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Still disappointed with the draft.


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Dustin Keller is 6'3 and The NFL (the company that employes him) says so.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/dustin-keller?id=1074

Also, as for Damien Woody, I will kindly disagree with you. Just because he got benched by the Lions which had a disorganized line anyway, Quoting you "The team that is "perennially" at the top of the sacks allowed category", only tells me that it wasnt solely his doing if the Lions are perennially at the top of that list...I think it would be fair to say that given the definition of the word. Im not saying that he's in the top 5 guards in the league when playing that position, but he played with The Patriots for a number of years, winning a superbowl playing that position as well as playing for the lions for a number of years before getting benched last year at that position, then was switched and once again excelled.

We must also remember that his natural position is actually Center. Thats the position listed by the NFL.

http://www.nfl.com/players/damienwoody/profile?id=WOO708514

He's played for years, showing effectiveness at the guard position, he's also showed versatility as being the only active player in the NFL to have started at one time or another in his career every offensive line position in the NFL.

He may not be the RG version of Alan Faneca but he's proven himself to be a jack of all trades which is something that we also dont have at the o-line positions. which is something that if you have is very valuable do to potential injury. And going into his 10th season he's only missed 16 games, which 11 of those missed games were in one year. In other words, he's always on the field. there's a reason for that Dominator.

Dustin Keller is 6' 2 and 1/8 inch tall because that is what he measured at the combine. I don't care what any bull**** press release says. I'm pretty sure that Purdue's website had him listed at 6'4". That doesn't make it true.

You claim Damien Woody "excelled". I call bull****. I'll bet you didn't see him play a single game at tackle. I know I didn't. Center is his natural position? That's nice, but how exactly does that help us? Mangold is probably the one sure thing on the line. I didn't say the guy would suck at G or T, but you called people out for worrying that he would suck. I hope they scouted him well, but if past performance is any indication we will not have a dominating presence at RT. A jack of all trades is nice to have. As a back up. As a starting RT I want more than versatility. I want a quality starting RT and we have nobody on the roster to even compete with this guy.

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Such vitriol! You make good points about how well the FO has done this off season. I do like the Woody pick up, by the way.

I've been a Jets fan since Joe Willy Namath signed for $400,000. Along the way I've seen plenty of reasons to question the draft picks of the Jets and every NFL team. You speak like they can't be questioned. I know they are more likely to be right than I am, but is it so wrong to have a different opinion? Don't get all angry and bitter because someone disagrees with you. This is jetnation, not jet****.

edit: those astericks are for the word **** as in Hitler's credo. (I didn't know that was a banned word)

Oh. I thought you meant www.jet****.com or www.jet****.com

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I agree with most of your points and have made it clear that I like the Keller pick but your saying the guy catches everything based on youtube videos??

Those are highlight reels which will only contain his best moments. The only way you could know that he 'catches everything' is if you consistently watched him in college. Not saying that you did not but I'm just pointing out that if you're basing that information on youtube videos, then it's pretty useless.

lmao, na, i wasnt solely getting my information from a 5 min video over a collegiate career. I was getting my information for analyst that were being critical of his football ability. To be honest, I've never heard of Dustin before the draft, but then again, that goes for 99 percent of the people that come out of college given that i really dont follow college football unless a particular player strikes me in some way which only happened once (Larry Fitzgerald). However, once a player is drafted I do a bit of homework on them, outside of the combine. yes, my youtube video was part of my breakdown but it wasnt anything I would consider "primary", it was more like the icing on the cake given that it was a highlight reel. Sh-t, I can do a highlight reel of me being an unbelievable TE yet in High School I played Defensive Tackle lol and the last time I was known for having good hands was on a one way street in the Bronx playing street ball at age 10. Damn, thinking back on that I really was pretty good, I learnt how to catch over the shoulder in those streets at that age.

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I like it when a team trades up for a player. That tells me they really did their homework on somebody and really, really want him. It certainly worked out with Revis and Harris last year. I'll give Tangini the benefit of doubt on Keller.

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Dustin Keller is 6' 2 and 1/8 inch tall because that is what he measured at the combine. I don't care what any bull**** press release says. I'm pretty sure that Purdue's website had him listed at 6'4". That doesn't make it true.

You claim Damien Woody "excelled". I call bull****. I'll bet you didn't see him play a single game at tackle. I know I didn't. Center is his natural position? That's nice, but how exactly does that help us? Mangold is probably the one sure thing on the line. I didn't say the guy would suck at G or T, but you called people out for worrying that he would suck. I hope they scouted him well, but if past performance is any indication we will not have a dominating presence at RT. A jack of all trades is nice to have. As a back up. As a starting RT I want more than versatility. I want a quality starting RT and we have nobody on the roster to even compete with this guy.

Dude, im not going to argue with you about his height, neither me nor you took his height so I'll leave that alone, however, even with that being said, it doesnt disprove my point that I originally made because if they lie about his height then the other TE's that I mentioned they could have elaborated on their height as well. It still doesnt give reason to say that he's an "undersized" TE to any extent.

You got me there D. I never consciously seen him play a football game. Given that I watch alot of football, I do believe that I've caught a few games with him playing especially with him being an ex-patriot and I am a Jets fan and I dont miss games..so that means I've seen him play atleast twice a year. And from that I can tell you that getting through that line wasnt easy, and there o-line didnt have a noticeable weakness at RG/RT when woody was there. But yes, I didnt watch a football game looking "exactly" at Woody.

