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Does Herm Deserve Another Quarterback?


bfett81
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Tell me about how he destroyed the Jets offensive line. I'm all ears.

He didn't destroy it, per say, he neglected it, and didn't find suitable replacements as our vets aged. There was no depth, and no youth, and the guys just got old. It's partially the GMs fault as well, but these things don't exist in a vacuum, and they're mutual decisions.

We let our best players go to Washington and the Giants, and did nothing about it. Instead, we traded for Doug Jolley and Drafted Justin Miller and Mike Nugent.

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Herm never had a chance in KC. We had no young talent to begin with.

Did you know Adrian Jones is our RG?

A quick look at draft history tells me that you took a lineman:

06 in the 6th round.

07 in the 6th round

08 you finally took Brandon Albert in round 1.

Free agency:

06 you brought in Kyle Turley coming of a 2 year suspension to fill the hole of Willie Roaf and John Welbourn.

07 you did not bring in a single offensive linemen.

08 after Turley retires, you do nothing but sign a UDFA Center.

And, you're wondering why your QBs get the crap kicked out of them? Really?

You want to blame it all on Peterson, fine, but I think we both know that's Herm is a factor in these decisions too.

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A quick look at draft history tells me that you took a lineman:

06 in the 6th round.

07 in the 6th round

08 you finally took Brandon Albert in round 1.

Free agency:

06 you brought in Kyle Turley coming of a 2 year suspension to fill the hole of Willie Roaf and John Welbourn.

07 you did not bring in a single offensive linemen.

08 after Turley retires, you do nothing but sign a UDFA Center.

And, you're wondering why your QBs get the crap kicked out of them? Really?

You want to blame it all on Peterson, fine, but I think we both know that's Herm is a factor in these decisions too.

Whoa, I'm blaming it on Herm, most definitely.

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Herm did so destroy our OLine!

We had two great, young offensive lineman under Herm (Randy Thomas and Kareem McKenzie). We let them both leave in free agency so we could sign aging, fan (and Herm) favorites like Wayne Chrebet and Curtis Martin to big new contracts, and sign a promising (yet still unproven) QB to the richest contract in NFL history up until the time.

Thomas and McKenzie both continued being great and made Pro Bowls after they left, Wayne, Curtis, and Chad, outside a big 2004 from Curtis went on to do nothing.

In that same timeframe, he let Laveraneus Coles and James Farrior walk also (who both went on to be Pro Bowlers). Herm is so loyal to the old veterans that he let the good young talent who you are supposed to build a team around (McKenzie, Thomas, Coles, Farrior, etc) walk away with nothing to show for it but other aging, not as talented veterans to fill in for them.

Edited by JMJ
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Herm did so destroy our OLine!

We had two great, young offensive lineman under Herm (Randy Thomas and Kareem McKenzie). We let them both leave in free agency so we could sign aging, fan (and Herm) favorites like Wayne Chrebet and Curtis Martin to big new contracts, and sign a promising (yet still unproven) QB to the richest contract in NFL history up until the time.

Thomas and McKenzie both continued being great and made Pro Bowls after they left, Wayne, Curtis, and Chad, outside a big 2004 from Curtis went on to do nothing.

In that same timeframe, he let Laveraneus Coles and James Farrior walk also (who both went on to be Pro Bowlers). Herm is so loyal to the old veterans that he let the good young talent who you are supposed to build a team around (McKenzie, Thomas, Coles, Farrior, etc) walk away with nothing to show for it but other aging, not as talented veterans to fill in for them.

I can't stand Herm and never could. But most of these things are not accurate:

- I never got the impression that Chrebet liked Herm at all. I think his and Martin's last contracts were PR moves by newbie Bradway who didn't want to seem like he was getting rid of fan favorites. Regardless, I don't see Herm injecting his 2 cents into contract negotiations, directing Bradway to give a 29 year-old Curtis Martin the richest contract ever for a RB (coming off his first Jets contract which was then the richest RB contract in NFL history). Not saying Herm objected to it, but I can't imagine his opinion mattering too much when it came to contract terms.

- McKenzie wanted a $10M SB that would have made him I think the #2 highest-paid OLman in NFL history at that time.

