. And if Mangini doesnt realize that I will personally go to Jets stadium (yes, i said JETS STADIUM), sneak on the field and personally sack pennington's fragile azz and tear that shoulder up. Get up and Chase Mangini back to New England because him putting Chad back in would just prove to me that he's a NE Patriot secret agent here to destroy this team with incredibly high offseason spending and stupid azz decisions like keeping Chad as the starter.

P.S. dont push me, I will sack Chad if I have to. (:rl:This isnt Chad Laughing, this is him crying in horrible pain from my love tap of a sack to his tampon like shoulder):character0264:

P.P.S. For Jetnation to even have a thread made by myself and it even hit 12+ pages long about how Clemens WILL be the starter when Pennington has 6 years minimum under his belt to defend his position should show you that maybe he's DONE! 6 years of Chad cant even defeat 7 games of Clemens. Its crazy to sit here and really fathom that isnt it?

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What does it matter what Chad Pennington was like before two shoulder surgeries? If we're going to suck him off for the 2002 season then we should bring in Rich Gannon who was the league MVP that year.

THANK YOU SPERM!(no homo)lol.

When I mentioned the fact about chad not even haveing a "great year" that year and rich gannon was MVP people wrote me like I was stupid, yet these same people live off a pipe dream, a fluke year that happened 6 years ago with a guy that doesnt even have the same arm as 6 years ago. You know what, I think im just going to stick to talking to you because alot (not all) of these alleged jet fans are really on something, and it aint chronic. I guess they mix their chronic with pennington...got them trippin.

P.S. If Pennington was that good Herman Edwards would be doing much more to try and get him. c'mon, pennington was even mentioned as a possibility for a draft day trade.

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Don't you remember nine pages ago? Pennington had a better year than the MVP in '02.

You see, I knew it wasnt all, dominator even remembers when people stated that Chad had a great year, and put up better stats than manning and gannon. these people would say anything to watch a qb put us in the grave.

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In 2002 he had an outstanding 75% of a season.

In 2003...injured; in his half season he was worse than in 2002.

In 2004 he was much worse than 2002 and was also worse than 2003 (except for one '03 Patriots game when his dumbass coach announced to the planet that Chad will be throwing downfield all game).

In 2005...injured.

In 2006 he was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

In 2007 he was much worse than 2006, which was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

Is that your idea of:

(a) getting better

(B) staying exactly the same

© getting worse

Even if he stays healthy, which is a longshot, he blows. If he played for any other team all we'd read here is about how crappy he is.

And that int vs the Colts was a killer and it was absolutely on Chad. Bad playcalling or not, if this "smart" QB is not smart enough to audible out of that after seeing what the defense was doing, then he brings nothing to the table, because he's not out there because of his wonderful right arm. He also could have thrown it away and pinned Indy at their 2 or wherever we were. Pretty sure we were inside the 5 but I'm not looking it up.

I am not interested in what he once was 6 seasons ago. Rich Gannon was the MVP 6 seasons ago. In 2004 he beat a bunch of chump teams & Pennington's sucky backup did at least as well as Pennington did. Who cares what he would have been "if he didn't hurt his shoulder" as you put it?

He chokes in games.

When he makes a bad play, it is obvious that he cannot get it out of his head.

Other than an outstanding stint in 2002, the Jets have carried Pennington. Either with a strong running game, a strong defense, or both.

And to bring up how lousy the Jets were in the late 80's/early 90's is exactly what losers do. They point to .500 records or barely-above .500 records and view them as triumphant successes while fans of other teams have aspirations of superbowls.

It's the same mentality that wanted Herm Edwards here for the next decade because the team's record wasn't as bad as it had been when the Jets were annual doormats prior to Parcells & his all-star coaching staff coming here.

You said he has done nothing but get worse but he got better from '03 to '04 so that prove your statement incorrect and of course he hasn't been as good as he was in 2002, parts of '03 and the beginning of '04 b/c his career was ruined in 2004 w/ that shoulder injury yet he still came back after 2 shoulder surgeries and led us to 10 wins w/ a terrible D, a medicore OL and no running game.