As for a Jack of all trades comment that I mentioned. He's still much better than the prior Tackle that we had, so its still a major upgrade in every sense of the word given that he was the best tackle available if im correct, and with the addition of Faneca and the ability of D'brick and Mangold being able to fully concentrate on their assignments independently its still a major upgrade then what we had. He won a superbowl, I believe twice as a starting lineman. i dont care what anyone says, he's what we need. The lions didnt compliment him, the got a solid player and they rest of their line sucks...in return make his job harder and he began to suck (thats an opinion, because like you said, I've never consciously watch a Woody game). but what I can say is that when he had a line with people doing their job, he was able to do his job "effectively" given that he was a consistent starter. Now with the line that we have now, I could see him doing the same thing...as well as our Coach. Mangini think hes a good look and Mangini was in NE when woody was there so this is also something that i could use to for my point given that this isnt Mangini's first experience with him and though woody wasnt under the microscope by me, he was by NE staff which included Mangini at a point and time.

As for you, I can say the same. How do you not know that he isnt a quality RT? because he was cut by the horrible lions? when Have the lions ever did anything right outside of Barry Sanders and Jon Kitna???, oh and Williams. How many times have the jets release someone and they go to another team and dominate? Well, I think in this case, given his OVERALL career that this could be the case.

Lastly, I dont "call people out" for worrying that somone may suck. this whole team could suck and we can go 0-16, its possible but not probable. I only call out people who arent worrying but are making assumptions and try to base them as more than assumptions. I do what everyone does in forums, I combat things that I disagree with. Sometimes I could be wrong...sometimes im right. In this situation, I think that woody is a better look and was best available for the position than what the jets had and could have stuck with.

almost forgot, I doubt that Mangold is still the solely sure thing on this line right now.

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First off, This isnt YOUR draft, it was the Jets Draft. You could have whomever you wanted but the Jets were confident in Keller. Much of what you said doesnt make sense only because you were saying them to make the understanding clear that you would have preferred other players on this team then a person that was completely unexpected to 99% of the Jet fans in the world when the picked Dustin, and moved up for him at that.

I will address a few things.

#1. His size: How is he "undersized"? He's 6'3 and ways 242lbs. There wasnt a Prospect sheet out that had a TE better than Keller. He's an inch shorter than Antonio Gates, The same height as Vernon Davis, and Inch Shorter than Kellen Winslow and 2 inches shorter than Shockey and Tony Gonzalez. In other words, he has the height. And mind you, he's an inch taller than and weighs 14lbs more than arguably the best TE of all time Shannon Sharpe.

#2. He doesnt fight for the ball in a crowd: You must have been missing what people have been saying about this dude and the youtube videos as well. This kid catches everything, and he holds on to the ball when he takes a mean hit from a defender. The "experts" have been doing nothing BUT praising him for his offensive ability, its just his blocking that's in question, which you can teach him to block. That will come in time. What would you rather have, Anthony Becht, one of the more solid blocking TE's but has Alligator arms and wouldnt cross the middle to save his mothers life??? Keller has shown in college that he's willing to catch the ball and take the hit for a first down so where the hell do you get off talking about toughness?

#3. I get the strange feeling that you're only talking about this pick because you want to be "trendy", you know, "sound" like you know what you're talking about when you just sound like a retard to people who are actually paying attention. You and everyone else knows (because everyone's been talking about it) that the Jets havent had much luck in the draft when taking TE's. But here's the difference, The Jets in the past took TE's when they were supposed to take the best player available or a player that they needed. This isnt the case this year. They took the best player available in Gholston this year, THEN took Keller which also took care of a possession/deep threat/slot problem that the Jets have had. In otherwords it was a great pick on paper when you look at what we needed. You see, us jet fans only looked towards the WR position to fix our downfield problems.

And as we've all seen this year, there werent any WR's worth taking in the first round. You talk about Sweed but when is he ever going to give match up problems to a defense? keller is only an inch shorter than Sweed but keller is stronger, bigger and can do pretty much everything that sweed can do but better, as well as give match up problems which sweed cant do as a regular sized WR. Sweed cant take hits from linebackers, Keller can. Not only that but Keller could outrun the LB's in coverage, catch the ball up top and break tackles from CB's and Safeties because of his strength. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID IN COLLEGE. Tell me, can Sweed do that?...no. Keller is an offensive threat, period.

#3. There's nothing in this draft to be disappointed about, matter of fact, there's nothing about this offseason that you should be dissapointed about. The Jets did this offseason what Jet fans 20-30 years have been waiting for them to do. Spend money and get the players that they needed. They did exactly that. When you do sh_t like that, it tends to work out for you. You know why Gholston, Keller and the rest of these guys arent going to be a bust???? because when you put players around them that will allow them to simply do their job, It tends to happen.

Look A D'Brick. People call him a f-ing bust, yet this dude could never just be a Left Guard. Now that he has Faneca there he can simply do his job. With confidence comes chemistry comes success comes championships. You can quote that, its the truth. The Patriots built a team with a bunch of nobodies, 7 years after their first SB win these guys are one of the most feared group of guys to possibly ever put on a uniform. The Pats are doing this with late round picks (4th and 6th round picks for example) one very important 1st round pick in Richard Seymour and the rest are like supporting cast that go out there and do their damn job.

Thats why im saying with Kellen Clemens, If he's just able to go out on the field and worry about being a QB and not have to think about "is there somone being let through on my blind side" or "will this pocket collapse on me" I'll bet you a championship that we'll be in the superbowl with this exact team. That goes with every person on the field, if they do their job and not worry about anyone else this team can win 12 games this year, have a rookie of the year in Dwight Lowery and go to the SB and possibly win it.