- In their entire careers, neither Thomas nor McKenzie has ever made a pro bowl with the Jets or Giants or Redskins.

- Losing Coles was 100% on Bradway. I will never believe that Bradway consulted with Herm to determine whether Coles should get a $1.3M tender offer (1st rd compensation) instead of $1.8M (1st and a 3rd compensation). I will kill Herm for his stupidity of indirectly slighting Coles by his statement that we need to get bigger at WR (after the Oakland game) when Coles was not under contract for the following season. Coles has a major inferiority complex, which a HC should be aware of, and that's just a stupid "it ain't my fault" statement on his part anyway.

- Pennington's contract was not the richest at the time. Peyton Manning's was. Pennington's was #2. And it sure did stink like #2. But while I'm sure Edwards wanted Chad locked up at the time (understandable enough for any HC), the contract was put together by Bradway & Tannenbaum with Pennington's agent Tom Condon (who, incidentally, is also Peyton Manning's agent).

There are endless things to kill Herm for on the board. But these are mostly GM moves that you've outlined. Moves that eventually led to said-GM getting demoted to head scout.

Edited by Sperm Edwards
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One thing I don't understand.

Croyle was drafted in the third round. Then the next year, they handed the team to him, after giving him game experience his first year.

If they thought he was the QB of the future, why didn't they draft him first round?

If they didn't think he was that good, why build your team around him?

Croyle was prominently mentioned in all the draft evaluations, it's not like he was a surprise pick nobody ever heard of. Everybody knew who he was, they just didn't think he was worth drafting high. Even the Chiefs didn't think he was that good, or they wouldn't have let him slip to the third.

Trent Green was old at the time. You wait until the third round to see who's left to select your 10 year starter???

Edited by kelticwizard
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Herm did so destroy our OLine!

We had two great, young offensive lineman under Herm (Randy Thomas and Kareem McKenzie). We let them both leave in free agency so we could sign aging, fan (and Herm) favorites like Wayne Chrebet and Curtis Martin to big new contracts, and sign a promising (yet still unproven) QB to the richest contract in NFL history up until the time.

Thomas and McKenzie both continued being great and made Pro Bowls after they left, Wayne, Curtis, and Chad, outside a big 2004 from Curtis went on to do nothing.

In that same timeframe, he let Laveraneus Coles and James Farrior walk also (who both went on to be Pro Bowlers). Herm is so loyal to the old veterans that he let the good young talent who you are supposed to build a team around (McKenzie, Thomas, Coles, Farrior, etc) walk away with nothing to show for it but other aging, not as talented veterans to fill in for them.

Was sad that it was given Thomas and McKenzie wouldn't be resigned. No real neogtiations, just "see ya!"Both were looking for big bucks, but Bradway barely made an inquiry. And then found themlseves immediaterly signing Szott/Kendall for serious cake anyway. Chrebet was shocked he was even offered his last contract. High quality cap management, along with Bradway and Herm financing the retirements of any NFL defensive backs and lienmen who were over 35 and looking for one last payday. But we did get "Dear Marko" out of all this, and that's a big positive. Edited by Bugg
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Interesting debate and I tend to lean in favor of the argument that Herm neglects an OLine, BUT, I think that was more Bradway's doing than Herm's. I don't think Herm had much imput on player retention or selection with the Jets. Heck, he couldn't even get the godfather of his son to sign with the team.

That said, I think Herm is a buffoon who had a chance to be a good HC but let his early success with Parcell's players make him believe his methods were successful method. But besides that, the guy has hardly ever had a freakin' healthy QB. It's striking how nearly every year his backup sees significant time.

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Interesting debate and I tend to lean in favor of the argument that Herm neglects an OLine, BUT, I think that was more Bradway's doing than Herm's. I don't think Herm had much imput on player retention or selection with the Jets. Heck, he couldn't even get the godfather of his son to sign with the team.

That said, I think Herm is a buffoon who had a chance to be a good HC but let his early success with Parcell's players make him believe his methods were successful method. But besides that, the guy has hardly ever had a freakin' healthy QB. It's striking how nearly every year his backup sees significant time.