How was that INT against Indy a killer? How? It was an asinine decision to go for it, we weren't getting points either way, it just gave Indy the ball at the 20 instead of the 3 or 4. Would that have stopped the Colts? We didn't stop Manning all day when he was throwing, the game was close b/c the Colts tried to run all first half.

Yeah it's the same mentality that likes to WIN! but for some reason you hate Chad and Herm and wopuld prefer to lose.

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You realize that was the FIRST START OF HIS CAREER right? What exactly were you expecting him to do? Play like John Elway?

The fact that he was able to make a 4th quarter comeback like he did in his first start is very impressive. In spite of his poor play in the first 3 quarters he was able to pull it together and lead the team on a comeback drive.

And you're damn right that I'll blame it on McCareins. He's an NFL wide reciever, he's supposed to make that catch. Clemens made a perfect throw and yet you're blaming him for not having a perfect game on the road in the first game of his career?

It seems like most of the people opposed to Clemens starting feel that way because he didn't play like John Elway in the first few starts of his career. Fact is Pennington had his best year 6 years ago, and it is time to move on. He is not a QB that is going to win the Super Bowl, he has proven that. I don't know if Clemens can, but I know that Pennington can't. There is absolutely no reason for Pennington to be the starter.

I diodn't expect him to be great, I haven't given up on Clemens as awfula s he was last year but people make excuses for him that receivers dropped passes but Chad, who had as many if not more dropped passes in key spots, doesn't get that excuse and they make it sound like that Baltimore game was all on McCareins when Clemens was brutal for 3qtrs. If he was just medicore we not have trailed by as much and likely would have won that game.

Actually, he played a lot like John Elway in the first several starts. Elway threw 7 TD's and 14 INT's in his first 10 starts and also sucked, completing only 47.5% of his passes. Clearly Denver should have stuck with Steve DeBerg, who "led them to the playoffs" that season with his 9:7 TD:INT ratio.

Yep, I was thinking John Elway while watching Clemens last year b/c their situations are so similar. Clemens was hyped since his HS years and was the #1 overall pick too, right? and Clemens started as a rookie w/o the luxury of sitting out and learning for over a year, right? MOST QBs will struggle in their first years of playing and the debate here is not about Clemens as he obviously deserves more chances to prove himself, the debate is about Chad who has had ONE bad healthy year in his career.

Chad has proven to be a choke artist. If you consider 16 TD's and 9 INT's to be near the league leaders in 2004 I would like to have what you are smoking.

I said WHEN HE GOT HURT. He had near a 100 rating and was right there w/ the league leaders. We were 6-1 as well. Read before you post, now get back to that Celtics bandwagon it's starting to get lighter.

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You said he has done nothing but get worse but he got better from '03 to '04 so that prove your statement incorrect and of course he hasn't been as good as he was in 2002, parts of '03 and the beginning of '04 b/c his career was ruined in 2004 w/ that shoulder injury yet he still came back after 2 shoulder surgeries and led us to 10 wins w/ a terrible D, a medicore OL and no running game.

How was that INT against Indy a killer? How? It was an asinine decision to go for it, we weren't getting points either way, it just gave Indy the ball at the 20 instead of the 3 or 4. Would that have stopped the Colts? We didn't stop Manning all day when he was throwing, the game was close b/c the Colts tried to run all first half.

Yeah it's the same mentality that likes to WIN! but for some reason you hate Chad and Herm and wopuld prefer to lose.

You're funny.

Pennington (when he actually played) was not better in 2004 than 2003. He had one miserable game when your favorite HC announced to the Patriots that we'd incorporate a downfield passing attack in the upcoming game. Other than that he was better than he was in 2004, and looked pretty much the same as he did in 2002, sprinkled in with some worse games. In 2003 he was worse than 2002, but looked better than he did in 2004 when the defense & running game carried him.

