The Big Blue Screw

[jetophile]

Without a PSL, the ticket price would probably still be in the 265 range and I have no rights to transfer. I cant decide what happens to my seats.

Not to sound dumb here, but I have no idea why people say this. I really don't. Since when do I have no right to transfer? I've always been under the impression that I can transfer my ownership to whoever I want by naming said persons and signing the back of my renewal stub. At least the last time I looked.

My Daddy transferred ownership to me in just this way in 1994 when he got sick. Did it change when I wasn't looking...?

[Sharrow]

The Big Blue Screw

Posted at 7:59 pm in Featured Editorials, Jet Moses by Max

By Jet Moses

Recently the NY Giants announced fees for

[Jet Moses]

I'm sure he means citizens who couldn't care less about the NFL.

Yep. And Jay "Flanders" Cross I meant Jay "Smithers" Cross.

[Lil Bit Special]

Not to sound dumb here, but I have no idea why people say this. I really don't. Since when do I have no right to transfer? I've always been under the impression that I can transfer my ownership to whoever I want by naming said persons and signing the back of my renewal stub. At least the last time I looked.

My Daddy transferred ownership to me in just this way in 1994 when he got sick. Did it change when I wasn't looking...?

No it hasnt changed yet, but the time to transfer them this year has passed. And I seriously doubt the jets will allow their fans to transfer their tickets before next season after they announce the PSL's.

Its more looking into the future of what is likely going to happen. Look at the Pats. Their transfer fee is outrageous. We are very lucky to have no transfer fee but that free ride will be over soon. If by some reason the Jets dont force everyone to buy PSL's, those who dont have PSL's will have very limited options when it comes to transferring or selling their tickets.

[bitonti]

These tax laws encourage corporations who can give two sh*ts about football to buy the tickets for the write-off and little else. So maybe the seats are empty, maybe their filled with out of towners who got the tickets for "free".

I think that is what Woody wants, 25,000 first timers visiting the stadium. Those are the people who spend the money on all the BS. It'll be like Disneyworld, they can ride the big Pepsi roller coaster.

That's one possibility, I have a little bit of faith that NY based corporations will have NYJ fans to fill those seats. Alot of Jets fans work for a living. 25k first timers is a little much.

but assuming that's exactly correct Moses, ya know what? The way this crowd has behaved over the last 2 decades, 25k first timers would be a more educated, more polite crowd. Probably wouldn't cheer loudly when the Jets are on offense for example.

[Jet Moses]

That's one possibility, I have a little bit of faith that NY based corporations will have NYJ fans to fill those seats. Alot of Jets fans work for a living. 25k first timers is a little much.

but assuming that's exactly correct Moses, ya know what? The way this crowd has behaved over the last 2 decades, 25k first timers would be a more educated, more polite crowd. Probably wouldn't cheer loudly when the Jets are on offense for example.

I hear ya. I understand the changing demographics and I understand why Woody would encourage that. From his perspective it makes perfect business sense. He is not running a charity.

But he is throwing his loyal fans in the trash, who created the leverage for him in the first place.

Pretty scummy thing to do.

[flushingjet]

Apologies to a very fine person, Jet Moses, but in general, I can't agree.

Sports teams are big money spinners for states and cities, not drags on local economies like welfare bums, summer school lunches, medicaid for illegals and other entitlements that pick taxpayers pockets that have no ROI or redeeming social value. Let's try trimming some of those back before folks try make it just as hard to exit the new Meadowlands as the old.

For illustration, Harrison Goldin, former NYC controlller lamented the yearly loss of revenue from Jets games at $45M/year back in 1983...how much do you think the Jets/Giants are worth to local economies 25 years later? Whatever investments NJ makes for Meadowlands infrastructure is just a small rebate on the income they currently receive and will receive for years to come on tolls, tickets, local business sales -dining, hotel, gas, food, liquor, body scrubs, what have you.

There is some misplaced concern here for the people who don't like football. Is this the best Jets Football forum on earth or have I wandered into the Newark Philharmonic forum? The "longhairs" are very happy to have funding for their loss leader hobbies/public projects but are the first to try to block what you as a football fan want at every turn. Look at the WSS opposition-NIMBY, because trannie hookers migratory patterns could be affected!

So many of the false notions from others are repeated so often theyre almost urban legends;

for example:

PSLs for Jets tickets won't entitle you to Giants tickets; does buying a Jets season plan currently entitle you to Giants games and vice versa?