I strongly disagree. The Chiefs' personel moves have almost been identical to the Jets under Herm and Peterson has a history of taking care of his OL, yet this Chiefs line is a disaster.

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I strongly disagree. The Chiefs' personel moves have almost been identical to the Jets under Herm and Peterson has a history of taking care of his OL, yet this Chiefs line is a disaster.

Peterson is like a 100 years old, you really think Herm has as much pull on him?

The Chiefs OLine was on the precipice of disaster BEFORE Herm got there if I'm not mistaken. Remember, before Herm signed, they were going to lose 2 stud OLinemen. That changed everything.

That said, I don't think Herm is blameless, just that I don't think he has the pull with the GM that you guys think he does.

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Peterson is like a 100 years old, you really think Herm has as much pull on him?

The Chiefs OLine was on the precipice of disaster BEFORE Herm got there if I'm not mistaken. Remember, before Herm signed, they were going to lose 2 stud OLinemen. That changed everything.

That said, I don't think Herm is blameless, just that I don't think he has the pull with the GM that you guys think he does.

The Chiefs had the best OL in the league when Herm arrived. Old - but the best. Still they decided to not replace any of them and instead turn their attention to over 35 year old CB's, crappy rookie DE's and a three technique DT that has yet to make a tackle this year. Going back to the Schott days the Chiefs OL has been one of the best in the league. There is no doubt Herm is calling the personel shots and did here too or Bradway wouldn't still be on the payroll.

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The Chiefs had the best OL in the league when Herm arrived. Old - but the best. Still they decided to not replace any of them and instead turn their attention to over 35 year old CB's, crappy rookie DE's and a three technique DT that has yet to make a tackle this year. Going back to the Schott days the Chiefs OL has been one of the best in the league. There is no doubt Herm is calling the personel shots and did here too or Bradway wouldn't still be on the payroll.

True. The neglect is having no plan to replace the studs that were leaving. When it happens in 2 places and the 1 common denominator is Herm, Herm's culpability is hard to ignore.

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True. The neglect is having no plan to replace the studs that were leaving. When it happens in 2 places and the 1 common denominator is Herm, Herm's culpability is hard to ignore.

That's all I'm saying. He even drafted a WR in the first round that has a very similar background to the one that was drafted here. It is clear how Herm likes to build his teams and it's not a good plan.

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That's all I'm saying. He even drafted a WR in the first round that has a very similar background to the one that was drafted here. It is clear how Herm likes to build his teams and it's not a good plan.

I really hate "system" HCs. They get early success and think their "system" works, while completely disregarding the multiple of variables as to why they were successful in the first place.

Coaches like to recreate what they had in the past and it hardly ever works. It's not just in the NFL, it's also in the NBA (not so much in the NHL & MLB). Mike D'Antoni is trying to recreate the Suns although they don't have the players. That's idiotic. That's why I think in both the NFL & NBA, Pat Riley was top 3 best "coaches" I ever saw because he changed as a coach based on the talent he had.

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True. The neglect is having no plan to replace the studs that were leaving. When it happens in 2 places and the 1 common denominator is Herm, Herm's culpability is hard to ignore.

One of his interviews in the off-season last year said he hadn't given it a moment's thought (or something like that) as to whether or not Shields would return. No thought to the return of his starting, pro-bowl, HOF-lock, all-time-great offensive lineman?

The only two options, which I noted at the time, is one of the following:

1) Herm is a liar.

2) Herm is a fool.

Neither one sheds a good light on him. The reality is that, at many junctures in his tenure as an NFL HC, both statements have been true.

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A couple of things to clarify here regarding the Chiefs:

Brodie Croyle has first round talent. The guy can make all the throws and has very solid mechanics. What he doesn't have is an ability to stay healthy. His body is simply too brittle to take an NFL pounding. It's not just bad luck, it's genetics too.

I'm 6'2", 200 lbs. Croyle is listed as 6'2" 212. I can guarantee you that he does not weigh as much as even I do. He's the lightest starting QB in the league.

He also has a history of serious injury.

He's blown an ACL three times now. He's had shoulder injuries, he bruised a kidney, cracked a vertebrae, and messed up his hand. He's been hurt and has missed significant, season-length time at every level he's played, from high school to the pros.