P.S. Yeah, I said D. Lowery for rookie of the year. Check out this dudes stats. He's got the virus (he's sick) and he doesnt utilize speed to make plays, his instincts are serious. When you have a CB that doesnt need to rely on speed to recover from mistakes because his instincts keep him from making mistakes then that only means that with experience he's a going to Lock down one half of the field. Oh, and not to mention that he catches the ball like a WR, over the shoulder and all in live games! 13 picks in 25 games!!!!! and picked up in the 4th round.

You see, you're so concerned about Keller and wanting to sound "smart" that you're not even paying attention to the talent that we've picked up this year in the draft and in free agency.

You're probably one of the other people talking sh_t about Damien Woody yet dont realize that he can play every o-line position effectively...thats a proven fact buddy. And in a game where injuries is an obvious concern, having a versatile player like that is worth the money 5 fold (given five offensive line positions) that we spent to get him here.

Pay Attention and stop talking. The Jets finally got a Front Office making good moves and you're missing the obvious signs by running your damn mouth.

Please post more often. You know your stuff.

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You're probably one of the other people talking sh_t about Damien Woody yet dont realize that he can play every o-line position effectively...thats a proven fact buddy. And in a game where injuries is an obvious concern, having a versatile player like that is worth the money 5 fold (given five offensive line positions) that we spent to get him here.

Pay Attention and stop talking. The Jets finally got a Front Office making good moves and you're missing the obvious signs by running your damn mouth.

Dude, im not going to argue with you about his height, neither me nor you took his height so I'll leave that alone, however, even with that being said, it doesnt disprove my point that I originally made because if they lie about his height then the other TE's that I mentioned they could have elaborated on their height as well. It still doesnt give reason to say that he's an "undersized" TE to any extent.

You got me there D. I never consciously seen him play a football game. Given that I watch alot of football, I do believe that I've caught a few games with him playing especially with him being an ex-patriot and I am a Jets fan and I dont miss games..so that means I've seen him play atleast twice a year. And from that I can tell you that getting through that line wasnt easy, and there o-line didnt have a noticeable weakness at RG/RT when woody was there. But yes, I didnt watch a football game looking "exactly" at Woody.

As for a Jack of all trades comment that I mentioned. He's still much better than the prior Tackle that we had, so its still a major upgrade in every sense of the word given that he was the best tackle available if im correct, and with the addition of Faneca and the ability of D'brick and Mangold being able to fully concentrate on their assignments independently its still a major upgrade then what we had. He won a superbowl, I believe twice as a starting lineman. i dont care what anyone says, he's what we need. The lions didnt compliment him, the got a solid player and they rest of their line sucks...in return make his job harder and he began to suck (thats an opinion, because like you said, I've never consciously watch a Woody game). but what I can say is that when he had a line with people doing their job, he was able to do his job "effectively" given that he was a consistent starter. Now with the line that we have now, I could see him doing the same thing...as well as our Coach. Mangini think hes a good look and Mangini was in NE when woody was there so this is also something that i could use to for my point given that this isnt Mangini's first experience with him and though woody wasnt under the microscope by me, he was by NE staff which included Mangini at a point and time.

As for you, I can say the same. How do you not know that he isnt a quality RT? because he was cut by the horrible lions? when Have the lions ever did anything right outside of Barry Sanders and Jon Kitna???, oh and Williams. How many times have the jets release someone and they go to another team and dominate? Well, I think in this case, given his OVERALL career that this could be the case.

Lastly, I dont "call people out" for worrying that somone may suck. this whole team could suck and we can go 0-16, its possible but not probable. I only call out people who arent worrying but are making assumptions and try to base them as more than assumptions. I do what everyone does in forums, I combat things that I disagree with. Sometimes I could be wrong...sometimes im right. In this situation, I think that woody is a better look and was best available for the position than what the jets had and could have stuck with.

1. Dustin Keller is 6'2 1/8 " tall. They measure them at the combine. Every draft report mentions that he barely meets what is considered the minimum size requirements for an in-line TE. I like Keller and I think he was a nice pick, but you were comparing his height to Gates and Gonzalez who were both basketball players. He's big enough to play, but he's 6'2". Go by the combine height. They actually measure them, they don't ask them how tall they are.

2. You called people out. Check out what you said in the first quote above. I don't give a flying **** if you've seen Damien Woody play. You've never seen him play tackle. You claim he can "play all five line positions effectively", but he has not proven that. He played five games there and they lost four. Your basis for the guy being a good RT is that he played decent at center for the Pats five years ago.

Please show me where I said Woody would suck. I simply said he is just as likely to blow at RT as be good. I don't know he will be a horrible RT and he wasn't cut by the Lions. He was a FA they were interested in having back at the right price. The Jets gave him a pretty big contract considering his production. AFAIK, Woody never played T for the Pats and as I said before his versatility is nice, but meaningless considering he will be our starting RT. I only care if he is a good RT. He should be better than Clement, but he could be worse. Clarke was. It's not like they signed Flozell Adams.

PS: Calling out the Lions personnel moves doesn't help your point. Throwing big $$ at Woody can probably be considered one of their blunders.