PSL value has nothing to do with its expiry date-

Try: the demand for your seat based on any number of factors including team performance YTY

Youre a season ticket holder now, you have those rights as long as the Jets play in GS until you decline to renew, then if youre forced to accept the PSL in the move or lose the ticket rights to NM and you pay the fee, you still own that right and have 1st dibs on the renewal, until the very moment it expires and then beyond that if you or your successors pay to extend them. Like real estate, throughout the entire period of ownership decline or appreciation in value is possible but its not like buying a car where value is lost when driving off the lot-this is not hard to grasp!

Here's an interesting tidbit though-Kyle Burks, founder of SeasonTicketRights.com, an online marketplace for buying and selling PSLs, told TicketNews (www.ticketnews.com) that he thought the Giants PSL price was maybe $2,000 to $3,000 below market value and could have even been more than that.

On the Jets as 2nd class citizen to the Giants victimhood theme-if media outlets choose to defer to the Giants in referrring to the new stadium because they are biased towards the Giants its not my problem-I could care less. The joint venture is known as New Meadowlands Stadium Corp., but I understand the confusion in finding information in that the Jets portion is referred to alternately as "Jets Stadium LLC" or "Jets Development LLC" or "Jets Stadium Development LLC". That should help with the Googling.

Ultimately, some of the statements dont mean much-what does it matter if Citigroup pays for naming rights for the Mets while simultaneously assisting in managing the Jets financing? Citigroup has enterprise level and retail businesses. Sure, Citigroup may be faltering a bit lately. That's Citigroup's problem. If you have a mortgage or credit card debt with Citigroup, and Citigroup fails itll be resold to someone else and it doesnt remove your obligation. For the record, Royal Bank of Canada has also lent the Jets $.

****

People pay tolls, license fees and taxes on top of financing their cars, homes, etc.

And somehow, thats acceptable...people who pay club membership fees for golf, tennis, gyms, etc also pay greens fees and equipment fees. We do so more readily for those because we understand those are relative luxuries. Is *everyone* who belongs to a gym

a disinterested "corporate" type?

Sure Woody/Mara could find a way to Kraft-ily finance it all without PSLs. Then there'd be $40 parking to start, ($500 for army surplus vehicles) $25 hot dogs and beers $150 for nosebleed rows and we'd be singing the big blues in a different key.

[Green DNA]

Apologies to a very fine person, Jet Moses, but in general, I can't agree.

Of course Jetmo is more than capable of defending his own position, but some of the points that you raise are off base.

So many of the false notions from others are repeated so often theyre almost urban legends;

for example:

PSLs for Jets tickets won't entitle you to Giants tickets; does buying a Jets season plan currently entitle you to Giants games and vice versa?

No, but now we are not paying for a PSL or paying "extra" for the right to then pay for our tickets, we are simply buying Jets tickets. The original idea behind a PSL was that you would "buy" (actually lease) the rights to the seat which would entitle you to the right of first refusal on any events in the building, (concerts etc.). That seems more reasonable. Somehow through time, that right seemed to fade, especially when you have a basketball and a hockey team playing in the same building or in our case two NFL teams. Without that extra "right" a PSL is basically a money grab, nothing more, nothing less. Why a building a stadium should be our obligation is beyond me.

PSL value has nothing to do with its expiry date-

Try: the demand for your seat based on any number of factors including team performance YTY

This may be true in the short run, but over time the value of your seat will decrease as the number of years till expiration grows closer. Why pay a premium for something that has a limited shelf life. The exception may be for lower priced PSL's ($1k or so) where someone feels that they can just allocate the cost of the PSL to the cost of their tickets.

Youre a season ticket holder now, you have those rights as long as the Jets play in GS until you decline to renew, then if youre forced to accept the PSL in the move or lose the ticket rights to NM and you pay the fee, you still own that right and have 1st dibs on the renewal, until the very moment it expires and then beyond that if you or your successors pay to extend them. Like real estate, throughout the entire period of ownership decline or appreciation in value is possible but its not like buying a car where value is lost when driving off the lot-this is not hard to grasp!

As far as the car comment, please see above. Paying to extend the PSL would just hammer home the point that this is a depreciating asset. Just try to sell the PSL as the expiration date comes closer. At that point it is certainly a buyers market. In addition, assuming you hold the tickets for an extended period, are you not at the mercy of a money grubbing Woody jacking up the prices on a regular basis? At that point, people will bail as the total cost passes their threshold for pain. The inflated ticket costs will also shrink the secondary market. If you think prices will stay relatively stable, you are living in a fantasy. Woodty's track record is one of constant increases.

Here's an interesting tidbit though-Kyle Burks, founder of SeasonTicketRights.com, an online marketplace for buying and selling PSLs, told TicketNews (www.ticketnews.com) that he thought the Giants PSL price was maybe $2,000 to $3,000 below market value and could have even been more than that.