And your logic of the Jets not being able to stop Peyton Manning as a reason to kick a FG instead of trying for a TD from the 2 makes no sense. IF we couldn't stop Manning, do you think it is more likely to catch them by going TD for TD or by trading a FG for their TD? And what an attitude anyway: can't win; don't try.

Either way, that is not relevant once the play was in: Pennington could have audibled a different play once he saw what Indy was doing; he did not. Once the ball was then snapped and he saw his receiver in triple coverage in the endzone he could have thrown it away; he did not. He threw a pick. Indy ball on the Jets 20 instead of Indy ball on the Jets 2.

Bad plays are called all the time. The good QB's succeed (or make the best of a bad situation) in spite of it. The losers throw picks and blame the play calls for those interceptions.

I don't "hate Chad" - I hated Herm. I think Chad is a lousy QB; that is not hating him. What I don't like is an attitude of putting someone like Chad in because they like his upside of potentially doing the least harm. Even if a miracle happened, and he started playing close to that phantom 2002 season, he's going to get injured, as usual, anyway. And that's more likely than Pennington dumping-off his way to a serious superbowl run.

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Chad 2003: 4-5 record as a starter,

189-297, 2139 yds, 13 TDs 12 INTs, 82.9 rating

removing that Pats game(4-4 record):

165-254, 1910 yds 13 TDs, 7 INTs, 93.3 rating

Chad 2004(pre-injury): 6-1 record

137-201, 1502 yds, 8 TDs, 2 INTs, 99.1 rating

Which is better? Chad was back among the top QBs in the game in '04 before he hurt his shoulder. Brady and Manning had elevated their games to where they were alone at the top but the Chad was in the next tier until he hurt that shoulder and he was better in 2004 than he was in 2003. He was red hot when he came back in 2003 throwing 12 TDs in his first 5 starts back but he only threw 1 the final 4 games.

It was very late in the 3rd qtr, our O was moving the ball up and down the field at will. A 4th and G from the opponents 3 is a near impossible situation. Take the 3, go up 3 points and get a lead. Guess what? The Jets lost that game by 3 points. Do you think they could have used that FG?

That was Chad's FIRST career RZ INT, he threw it up for grans hopign someone would come down w/ it, he shouldn't have doen that but he shouldn't have been put in that situation to begin w/ and the few yds Indy gained wasn't the end of the World. It wasn't like his INT cost us points like most RZ INTs do.

Chad has had ONE bad healthy year and that was last year, I don't think you throw away a player after 1 bad year. He clearly isn't the same guy since his shoulder injuries but he's still an above average QB when healthy w/ the exception of last year when Joe Montana couldn't have been successful w/ that OL and that lack of running game. Let him and Clemens battle it out, I expect both to be alot better w/ all the changes we have made. Clemens clearly has more physical attributes while Chad is way ahead of him mentally, we'll see which wins out.

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Chad 2003: 4-5 record as a starter,

189-297, 2139 yds, 13 TDs 12 INTs, 82.9 rating

removing that Pats game(4-4 record):

165-254, 1910 yds 13 TDs, 7 INTs, 93.3 rating

Chad 2004(pre-injury): 6-1 record

137-201, 1502 yds, 8 TDs, 2 INTs, 99.1 rating

Which is better? Chad was back among the top QBs in the game in '04 before he hurt his shoulder. Brady and Manning had elevated their games to where they were alone at the top but the Chad was in the next tier until he hurt that shoulder and he was better in 2004 than he was in 2003. He was red hot when he came back in 2003 throwing 12 TDs in his first 5 starts back but he only threw 1 the final 4 games.

It was very late in the 3rd qtr, our O was moving the ball up and down the field at will. A 4th and G from the opponents 3 is a near impossible situation. Take the 3, go up 3 points and get a lead. Guess what? The Jets lost that game by 3 points. Do you think they could have used that FG?

That was Chad's FIRST career RZ INT, he threw it up for grans hopign someone would come down w/ it, he shouldn't have doen that but he shouldn't have been put in that situation to begin w/ and the few yds Indy gained wasn't the end of the World. It wasn't like his INT cost us points like most RZ INTs do.