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1. Dustin Keller is 6'2 1/8 " tall. They measure them at the combine. Every draft report mentions that he barely meets what is considered the minimum size requirements for an in-line TE. I like Keller and I think he was a nice pick, but you were comparing his height to Gates and Gonzalez who were both basketball players. He's big enough to play, but he's 6'2". Go by the combine height. They actually measure them, they don't ask them how tall they are.

2. You called people out. Check out what you said in the first quote above. I don't give a flying **** if you've seen Damien Woody play. You've never seen him play tackle. You claim he can "play all five line positions effectively", but he has not proven that. He played five games there and they lost four. Your basis for the guy being a good RT is that he played decent at center for the Pats five years ago.

Please show me where I said Woody would suck. I simply said he is just as likely to blow at RT as be good. I don't know he will be a horrible RT and he wasn't cut by the Lions. He was a FA they were interested in having back at the right price. The Jets gave him a pretty big contract considering his production. AFAIK, Woody never played T for the Pats and as I said before his versatility is nice, but meaningless considering he will be our starting RT. I only care if he is a good RT. He should be better than Clement, but he could be worse. Clarke was. It's not like they signed Flozell Adams.

PS: Calling out the Lions personnel moves doesn't help your point. Throwing big $$ at Woody can probably be considered one of their blunders.

Dude, ima tell you again, im not going to argue Kellers Height with you. Please understand that. i've already compared him to the basketball players that you mentioned and I ALSO compared him to the small, possibly best TE of all time Shannon Sharpe which is smaller and weighs less than Keller. So people saying that he's undersized is like saying that Wayne Chrebet would be a bum in the league. Im simply not listening to them. Listen to me, If you write about his height again I will not respond. the argument in itself is stupid. If you need me to say that "you got it" then here you go...."YOU GOT IT".

Anyway, Damien Woody Played 5 games at Tackle and they lost those 4 games, he was effective during those four games was he not? you said it yourself, they've had massive problems, so I doubt that Damien was going to Block, run the ball behind himself, or protect himself by blocking and throwing down field to himself all at the same time. Just because the Jets couldnt win consistently didnt mean that Kevin Mawae wasnt good at what he did and didnt deserve to go to the probowl all those times. He did his job very well.

As for you saying that "woody sucked", i never said that YOU said it, i was talking to someone else orginally and you actually interjected into the forum conversation with your 2 sense. i know what I said and who I was talking to which it was stated in a "general term" for example purposes. I guess you felt some type of way, so if you didnt say it you must have obviously felt it, so I guess i would have been right either way.

Big contract figuring his production. You told me not too long ago that you havent seen any of his games as well. What I told you was that i didnt consciously watch a game that he played in and concentrated on him specifically. Obviously though, given that the Jets have played the Pats numerous times and the Lions a couple I've actually seen this dude play. Anyway, you figure that the contract was too high right? Then let me ask you this...what would you have had. Not pay him the money and stick with what we had? These are the things that I argue about with some Jet fans. Jet fans want it all, but as soon as they attempt to make the team better you'll get all uncomfortable if they may have overpaid someone by 1 million or more (your opinion of course). I guess neither me nor you can argue this...we'll just have to wait till the season starts. I'll kindly agree to disagree however, but you have the right to your own opinion i guess (:fighting0050:)

Lastly, If me calling out the Lions Personnel doesnt help my point then how does you saying that Woody played 5 games at RT and lost four helps your point when he only plays 1 out of the 11 positions and its not one of the Premiere positions in the offensive set?....wouldnt that be the same thing as calling on the Lions personnel? I mean, they're on the field with him right? How can it work for you but not for me?

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Anyway, Damien Woody Played 5 games at Tackle and they lost those 4 games, he was effective during those four games was he not?

Since you have a problem with facts and my sticking my two cents in this discussion I will forget the obvious facts you dispute and simply ask you: What the **** is this supposed to mean? He played so he was effective?

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Since you have a problem with facts and my sticking my two cents in this discussion I will forget the obvious facts you dispute and simply ask you: What the **** is this supposed to mean? He played so he was effective?

Dominator, I dont mind you throwing in your two cents, Infact, though sometimes it may not seem like it, i actually encourage it. Look, you think that you're stating facts and im stating bullsh_t, It looks like we both need to just respect our point of view and agree to disagree. ima leave it alone. i've gotten numerous response from people outside of you that seem to think im quite on point...people have a difference of opinion I guess. my opinion is that you think you're stating facts when week 1 hasnt started yet. I look at it as not specifically stating facts which can only be supported by stats, but more like logical explanations when it comes to the pick ups that we've made. Thats all man. You're a good dude overall....and alot of times I do agree with you. As long as you want the jets to win then overall we're on the same page.

Peace!

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I like it when a team trades up for a player. That tells me they really did their homework on somebody and really, really want him. It certainly worked out with Revis and Harris last year. I'll give Tangini the benefit of doubt on Keller.

Like when we traded up for Robertson?

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Like when we traded up for Robertson?

OK, so every now and then it turns into a monumental and devastating mistake that takes years to rectify. I still like the courage. :)

And besides, that wasn't Tangini. They are still batting a thousand.

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OK, so every now and then it turns into a monumental and devastating mistake that takes years to rectify. I still like the courage. :)

LOL.

I hated the Keller pick as it happened. I've started to slowly but surely take to it though. I love his potential.