IMO, the Super Bowl champs (kills me to say the words) would command more than the team that hasn't won a SB in 39 years especially considering the size of their waiting list comared to the rapidly shrinking Jets waiting list

People pay tolls, license fees and taxes on top of financing their cars, homes, etc.

And somehow, thats acceptable...

Bad analogy, they are not acceptable, nobody wants to pay these things, but we have no choice as these are necessities.

people who pay club membership fees for golf, tennis, gyms, etc also pay greens fees and equipment fees. We do so more readily for those because we understand those are relative luxuries. Is *everyone* who belongs to a gym

a disinterested "corporate" type?

Jets fans are not all country club members, if that's what the Jets want then jack those PSL's up higher. As far as regular greens fees or gym memeberships, those are the same thing as buying tickets to a game. You don't pay a fee up front and then pay again to go through the turnstile at the golf course or the gym. Why, because you already paid once!

Sure Woody/Mara could find a way to Kraft-ily finance it all without PSLs. Then there'd be $40 parking to start, ($500 for army surplus vehicles) $25 hot dogs and beers $150 for nosebleed rows and we'd be singing the blues in a different key.

Before long all of these will come true anyway. The idea is to suck as much cash out of your pocket as possible. Do you honestly believe that PSL's are going to prevent this? The "enhanced gameday experience" will be used as justification to ream the fans even more. They don't want anyone drinking beer that they bought for $20 a case at Beverage Barn. They want to charge $10+ a pop in the stadium. I'll bet you a beer that when the new stadium opens, beers will be $12 minimum.

.

[Jet Moses]

I understand the confusion in finding information in that the Jets portion is referred to alternately as "Jets Stadium LLC" or "Jets Development LLC" or "Jets Stadium Development LLC". That should help with the Googling.

I don't google, I Yahoo. Gooble is for commies.

Sure Woody/Mara could find a way to Kraft-ily finance it all without PSLs. Then there'd be $40 parking to start, ($500 for army surplus vehicles) $25 hot dogs and beers $150 for nosebleed rows and we'd be singing the big blues in a different key

FlushingJet, do you really think for 5 minutes that Woody still won't charge $40 dollars for parking in spite of the PSL fee?

Since he's owned the team, ticket prices have increased 40%.

Cut it any way you like, that gouging.

Anyway I didn't respond to any of your other points because you are correct-- and if this thing takes off then more power to Woody and the people that were able to buy in.

But if it don't--- and I'm a bear in this market--- then he shot himself in the foot.

I think that you are a very fine person, too (and a JI political forum legend, I mean, you are Elvis to me!) and I understand your point of view and I accept it---

But it doesn't mean I have to like it. It really doesn't matter to me one way or another as I'm 5 months away from leaving the Peoples Republic of NJ forever.

I hope things work out for everybody banking on that it does.

Peace.

[Bugg]

That's one possibility, I have a little bit of faith that NY based corporations will have NYJ fans to fill those seats. Alot of Jets fans work for a living. 25k first timers is a little much.

but assuming that's exactly correct Moses, ya know what? The way this crowd has behaved over the last 2 decades, 25k first timers would be a more educated, more polite crowd. Probably wouldn't cheer loudly when the Jets are on offense for example.

I understand-the spectre of guys peeing on flaming Campbell's Soup giveway hats and "Show us your ___" is always there. And I suspect Johnson had no problem playing up the later story to show us all to be oafs.

No matter-on such economic assumptions, i.e., th perpetual upward graph, the capitalist business cycle repealed, havs fortunes been so lost.

Let's go through it again-NYC property taxes are going up.

Rises in oil costs are going to cause rampant inflation.

Mortgages are getting harder to come by for everyone.

In such circumstances, even Masters of the Universe will have to cut back.And one of the first things to go will be splurging on sports events.

Wall Street, the engine of this whole area economy, is dropping jobs left and right. I heard a neighbor recount how her 2 sons stopped taking vacation in their financial services jobs in fear of being fired, only to be laid off anyway. Ther's more than a bit of data to back this up.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=anqd9vuex5bU&refer=home

What's more-this is a different economy than say 1985. Many of these jos aren't coming back to this area when the cycle upticks. Why pay NYC costs when you can farm it out to cheaper locales here and abroad, or use technology to eliminate your workforce costs?

I'd bet anyone a steak dinner that for all this blather about Lebron going to the Brooklyn Nets, that arena never gets built and the Nets will someday soon call the Rock in Newark home, by default.