Chad has had ONE bad healthy year and that was last year, I don't think you throw away a player after 1 bad year. He clearly isn't the same guy since his shoulder injuries but he's still an above average QB when healthy w/ the exception of last year when Joe Montana couldn't have been successful w/ that OL and that lack of running game. Let him and Clemens battle it out, I expect both to be alot better w/ all the changes we have made. Clemens clearly has more physical attributes while Chad is way ahead of him mentally, we'll see which wins out.

I notice you're doing the whole re-arranging of history to make it suit your argument again.

Before his injury, in 2004 Pennington played in that Buffalo game. The score was 20-10 Buffalo when Quincy Carter was inserted with 6 minutes to play in the game. We scored a TD after that because a QB with an actual arm, mental case that he was, threw a 50-yard TD pass to Santana Moss (which happened almost never with Pennington). You neither counted that game nor the crappy #'s he put up in that game - before he got injured - because it didn't suit your argument.

Also noticed you listed the team's record without saying who the teams were that we won/lost to. Our first 5 games of 2004 were against teams that were a combined 1-15 or something like that at the time of our matchups. That only win was one of those 5 sorry teams (Buffalo) beating one of the other 4 (Miami). You also left out that his mental-case backup was 2-1 (along with a 98 QB rating for those who still value that stat) and would have been 3-0 if not for your favorite HC's unbridled stupidity and McGoo-ness.

So that gets glossed over, as well as Pennington coming in cold off the bench in his first game back (another one of Herm's genius moves after another non-Chad QB threw a 50+ yd touchdown to Moss), and one of the 2003 games vs Pittsburgh occurring in a near-blizzard (not to mention a victory against an actual outstanding team, which Pennington couldn't accomplish in '04 unless you include the paper tiger Chargers).

Since that "magical" 2004 season, Pennington has more turnovers than touchdowns. If that's your idea of an above-average QB, then there must not even be words to describe those that are legitimately top-10.

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I am not rearraining anything, Chad got hurt and the Jets had a lead in that game, he foolishly didn't come out until late in the game but that doesn't mean he wasn't hurt earlier. I don't remember the specific time of the injury but he was hurt in the first half and the game was tied at the half so do you want me to use halftime stats? I love how I am rearrainging things but you leave out an entire game in 2003 but that's ok.

Our 1st 5 games were against teams that were 1-15? You do know we beat SD on the road, the only team to do so all reg season long(we'd do it again in January), and beat a 9-07 Buffalo team then were w/in a McCareins catch in the final minute of beating NE. SD was 1-0 when we faced them so I don't know how the only win from one of those teams was Buf over Miami.

Cincy- 0-0

SD 1-0

Miami 0-2

Buf 0-3(lost 2 of the 3 by a total of 6 points)

SF 1-4

If you are going to post #s at least get them right, the teams we played were 2-9 at the times we played them which isn't good BUT SD finished 12-4(7-0 at home in games agaianst everyone besides the Jets), Buf finished 9-7 and Cincy 8-8. The sched wasn't as easy as it looked.

That 50 yd TD to Moss in 2003 was a flea flicker w/ Moss wide open(much like Clemens to Coles last year except Vinny actually hit him in stride and didn't get Moss hurt) it wasn't like Chad's perfectly thrown 47 yd bomb to Moss against double coverage in the WC game at SD in '04 or his perfectly thrown 57 yd bomb that split the coverage to Coles against Cincy last year.

The Chargers were paper tigers? Why b/c the Herm and Chad led Jets beta them twice? They were 12-4 in a good division, they lost one home game all regular season. They beat some good teams and nearly beat 12-4 Indy in Week 16 at Indy.

He's had 2 mostly healthy seasons, 1 decent and 1 bad. Only ONCE has he been mostly healthy and failed to lead us to the postseason.