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Dominator, I dont mind you throwing in your two cents, Infact, though sometimes it may not seem like it, i actually encourage it. Look, you think that you're stating facts and im stating bullsh_t, It looks like we both need to just respect our point of view and agree to disagree. ima leave it alone. i've gotten numerous response from people outside of you that seem to think im quite on point...people have a difference of opinion I guess. my opinion is that you think you're stating facts when week 1 hasnt started yet. I look at it as not specifically stating facts which can only be supported by stats, but more like logical explanations when it comes to the pick ups that we've made. Thats all man. You're a good dude overall....and alot of times I do agree with you. As long as you want the jets to win then overall we're on the same page.

Peace!

I don't disagree with most of what you said. I think Keller can be an excellent player. The only fact I'm dealing with is Keller's height. It's a fact. It doesn't mean he's too short to be successful, it just means he's 6'2"(and 1/8"). In fact I had this argument with the anti-Keller crowd comparing him with Sweed. I don't know what Woody will bring to the table at tackle and neither do you. That's all I'm saying. I don't know that he will be or ever has been effective at T. You made an argumentative know it all post. I do it all the time. If some things are incorrect expect to be called on it. It happens to me all the time.

Peace? Nah, let's fight some more!

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It's the trade up for an undersized TE that bothers me. I hear what some are saying in the positive; that he could be a great slot receiver/H Back. But one of his weaknesses is that he doesn't fight for the ball in a crowd. That doesn't sound like a good over-the-middle type of guy to me. They have to be tough.

I wish we would have kept our 2nd round pick and taken L.Sweed or maybe Keller would have still been there, if they were determined to take him. Then we would have also had our early 4th round pick to use on an ILB like J. Goff or B. Bell. Or we could have taken Red Bryant, a guy who can play NT and DE in the 3/4, since he's "stout against the run". Or Mike McGlynn, a hard working G/T with high character.

I also would have loved to see us take Xavier Oman in the 6th round. He's a good sized, productive RB from a small school. He's a good inside runner who blocks well. But maybe M. Henry, the guy we did take there, will surprise and perform as well as L. Sweed will. I read somewhere that he is comparable to Greg Jennings (obviously to a lesser degree). But there is promise there.

I felt, after the draft, that we left a lot of talent on the table that was there for the taking.

look at it this way, what did they give up to get him, a 4th round draft pick, then later in the draft they get the same draft pick back. problem solved.

All i've seen is that Tangini's draft record is better than it is worse.

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typical Jets fan to find something useless to worry about.

no doubt Keller was a surprise to everyone except the Jets draft war room. hey i thought for sure when they traded up they were going to grab brandon flowers, the best CB left on the board. no use crying over spilled milk :), but i can see the wisdom in picking up a receiving TE to compliment our receiving corps rather than trying to replace them with another WR. if he's the real deal he'll make the passing and running game better. IMO it was really a brilliant move considering the Baker situation and the existing offensive players that the team is highly invested in probably for at least the next 2 years. the Keller pick will even be better if they have something in Dwight Lowery, possibly a better 4th round prospect than any TE or receiver left at that spot.

ironically, going back to the cynical Jets mode, 1st rounders have a high potential for busts. I think I read the percentage is near 50%, half the 1st round! Maybe someone could check that out. If it's true don't expect the Jets to hit on both Gholston and Keller, but if they do the FO and scouting department have to be given a ton of praise. Not only that but we might actually be able to compete for more than just a playoff berth.

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I don't disagree with most of what you said. I think Keller can be an excellent player. The only fact I'm dealing with is Keller's height. It's a fact. It doesn't mean he's too short to be successful, it just means he's 6'2"(and 1/8"). In fact I had this argument with the anti-Keller crowd comparing him with Sweed. I don't know what Woody will bring to the table at tackle and neither do you. That's all I'm saying. I don't know that he will be or ever has been effective at T. You made an argumentative know it all post. I do it all the time. If some things are incorrect expect to be called on it. It happens to me all the time.

Peace? Nah, let's fight some more!

I made an argumentive "logical" post. I just dont see how someone cannot be effective at their position if they've started 90+ percent of the games they played in. I just dont see that as at a lineman position. He's a Ten Year Vet with all this starting experience, the Jets pick him up and all of a sudden there's more of a downward possibility than an effective one???? Its not logical. Its not about "knowing it all". Its just about knowing that "though I dont know the answer to 1937483+943894*2324-39438/4345+0.23434-454= What I can tell you for sure that the answer to that his much higher than 1+1". Logic dude, not "know it all".

I feel I have the right to say that its more logical than not to look at a 10 year vet with 90% or more starts under his belt, didnt get cut and is the only active person in the NFL to have started every o-line position. Thats his resume and I believe that its much more impressive than you give it credit for.

Damn, I guess we can still fight..BRING IT ON BIIIAAATCHHH lmao! :superman::character0036:

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typical Jets fan to find something useless to worry about.

no doubt Keller was a surprise to everyone except the Jets draft war room. hey i thought for sure when they traded up they were going to grab brandon flowers, the best CB left on the board. no use crying over spilled milk :), but i can see the wisdom in picking up a receiving TE to compliment our receiving corps rather than trying to replace them with another WR. if he's the real deal he'll make the passing and running game better. IMO it was really a brilliant move considering the Baker situation and the existing offensive players that the team is highly invested in probably for at least the next 2 years. the Keller pick will even be better if they have something in Dwight Lowery, possibly a better 4th round prospect than any TE or receiver left at that spot.

ironically, going back to the cynical Jets mode, 1st rounders have a high potential for busts. I think I read the percentage is near 50%, half the 1st round! Maybe someone could check that out. If it's true don't expect the Jets to hit on both Gholston and Keller, but if they do the FO and scouting department have to be given a ton of praise. Not only that but we might actually be able to compete for more than just a playoff berth.