Simply, this economy sucks donkey balls.

Johnson will get PSLs, but he'd better be careful.Smaller, not larger. Unless he wants someday soon to be covering upper deck seats with canvas like th Jags to pretend he has a sellout. Why insist on running down and effing a few cows and watch the others flee, when ,as the daddy bull says, you could walk down and eff'em all?

[Maxman]

If the Jets charge more than the Giants I reserve the right to go bananas and revoke all previous "pro-PSL" comments. It would be outlandish.

They are going to. My seat is more expensive for the Jets than it is for the defending champion NY Giants.

[flushingjet]

Alright maybe I need to rephrase this again.

If you own a PSL it'll always have some current market value whether its day 1

or 1 day from "expiry". Could be higher, could be lower. Depends on many factors.

I'd bet on higher value long term myself but it's not because I want to pay it or want it to be

higher...just assuming thats the way itll go based on the fact that today demand exceeds supply.

PSL value doesn't decline because its going to "expire", no one knows if

the owner will renew or not, they might renew at the 11th hour. Also, if you dont renew, a would be buyer of your PSL doesnt necessarily get your PSL from the Jets if you dont sell it to them, itll go back in the PSL pool for someone who either asked for an upgrade or someone on the wait list. (BTW I have no freakin' idea what process the Jets have ever used to "upgrade" anyones seats)

Furthermore, no one has experienced paying gym, beach, or local town golf club membership fees (ie like a PSL) necessary to enter/use facilities and then paying extra for related equipment, towels, court fees, greens fees? (ie like Game Tickets after PSLs are paid)

I'm just resigned to it because a) I'm probably still going to live in the area for the next 5-10 years and I will still want to attend games and have 1st dibs on my familiar seat for playoffs etc mine, in the upper uppers, are likely not to cost much PSL-wise.

I'm firmly in the camp of those sick of being surrounded by non-Jets fans or their surrogates/customers so I'm looking at PSLs positively strictly on the basis of their being the vehicle to evict the Giants/speculator fan. I wanted them gone from Jets games yesterday-let them choose between keeping Giants seats and polluting our stands.

Otherwise I dont find it virtuous, or not, to want to, or not want to, attend Jets games.

Hopefully the people who feel themselves being squeezed out or wont pay PSLs on some high minded principle but in their hearts still want to go will find some way to share tickets with others and continue going, even if its part time.

I appreciate very much that at least here you can argue about this a little more gentlemanly than the old nuthouse, where posters/mods threaten/insult you if you disagree with their egocentric visions or *shudder* make fun of their dumba$$ nics.

[Jet Moses]

I

Wall Street, the engine of this whole area economy, is dropping jobs left and right. I heard a neighbor recount how her 2 sons stopped taking vacation in their financial services jobs in fear of being fired, only to be laid off anyway. Ther's more than a bit of data to back this up.

From Tokyo to London to New York, financial companies announced plans to shed more than 83,000 jobs since last July as revenue and compensation pools evaporated, according to figures compiled by Bloomberg...

By way of a personal anectdote, I recently called up the office at Deutsche Bank where I used to work. I wanted to tell the Korean bitch who made my life suck while I was there to go f herself with a garden hose, and guess what, she wasn't there. She got let go!

I appreciate very much that at least here you can argue about this a little more gentlemanly than the old nuthouse, where posters/mods threaten/insult you if you disagree with their egocentric visions or *shudder* make fun of their dumba$$ nics.

I appreciate you coming by and voicing your opinion.

There is no "right and wrong" here, really. It's a divisive issue, and on either side people are not going to want to hear the legitimate points the other side makes.

Like I said, I have no real truck in this, as I'm moving down south. Woody has calculated he is going to be able to replace a very significant percentage of loyal fans who won't or can't pay the PSL's. If it works, hooray for him, if not--

I'll call his office and tell him to go f himself with a garden hose.

[Jet Moses]

They are going to. My seat is more expensive for the Jets than it is for the defending champion NY Giants.

You sound bitter, Bubba.

[Jet Moses]

.

I think a fair system would be this---

If you purchase a PSL, you have the right to redeem it for the same value from the Jets plus a 3% cola.

And if the Jets can turn around and sell it to somebody else with a markup, hooray for them.

I think the purchaser of the PSL should have this option: retain the right to sell it back to the Jets when you no longer want to be a season ticket holder.

[Gainzo]

I don't google, I Yahoo. Gooble is for commies.