Who do you want as our QB? You got your wish and Herm is gone(in case you didn't notcie for the first time in over a decade we were a healthy horrible team but Herm was gone so you were happy) but who would you have wanted the Jets to get this offseason at QB?

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I am not rearraining anything, Chad got hurt and the Jets had a lead in that game, he foolishly didn't come out until late in the game but that doesn't mean he wasn't hurt earlier. I don't remember the specific time of the injury but he was hurt in the first half and the game was tied at the half so do you want me to use halftime stats? I love how I am rearrainging things but you leave out an entire game in 2003 but that's ok.

Our 1st 5 games were against teams that were 1-15? You do know we beat SD on the road, the only team to do so all reg season long(we'd do it again in January), and beat a 9-07 Buffalo team then were w/in a McCareins catch in the final minute of beating NE. SD was 1-0 when we faced them so I don't know how the only win from one of those teams was Buf over Miami.

Cincy- 0-0

SD 1-0

Miami 0-2

Buf 0-3(lost 2 of the 3 by a total of 6 points)

SF 1-4

If you are going to post #s at least get them right, the teams we played were 2-9 at the times we played them which isn't good BUT SD finished 12-4(7-0 at home in games agaianst everyone besides the Jets), Buf finished 9-7 and Cincy 8-8. The sched wasn't as easy as it looked.

That 50 yd TD to Moss in 2003 was a flea flicker w/ Moss wide open(much like Clemens to Coles last year except Vinny actually hit him in stride and didn't get Moss hurt) it wasn't like Chad's perfectly thrown 47 yd bomb to Moss against double coverage in the WC game at SD in '04 or his perfectly thrown 57 yd bomb that split the coverage to Coles against Cincy last year.

The Chargers were paper tigers? Why b/c the Herm and Chad led Jets beta them twice? They were 12-4 in a good division, they lost one home game all regular season. They beat some good teams and nearly beat 12-4 Indy in Week 16 at Indy.

He's had 2 mostly healthy seasons, 1 decent and 1 bad. Only ONCE has he been mostly healthy and failed to lead us to the postseason.

Who do you want as our QB? You got your wish and Herm is gone(in case you didn't notcie for the first time in over a decade we were a healthy horrible team but Herm was gone so you were happy) but who would you have wanted the Jets to get this offseason at QB?

Check this out, This is stupid. Chad isnt the player that he was in 2002 or 2004. He's had multiple surgeries and even if you were right, he hasnt been any good for the "team" the past 4 years. You see, I am a JETS FAN, not a chad fan or a clemens fan so this isnt a personal or favortism thing. I want whats best for the Jets to win a chip and in Chads best year he couldnt even get us to an AFC championship game. so, we can talk about him being this and that in 02 or 04, but all that tells me is that Chad hasnt been relevant for a minimum 4 years. During those four years he's had two typically career ending shoulder surgeries to an arm that wasnt strong in the first place.

Why cant you just let it go? I'd rather have clemens look as bad as he did knowing that theres a potential upside to him career wise than having chad look as bad as clemens and knowing Chads prior 4 year history I "KNOW" that if things get better it wont be by much. He's not a probowl QB, and at best he's a first round playoff QB. He's nothing more than a mediocre QB at best as of May 13th 2008.

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Why is it that I should move on w/ my points but you guys rehash the same old boring stuff over and over again but you shouldn't move on?

No Chad hasn't been the same since he hurt his shoulder but in his 2 healthy years he's gone 1 for 2. he was decent in 2006 w/ no running game, a mediocre OL and a mediocre D. He was bad last year w/ no running game, a horrid OL and and a bad D the first half of the year. Chad is still a competent QB, w/ a better running game and better pass protection he will be more effective. Maybe his time has passed but he deserves an opportunity to win his job back and we could do alot worse at QB than Chad being our starter come opening day.

Just so you know, just as w/ the coach I don't care who the QB is as long as we win. I just appreciate when guys have won for us and have conducted themselves w/ class throuhg adversity.

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Why is it that I should move on w/ my points but you guys rehash the same old boring stuff over and over again but you shouldn't move on?