Good post!

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I made an argumentive "logical" post. I just dont see how someone cannot be effective at their position if they've started 90+ percent of the games they played in. I just dont see that as at a lineman position. He's a Ten Year Vet with all this starting experience, the Jets pick him up and all of a sudden there's more of a downward possibility than an effective one???? Its not logical. Its not about "knowing it all". Its just about knowing that "though I dont know the answer to 1937483+943894*2324-39438/4345+0.23434-454= What I can tell you for sure that the answer to that his much higher than 1+1". Logic dude, not "know it all".

I feel I have the right to say that its more logical than not to look at a 10 year vet with 90% or more starts under his belt, didnt get cut and is the only active person in the NFL to have started every o-line position. Thats his resume and I believe that its much more impressive than you give it credit for.

Damn, I guess we can still fight..BRING IT ON BIIIAAATCHHH lmao! :superman::character0036:

Okay, we are off the facts you disputed and back to this:

According to you starting = effective.

Ergo, according to you Adrien Clarke was an effectice LG in 2007 and Anthony Clement was an effective RT for the Jets

See, logic is simple. I'm sure somewhere on a Ravens message board somebody is making that arguement about Clarke.

Woody played five games at RT. FIVE in ten years. His resume doesn't mean **** to me. I only care if he can produce. Can he? Maybe. Reports were that he looked much better at RT than at guard, but he's no sure thing and how he played at C for the Pats doesn't mean **** now. I'll be glad to agree to disagree on the likelihood of him being a good RT. I certainly hope the old tub can cut it at RT.

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Okay, we are off the facts you disputed and back to this:

According to you starting = effective.

Ergo, according to you Adrien Clarke was an effectice LG in 2007 and Anthony Clement was an effective RT for the Jets

See, logic is simple. I'm sure somewhere on a Ravens message board somebody is making that arguement about Clarke.

Woody played five games at RT. FIVE in ten years. His resume doesn't mean **** to me. I only care if he can produce. Can he? Maybe. Reports were that he looked much better at RT than at guard, but he's no sure thing and how he played at C for the Pats doesn't mean **** now. I'll be glad to agree to disagree on the likelihood of him being a good RT. I certainly hope the old tub can cut it at RT.

Dont twist my words Dominator. We're having a very good debate here, but dont try to twist my words and say that because I stated that for the past 10 years Every team that Damien Woody has been on he's been a consistent starter and try to compare that to me saying that because Adrien Clarke started everygame he played in for the Jets that my logic has holes in it. Damien Woody has been doing this for 10 years and STARTED 90+% OF THE GAMES HE PLAYED IN. Adrien Clarke didnt play his first year with the eagles, the second year played in 14 games and only started in 4 of them. That doesnt compare very well to what Damien Woody's stats are for over a decade. Please dont begin to state stupid stuff, you've brought up some great points that I had to address. So please keep this debate interesting and dont try to twist my words around in stupidity. Atleast make the twisting make sense if you're going to do that.

For that to make sense Adrien Clarke would have had to atleast start 90 percent of his games primarily or atleast played in as many games at Damien Woody so he could have atleast the "compared gametime experience" which would have been lame but acceptable. I told you Damien's Resume, You just turned out somewhat of a bonehead response just to reply.

And as for Anthony Clement, He's been on a losing team his entire career. So looking at his background starting and looking at Woody's background starting for teams who won superbowls I really wouldnt compare the two (just in case you were going to go that route....find another one).

According to me Starting + only active player to start every position atleast once+ starting in over 90% of the games he's played in over a 10 year span + starting for a SB winning team= effective. If Adrien on Anthony has anything similar to these "effective" stats, holla at me!

P.S. YOUR logic seems to be simple. Mine is alittle more thorough/FACTUAL.

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The only player I would have taken over Keller at that spot is James Hardy and apparently he might be a thug so I can't go crazy about this draft.

Gholston is going to need to time to develop. Pass rushers aren't developed overnight. There's ALOT of technique they have to learn and the NFL plays at a much faster speed than college. Mario Williams sucked balls his first season now he looks great.

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Dont twist my words Dominator. We're having a very good debate here, but dont try to twist my words and say that because I stated that for the past 10 years Every team that Damien Woody has been on he's been a consistent starter and try to compare that to me saying that because Adrien Clarke started everygame he played in for the Jets that my logic has holes in it. Damien Woody has been doing this for 10 years and STARTED 90+% OF THE GAMES HE PLAYED IN. Adrien Clarke didnt play his first year with the eagles, the second year played in 14 games and only started in 4 of them. That doesnt compare very well to what Damien Woody's stats are for over a decade. Please dont begin to state stupid stuff, you've brought up some great points that I had to address. So please keep this debate interesting and dont try to twist my words around in stupidity. Atleast make the twisting make sense if you're going to do that.

For that to make sense Adrien Clarke would have had to atleast start 90 percent of his games primarily or atleast played in as many games at Damien Woody so he could have atleast the "compared gametime experience" which would have been lame but acceptable. I told you Damien's Resume, You just turned out somewhat of a bonehead response just to reply.

And as for Anthony Clement, He's been on a losing team his entire career. So looking at his background starting and looking at Woody's background starting for teams who won superbowls I really wouldnt compare the two (just in case you were going to go that route....find another one).