Sure Woody/Mara could find a way to Kraft-ily finance it all without PSLs. Then there'd be $40 parking to start, ($500 for army surplus vehicles) $25 hot dogs and beers $150 for nosebleed rows and we'd be singing the big blues in a different key

FlushingJet, do you really think for 5 minutes that Woody still won't charge $40 dollars for parking in spite of the PSL fee?

Since he's owned the team, ticket prices have increased 40%.

Cut it any way you like, that gouging.

Spot on. For the very small % of Jets fans defending PSL's none of them mention the fact that ticket prices will increase.

FlushingJet: Parking is $40 at Gillette and was around the $30 mark in the late '90's. Parking has always been expensive at Foxboro and dirt cheap at the Meadowlands.

Concessions are probably the same. A 16 ounce Bud Light was $6.75 last year at Gillette.

[cferraro]

I have heard lots of clever names for PSL's. Please Send Loot and Plain Simple Larceny. Here is what I have come up with.

P.S.L. stands for Probably Should Leave. Leaving is what many season ticket holders and the 10,500 people on the waiting list will be forced to do.

I have spent the last two hours reading many message board posts. I have yet to find someone that believes PSL's are a good thing. It also seems that many current season ticket holders will be giving up their seats. This whole situation is making me sick. I am 32 years old and I have been a Jet fan since the 80's. I did not get to go to my first game until 1999 when they won against the Jags in the championship game. Great first experience right? I love going to football games. There is nothing like being at the stadium for opening day kickoff, or Monday night (I was at the Midnight Miracle). I am on the waiting list (5 years now) but in the meantime, I have been sharing season tickets with a friend. Sadly, like many other people, we will probably not be able to afford buying these PSL's.

We have all spent season after season in a state of disappointment as we have watched this second rate team break our hearts. I thought I wouldn't be able to take any more after the 1-15 season, but Wayne Chrebet (the one bright spot of the team) kept me going. There was more hope when Bill Parcells came back to town. 9-7 was a great improvement (surely things will get better). The club record 12-4 wasn't enough for a championship. In normal Jets fashion, they blew it when it counted. It's okay though, Elway retired and they still have the same roster (Superbowl here we come)! After Bill Parcells played Russian Roulette with the back-up quarterback position in 1999 and Vinny went down, I thought I was finished with this team. The whole Bill Belidick "head coach for a day" thing really had me at the end of my ropes. From 12-4 to 8-8. From 9-7, missing three shots at a wildcard berth to 10-6 and a playoff loss to the Raiders. 9-7 and snuffed again in the playoffs by the Raiders. 6-10, are you kidding me? Chad goes down and 40 year old Vinny is the only guy we have? Here's our chance at 10-6 and round two of the playoffs but wait, the kicker sucks. Sorry, no Superbowl this year. Next year doesn't look so good either. Why you ask? Because we are 4-12. Chad goes down again and we still do not have a solid back-up QB. Some lessons are never learned. But at last, Man-Genius is here. 10-6 again but the Pats show us what happens when a second rate team meets a true champion in the playoffs. It's okay though. We have something to build on for next year. Oh wait a second, lets give one of the best offensive linemen in the NFL a nice large c*ck in the ass with no lube. We'll pay him the lowest salary in the NFL for his position, and then ignore the situation. That worked out well for us right. It got us a nice 6-10 season to build on for this year, yet another quarterback competition (that's new and exciting), and a shinny new stadium that is supposed to convince us that this team is worth the 650 million dollars the "Great" Woody Johnson paid for it. Folks, if you think we're being duped with these outrageous PSL prices for an under achieving team, it's nothing compared to the ass ramming the Hess family provided old Woody.

The "Jest's" might be laughing at us now, but we will be laughing in the long run. These PSL's might be necessary and justified for teams with their own stadiums, and with a winning history, but not for perennial losers sharing with another team. In the end, no one, not even the doctors, lawyers, and bankers, will spend this kind of money for a team that does not win. You can put a pile of sh*t in a nice box, wrap it in pretty paper, and put a big bow on it. You can't change that it is a pile of sh*t. I can finally say this and mean it. If this organization goes through with their current PSL plan, or any other price plan that does not reflect the best interest of the fans, I am done with this team. It is not worth my time to watch a team that has no pride in the way they play, or the way they do business. I figure, if I spend 3 hours watching each game, in forty years I would have wasted 80 days of my life caring about something that doesn't give two sh*ts back. I have had enough. Eric Mangini is a Patriot any way you slice it, Woody is another word for an erect penis, Mike Tannenbaum is an ass because he truly believes players that are a "good value" and have "character" win championships (I think the Pats prove the contrary to that one). This team has no hope. Get out before the "Jet' crashes my friends. Woody took the last parachute and is giving us all the middle finger.