No Chad hasn't been the same since he hurt his shoulder but in his 2 healthy years he's gone 1 for 2. he was decent in 2006 w/ no running game, a mediocre OL and a mediocre D. He was bad last year w/ no running game, a horrid OL and and a bad D the first half of the year. Chad is still a competent QB, w/ a better running game and better pass protection he will be more effective. Maybe his time has passed but he deserves an opportunity to win his job back and we could do alot worse at QB than Chad being our starter come opening day.

Just so you know, just as w/ the coach I don't care who the QB is as long as we win. I just appreciate when guys have won for us and have conducted themselves w/ class throuhg adversity.

You have to remember that these same people cheered when Pennington got hurt last year. That was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen as a Jets fan. What exactly Clemens showed anyone last year that made them think he is better than Chad is beyond me. Everyone that puts Chad down says that they want to win, yet they want to hand the team to an unproven guy who looked like a deer in headlights in the few games he has played to this point. I'm not saying Kellen should not get another look and another shot at it but handing the team to him is ridiculous after what we saw last year. I have no problem with Clemens being the QB if he can win the job. From what I've seen so far, I am not impressed at all. He actually seemed to get worse as the year went on instead of improving. I puked in my mouth watching him against KC. I know Chad can win but Kellen has a lot to prove before I'd hand an NFL team to him.

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You have to remember that these same people cheered when Pennington got hurt last year. That was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen as a Jets fan. What exactly Clemens showed anyone last year that made them think he is better than Chad is beyond me. Everyone that puts Chad down says that they want to win, yet they want to hand the team to an unproven guy who looked like a deer in headlights in the few games he has played to this point. I'm not saying Kellen should not get another look and another shot at it but handing the team to him is ridiculous after what we saw last year. I have no problem with Clemens being the QB if he can win the job. From what I've seen so far, I am not impressed at all. He actually seemed to get worse as the year went on instead of improving. I puked in my mouth watching him against KC. I know Chad can win but Kellen has a lot to prove before I'd hand an NFL team to him.

"You have to remember"????? sun, you dont even know me. I didnt cheer when he got hurt, do make me look like pig...I waited until after the game whenthey said that he would be gone for a long time :headbang:. As for Clemens, once again, you dont know me. This has nothing to do with Clemens giving me a sign that he's better than pennington. Its about Clemens "NOT" being pennington, Its about Quincy Carter not being pennington, its about brooks bollinger not being pennington.

I dont believe in him anymore, and I never believed in his arm. It may take you a few hundred more years for you to come around but not me, I'll take the head start.

P.S. Given that you decided that you knew me and wanted to assume then let me do the same.

You were the one crying when we finally got rid of Paul Hackett...saying what a genius paul is, how could the jets do this to the team....THE ORGANIZATION. We just had to give him another 4 years before he made this into the most explosive offense the NFL would ever see baby....

18-1 baby!

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"You have to remember"????? sun, you dont even know me. I didnt cheer when he got hurt, do make me look like pig...I waited until after the game whenthey said that he would be gone for a long time :headbang:. As for Clemens, once again, you dont know me. This has nothing to do with Clemens giving me a sign that he's better than pennington. Its about Clemens "NOT" being pennington, Its about Quincy Carter not being pennington, its about brooks bollinger not being pennington.

I dont believe in him anymore, and I never believed in his arm. It may take you a few hundred more years for you to come around but not me, I'll take the head start.

P.S. Given that you decided that you knew me and wanted to assume then let me do the same.

You were the one crying when we finally got rid of Paul Hackett...saying what a genius paul is, how could the jets do this to the team....THE ORGANIZATION. We just had to give him another 4 years before he made this into the most explosive offense the NFL would ever see baby....

18-1 baby!

I didn't know you were "people" but what I was talking about is that the people who dislike and do not want Pennington to play are the same ones that cheered when he was hurt. The post I was responding to said "you guys" ... it was not directed at any one person and neither was my response. That wasn't directed at you. The fact that you were happy he was injured after the game is pretty fudged up but to each their own. I wouldn't even be happy if Brady got hurt and I have a voodoo doll of him.