According to me Starting + only active player to start every position atleast once+ starting in over 90% of the games he's played in over a 10 year span + starting for a SB winning team= effective. If Adrien on Anthony has anything similar to these "effective" stats, holla at me!

P.S. YOUR logic seems to be simple. Mine is alittle more thorough/FACTUAL.

'

You stated starting equals effectiveness. Not me. You are fighting with your own logic and blaming "twisting your words". Clement started on the Jets when they were 10-6. Woody started for the Lions. The Lions have had one of, if not the, worst offensive lines during the time he has been on that team. Yet he lost his job. More importantly, you have not given one reason, FACTUAL or otherwise, why Woody should be good at RT. He may be a decent lineman and good for depth, but we are handing him the RT job.

I will go over this FACTUALLY so you can follow:

1. Damien Woody was benched by the Lions in the middle of last season

2. In his entire career he has played 5 games at T.

3. I doubt anybody on this board saw more than one of those 5 games.

4. Tackle and guard are different and success at one does not automatically equate with success at the other. It is usually easier to move inside than move outside.

5. I don't give a flying **** that he was on the Pats in 2003, starter or benched, he has not been on a team with more than six wins since.

You have no idea how Woody will play as a RT and I'm tired of discussing it. If you can't grasp that the amount of starts a guy has made at C and G ten years ago have no bearing on his ability to play RT I'm done.

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'

You stated starting equals effectiveness. Not me. You are fighting with your own logic and blaming "twisting your words". Clement started on the Jets when they were 10-6. Woody started for the Lions. The Lions have had one of, if not the, worst offensive lines during the time he has been on that team. Yet he lost his job. More importantly, you have not given one reason, FACTUAL or otherwise, why Woody should be good at RT. He may be a decent lineman and good for depth, but we are handing him the RT job.

I will go over this FACTUALLY so you can follow:

1. Damien Woody was benched by the Lions in the middle of last season

2. In his entire career he has played 5 games at T.

3. I doubt anybody on this board saw more than one of those 5 games.

4. Tackle and guard are different and success at one does not automatically equate with success at the other. It is usually easier to move inside than move outside.

5. I don't give a flying **** that he was on the Pats in 2003, starter or benched, he has not been on a team with more than six wins since.

You have no idea how Woody will play as a RT and I'm tired of discussing it. If you can't grasp that the amount of starts a guy has made at C and G ten years ago have no bearing on his ability to play RT I'm done.

Yeah, I stated Starting = effectivness when Its a decade as well as everything else I included dude. if you cant grasp that then let me correct your thinking.....that "decade" part should help you out.

Now, as for facts.

these are my answers for your "facts".

1. Yeah, he was benched, and then excelled at RT.

2. He also played RT pretty damn good to get out FO and Coaching staffs attention. Also, being that he's played every o-line position, he knows what to expect from the people on the side of him given that he's played those positions which serves for much more awareness on the field.

3. I doubt anyone on this board seen all 5 games, including yourself. But Coach Mangini did, and if he brought him here....it was for a great reason. can you argue with that? the past couple of seasons it seems like the people being brought in under his staff has been doing very well.

4. His situation is different. He's a jack of all trades, so he's competent at all of those positions which is proven by teams utilizing him in that way, but as a STARTER...not a backup.

5. You dont have to give a flying anything....I just have to :cool0019:. That statement doesnt take away his football experience or his ring or his understanding of the positions that he's played...and to Mangini's thought...."very well" when it comes to RT.

You can argue all you want, Im in agreement with coach. So go on...twist. He's still a Vet that no matter where he goes gets the starting job, won a superbowl, and when he got benched the team realized that they needed him and put him back in and he did better at RT than the original RT that they had (Mangini said it himself). Yeah, keep twisting.

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Yeah, I stated Starting = effectivness when Its a decade as well as everything else I included dude. if you cant grasp that then let me correct your thinking.....that "decade" part should help you out.

Now, as for facts.

these are my answers for your "facts".

1. Yeah, he was benched, and then excelled at RT.

2. He also played RT pretty damn good to get out FO and Coaching staffs attention. Also, being that he's played every o-line position, he knows what to expect from the people on the side of him given that he's played those positions which serves for much more awareness on the field.

3. I doubt anyone on this board seen all 5 games, including yourself. But Coach Mangini did, and if he brought him here....it was for a great reason. can you argue with that? the past couple of seasons it seems like the people being brought in under his staff has been doing very well.

4. His situation is different. He's a jack of all trades, so he's competent at all of those positions which is proven by teams utilizing him in that way, but as a STARTER...not a backup.

5. You dont have to give a flying anything....I just have to :cool0019:. That statement doesnt take away his football experience or his ring or his understanding of the positions that he's played...and to Mangini's thought...."very well" when it comes to RT.

You can argue all you want, Im in agreement with coach. So go on...twist. He's still a Vet that no matter where he goes gets the starting job, won a superbowl, and when he got benched the team realized that they needed him and put him back in and he did better at RT than the original RT that they had (Mangini said it himself). Yeah, keep twisting.

OK, now I see where you are coming from. I will say this: I don't think much of this FO's ability to judge who will "excel" at RT. Two years of Anthony Clement make me skeptical. IMO, they don't judge guards too well either. Remember, last year at this time three quarters of this board was stating we didn't need Kendall because "Mangini knows what Clarke can do". I hope they've learned their lesson, but hoping doesn't make it so.