I really like the kid, and wanted him to succeed, but he just can't stay on the field.

As far as the line is concerned:

That is 80% Peterson, 20% Herm.

Carl has always given his coaches carte blanche. The one time he actually stepped in and made a pick was in '03 when we drafted Larry Johnson. Vermeil threw a fit b/c he wanted Tyler Brayton.

When Herm came, Roaf retired. Peterson had several years to line up a replacement, but never did, because Dick Vermeil and Lynn Stiles kept chasing defense through the draft, and missing on nearly every pick.

The Chiefs draft record from 1998-2007 is one of the most pathetic collections in NFL history. In that period of time, we drafted and developed one worthwhile offensive lineman--John Tait, and he left town after '03 because he hated Peterson with a passion from his rookie negotiations.

Brian Waters was signed as a UDFA. Casey Wiegmann was a scrap heap backup. Shields was already there. We got Roaf because Joe Horn (A Chiefs draft pick) was banging Roaf's wife and they unloaded him on the cheap (along with his balky knee).

Now, during that time we also had Ryan Lilja in camp, but tried to hide him on PS. He's now starting for the Colts and has been for several years. All of our other OL picks were either botched trades (Welbourn) or late round projects like Will Svitek, who played DT in college.

Moving on to Herm.

He has no eye for talent, and his inability to adapt offensively puts o-linemen who are already incompetent in further situations to fail.

In 2007 I almost lost it, and still bitch to this day, because instead of drafting Ryan Kalil when we had holes at both center and guard, we took Turk McBride, who was the 4th best d-lineman on his college team and doesn't have a true position in a Cover 2.

Tre Stallings was a good ole boy pick as I believe Herm knew him or some of his family members. He washed out.

Herb Taylor is an unknown, but may have some promise.

Barry Richardson has the measureables, but is very, very raw.

So, knowing that Croyle was going to be the QB this year, and knowing that McIntosh can't play RT, but was at least a non-retarded LT, he gets no serviceable RG, uses an UDFA as his center (Rudy Niswanger) who is too tall for the position, and moves McIntosh to a position he can't play. We make no moves for anyone serviceable in free agency, and 20 minutes into the season Adalius Thomas kills Croyle.

18 minutes into the Tennessee game, the Titans finish the job.

Just a complete f'ing catastrophe.

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- McKenzie wanted a $10M SB that would have made him I think the #2 highest-paid OLman in NFL history at that time.

- In their entire careers, neither Thomas nor McKenzie has ever made a pro bowl with the Jets or Giants or Redskins.

I've been watching the Giants for seasons and Kareem McKenzie is probably the best right tackle in the league right now by a distance. He hasn't made the pro-bowl, but seriously, how does that matter?

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I've been watching the Giants for seasons and Kareem McKenzie is probably the best right tackle in the league right now by a distance. He hasn't made the pro-bowl, but seriously, how does that matter?

The original post claimed both McKenzie & Thomas made pro-bowls (plural) after they left here. The fact is, deserved or undeserved, neither has been to one even as an alternate.

Losing McKenzie was due to the following:

- The Jets not locking him up when he was cheaper.

- His agents are impossible to deal with.

- He was asking for a $10M SB from the Jets, meaning they probably could have given him $9M or maybe less. A year later the Giants gave him a $12.5M SB ($18M over the first 3 yrs) as part of a $38M contract in 2005. That year, under the old CBA, the salary cap was set at $85.5M. Only three years later, in 2008, the number is about 40% higher. So what seems like a sound decision in hindsight was VERY risky at the time. The Giants gambled on that and won.

- The Jets could have afforded to extend McKenzie in 2004. Hermway chose a different route: give most of that money - and a 2nd round draft pick - for Justin McCareins.

:bag:

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Bottom Line- any talk of Herm being a good coach by any standard is rediculous.

The guy is terrible and has a history of using his evangelical skills to bury the blame on others.

I am still trying to figure out if Herm were to get fired what coaching position would he be suited for.

The only spot would be secondary coach...but only in a cover-2 scheme...maybe.

Think about that.

O Coordinator - Heck no.

D Coordinator - Heck no.

LB's...no

You get my point.

Yet this guy is a HC.

Silly.

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