Yeah, I wish Hackett was back now. That would be just wonderful. Where the hell do you get that from? You do have a hearty dislike for Chad so at least what I said would make sense. Hackett was the biggest moron I have ever seen run an Offense. To be honest I didn't want him when they first gave him the job. If you said that as a joke it is funny. If you really think I like Hackett I'd like you to share some of that kind bud you got burnin' over there.

I understand you are done with Pennington but to say you'd rather have Bollinger or Carter is ridiculous. I hope you were just making a point there. Anyway man, I hope you'll still be rooting for the Jets this year if Chad gets the job because it is quite possible he may get it. No matter how any of us feel Mangini has 9 million reasons to try to make it work unless Clemens blows him out of the water. Even without the contract as a factor Mangini has never said that he is going with Clemens. As much as I like Chad I am more than willing to see Clemens start if Mangini makes that decision.

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In 2002 he had an outstanding 75% of a season.

In 2003...injured; in his half season he was worse than in 2002.

In 2004 he was much worse than 2002 and was also worse than 2003 (except for one '03 Patriots game when his dumbass coach announced to the planet that Chad will be throwing downfield all game).

In 2005...injured.

In 2006 he was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

In 2007 he was much worse than 2006, which was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

Is that your idea of:

(a) getting better

(B) staying exactly the same

© getting worse

Even if he stays healthy, which is a longshot, he blows. If he played for any other team all we'd read here is about how crappy he is.

And that int vs the Colts was a killer and it was absolutely on Chad. Bad playcalling or not, if this "smart" QB is not smart enough to audible out of that after seeing what the defense was doing, then he brings nothing to the table, because he's not out there because of his wonderful right arm. He also could have thrown it away and pinned Indy at their 2 or wherever we were. Pretty sure we were inside the 5 but I'm not looking it up.

I am not interested in what he once was 6 seasons ago. Rich Gannon was the MVP 6 seasons ago. In 2004 he beat a bunch of chump teams & Pennington's sucky backup did at least as well as Pennington did. Who cares what he would have been "if he didn't hurt his shoulder" as you put it?

He chokes in games.

When he makes a bad play, it is obvious that he cannot get it out of his head.

Other than an outstanding stint in 2002, the Jets have carried Pennington. Either with a strong running game, a strong defense, or both.

And to bring up how lousy the Jets were in the late 80's/early 90's is exactly what losers do. They point to .500 records or barely-above .500 records and view them as triumphant successes while fans of other teams have aspirations of superbowls.

It's the same mentality that wanted Herm Edwards here for the next decade because the team's record wasn't as bad as it had been when the Jets were annual doormats prior to Parcells & his all-star coaching staff coming here.

This is the greatest post I have ever read. Fan-****in'-tastic.

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Nice, except none of it is wrong.

Pennington has progressively gotten worse. The only way you can rationalize otherwise is based on # of games where he actually wasn't injured. Based on that, you can say he was better in '04 than '03 or better in '06 than '05. I'll grant that one. He was better in '06 than '05 because he hardly played in '05. Happy?

He had 2 options other than throwing an endzone pick vs Indy: audible out of the play or throw the pass away. He did neither, instead opting to throw into triple coverage & getting picked off.

And pointing to 9 or 10 win seasons as though they were as good as the team could have possibly done even with a better QB, is what apologists do to make excuses for their favorite individuals. We all saw it with Herm also.

I'm still waiting to see how "much" of it is incorrect. But that's ok; we all know.

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Just wanted to comment on how funny it is that a thread started as 'The Debate Is Over..." has already made it 14 pages. Even funnier is that Mangini has no say in this "debate" we are having even though it is his decision to make.

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Just wanted to comment on how funny it is that a thread started as 'The Debate Is Over..." has already made it 14 pages. Even funnier is that Mangini has no say in this "debate" we are having even though it is his decision to make.

lol

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Nice, except none of it is wrong.