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OK, now I see where you are coming from. I will say this: I don't think much of this FO's ability to judge who will "excel" at RT. Two years of Anthony Clement make me skeptical. IMO, they don't judge guards too well either. Remember, last year at this time three quarters of this board was stating we didn't need Kendall because "Mangini knows what Clarke can do". I hope they've learned their lesson, but hoping doesn't make it so.

I understand exactly what you mean about Clarke. The Pete Kendall situation was a bad one. They should have just gave him 1 million, but look what that 1 million gave us outside of a bad season.... Vernon Gholston, and Dustin Keller. I'll take it.

But to get back on point. That was a situation that Mangini learned from...as being a Head Coach for the first time...he's even stated that. Woody has experience in this game...Clarke didnt.

P.S. I dont really take what alot of the people say on this forum. There's alot of people who want Chad to come back as a Starter. Could you imagine???? lmao.

Lastly, this isnt replacing a solid player like Kendall with someone else because of money issues. This is getting a fluke out of here for a solid RT at whatever cost. I think the situation is different.

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I understand exactly what you mean about Clarke. The Pete Kendall situation was a bad one. They should have just gave him 1 million, but look what that 1 million gave us outside of a bad season.... Vernon Gholston, and Dustin Keller. I'll take it.

But to get back on point. That was a situation that Mangini learned from...as being a Head Coach for the first time...he's even stated that. Woody has experience in this game...Clarke didnt.

P.S. I dont really take what alot of the people say on this forum. There's alot of people who want Chad to come back as a Starter. Could you imagine???? lmao.

Lastly, this isnt replacing a solid player like Kendall with someone else because of money issues. This is getting a fluke out of here for a solid RT at whatever cost. I think the situation is different.

I hope he learned from the Adrien Clarke fiasco too, but there is no way to know until we see how things play out. This administration is very closed mouthed. I'm pretty sure they never even admitted going with Clarke as the only option at LG was a mistake.

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Over the long haul, I much prefer a regime that trades up a few picks and grabs its targeted players like Revis, Harris and Keller rather than an organization that stands pat and watches these guys play for other teams. If Keller turns out to be a bust, then you can complain, but the track record thus far is pretty good.

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Over the long haul, I much prefer a regime that trades up a few picks and grabs its targeted players like Revis, Harris and Keller rather than an organization that stands pat and watches these guys play for other teams. If Keller turns out to be a bust, then you can complain, but the track record thus far is pretty good.

I agree with your philosophy, but if that's how you feel that's a curious choice of avatar.

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I understand exactly what you mean about Clarke. The Pete Kendall situation was a bad one. They should have just gave him 1 million, but look what that 1 million gave us outside of a bad season.... Vernon Gholston, and Dustin Keller. I'll take it.

But to get back on point. That was a situation that Mangini learned from...as being a Head Coach for the first time...he's even stated that. Woody has experience in this game...Clarke didnt.

You are most correct ,they NEVER should have let Kendall go. They had NO plan in place to replace him and it wound up costing us the season. At least after the Kendall fiasco the FO seems to have learned from it. Look at the Baker situation. I think you'd agree that we DO have viable replacements for him already on board.

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You are most correct ,they NEVER should have let Kendall go. They had NO plan in place to replace him and it wound up costing us the season. At least after the Kendall fiasco the FO seems to have learned from it. Look at the Baker situation. I think you'd agree that we DO have viable replacements for him already on board.

The mistake wasn't in releasing Kendall, it was simply the fact they had no plan "B". Clarke was a joke.

You are correct that the Baker situation is different in that they have a replacement. Not in Keller, he is more a WR/H-back then a TE, but in Franks. Franks don't forget is only 30 YO. He has been injured the last two seasons which hindered his production. If he can stay healthy, Baker will be spending a good deal of the season on the bench.

If Baker had a brain in his head, he would get into camp and play for the $800,000 he has already been paid, compete with Franks and show that he is worth more money. He is acting like 43 catches is a Pro Bowl kind of season. it's not.

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The mistake wasn't in releasing Kendall, it was simply the fact they had no plan "B". Clarke was a joke.

You are correct that the Baker situation is different in that they have a replacement. Not in Keller, he is more a WR/H-back then a TE, but in Franks. Franks don't forget is only 30 YO. He has been injured the last two seasons which hindered his production. If he can stay healthy, Baker will be spending a good deal of the season on the bench.

If Baker had a brain in his head, he would get into camp and play for the $800,000 he has already been paid, compete with Franks and show that he is worth more money. He is acting like 43 catches is a Pro Bowl kind of season. it's not.

Of course it's not, but check out the contract Ben Utecht got coming off his 30 catch season.

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Of course it's not, but check out the contract Ben Utecht got coming off his 30 catch season.

Utecht was a free agent. Baker is not.

Also unlikely to get more $ (when he's got 2 yrs remaining on his 4 yr deal) from a team that just picked up a former pro bowler and drafted a player in round 1 who both play TE.

Tannenbaum may have actually learned something over the past 12 months.

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Utecht was a free agent. Baker is not.

Also unlikely to get more $ (when he's got 2 yrs remaining on his 4 yr deal) from a team that just picked up a former pro bowler and drafted a player in round 1 who both play TE.

Tannenbaum may have actually learned something over the past 12 months.

All true, I'm just pointing out that his production wouldn't exactly preclude a big contract.

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All true, I'm just pointing out that his production wouldn't exactly preclude a big contract.

This FO almost did that already with Jeb Putzier.

I still remember people griping about the upcoming doom because we didn't get this up & coming "playmaker" before the '06 season. Or how our failure to get him was an example of this team's incompetence.

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