Pennington has progressively gotten worse. The only way you can rationalize otherwise is based on # of games where he actually wasn't injured. Based on that, you can say he was better in '04 than '03 or better in '06 than '05. I'll grant that one. He was better in '06 than '05 because he hardly played in '05. Happy?

He had 2 options other than throwing an endzone pick vs Indy: audible out of the play or throw the pass away. He did neither, instead opting to throw into triple coverage & getting picked off.

And pointing to 9 or 10 win seasons as though they were as good as the team could have possibly done even with a better QB, is what apologists do to make excuses for their favorite individuals. We all saw it with Herm also.

I'm still waiting to see how "much" of it is incorrect. But that's ok; we all know.

I already showed you but as usual you ignore facts. he was better in 2004 than he was in 2003 and his INT at Indy did not cost us, it was the stupid decision to go for it that cost us as we eventually lose by the 3 points we didn't take in that situation.

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I already showed you but as usual you ignore facts. he was better in 2004 than he was in 2003 and his INT at Indy did not cost us, it was the stupid decision to go for it that cost us as we eventually lose by the 3 points we didn't take in that situation.

What facts? That Pennington played more than half his games in 2004 (which sadly was a big accomplishment for him between 2003 and 2005)? That he had an easier time with the cupcake teams he faced?

Your confusing stance re Indy seems to be that there was no choice for Pennington to do anything other than throw an interception. Bad play call or not, he panicked by lobbing a ball up-for-grabs into triple coverage. Accept it.

But overall, your "ace in the hole" as to refuting that Pennington has generally gotten worse year after year since 2002 is that you feel he was markedly better in 2004 than 2003 and I do not (other than he played more games). To justify this, you point to an overall team record, when that team record mirrors how the Jets did with or without Pennington, and useless numbers for a passer of his style like completion percentage and QB rating. Even with a top running game, the Jets were more likely to score 17 points or less in '04 unless we were facing the most garbage of garbage pass defenders like SD, San Fran, Cincy, StL, Seattle, and Houston. Unless your argument that he had one crap game and one good game against Miami's pass defense & that made him oh so much better.

And then to compound your ridiculous skewing of numbers, you absolve Pennington for getting injured by only comparing those "pre-injury" numbers of Pennington's. Which you also did dishonestly because you eliminated a game he played over 50 minutes of (Buffalo) when his stats didn't suit your argument, while throwing in a 2003 game (Pittsburgh) that was played in a blizzard.

And with all that, it's still damn close. And this - THIS - is your argument that Pennington has not gotten generally worse year after year since 2002?

He only played most of the season in 2002, 2004, 2006, and 2007 (pathetic as that stat is on its own):

2007 he was worse than 2006

2006 he was worse than 2004

2004 he was worse than 2002

2002 >> 2004 >> 2006 >> 2007.

I can't believe anyone would argue this.

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I already showed you but as usual you ignore facts. he was better in 2004 than he was in 2003 and his INT at Indy did not cost us, it was the stupid decision to go for it that cost us as we eventually lose by the 3 points we didn't take in that situation.

Why don't you mention 2006? That was the only year Chad played in every game. 17 TDs & 16 INTs.

I'm no math major but 2006 was only a couple of years ago. 2003 and 2004 happened a while ago.

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Why don't you mention 2006? That was the only year Chad played in every game. 17 TDs & 16 INTs.

I'm no math major but 2006 was only a couple of years ago. 2003 and 2004 happened a while ago.

They also had two rookies on the OL, Anthony Clement at RT, and an awful HB by committee with such gamebreakers as Barlow and Houston. He was also fresh off of shoulder surgery. As I remember the Jets went 10-6 and made the playoffs and lost to the Patriots on the road. I'm not saying it was a great year but considering what he had as far as a running game goes and that he was fresh of rotator surgery, it wasn't so bad either.

2007 was awful but I'm not sure if any QB could have done much with that team.

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