Ultimately, The Jets Were Fortunate Herm Was Herm...

[SMC]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, but the best of Herm (keeping a bad team competitive) was undermined by the worst of Herm (ultra conservative play calling in key spots).

The plays in question was the Chiefs 2nd to last drive. The Jets just punted and the Chiefs had the lead and the chance to ice the game.

What did Herm do? Three telegraphed runs. That's vintage Herm.

If Herm wasn't Herm, the Jets would never have gotten the ball back in all likelihood.

[Pragmatic Bus]

herm bieng called out for bieng too conservative.

mangini for bieng too aggressive.

[ECURB]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, but the best of Herm (keeping a bad team competitive) was undermined by the worst of Herm (ultra conservative play calling in key spots).

The plays in question was the Chiefs 2nd to last drive. The Jets just punted and the Chiefs had the lead and the chance to ice the game.

What did Herm do? Three telegraphed runs. That's vintage Herm.

If Herm wasn't Herm, the Jets would never have gotten the ball back in all likelihood.

That was a huge help, if that were a real coach with LJ in the game today... jets get KILLED.

[ECURB]

herm bieng called out for bieng too conservative.

mangini for bieng too aggressive.

Who said Mangini was too aggressive?

[SMC]

herm bieng called out for bieng too conservative.

mangini for bieng too aggressive.

He's not being called out. Herm is simply Herm. Luckily for the Jets.

[SMC]

That was a huge help, if that were a real coach with LJ in the game today... jets get KILLED.

I agree with the first part, but not necessarily with the 2nd (LJ).

LJ had to get suspended by the team. There was no way around it based on what had transpired. I think every HC in the NFL would have suspended him.

[ECURB]

I agree with the first part, but not necessarily with the 2nd (LJ).

LJ had to get suspended by the team. There was no way around it based on what had transpired. I think every HC in the NFL would have suspended him.

I didnt mean they should have played him, just that if he were playing and had a real coach it would have been ugly.

[SMC]

I didnt mean they should have played him, just that if he were playing and had a real coach it would have been ugly.

Oh, got it.

It's about time the Jets got lucky.

Besides, the Leon for Herm trade is one of the best trade in Jets history.

[ECURB]

Oh, got it.

It's about time the Jets got lucky.

Besides, the Leon for Herm trade is one of the best trade in Jets history.

What a great day for Leon to shine... like a big FU to Herm... lol

[Jetheelz]

What a great day for Leon to shine... like a big FU to Herm... lol

Herm couldn't carry the Chiefs on his shoulders today...Leon could.

[CTM]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, but the best of Herm (keeping a bad team competitive) was undermined by the worst of Herm (ultra conservative play calling in key spots).

The plays in question was the Chiefs 2nd to last drive. The Jets just punted and the Chiefs had the lead and the chance to ice the game.

What did Herm do? Three telegraphed runs. That's vintage Herm.

If Herm wasn't Herm, the Jets would never have gotten the ball back in all likelihood.

Agreed..

Maybe next week we can play a complete game..

[SMC]

On Leon, luck (for the Jets) does play a part.

If Jones was in instead of Leon at the end of the 2nd, it would probably been a 30 yard run and no TD.

On the flipside, if Leon had been in instead of Jones on Jones 2 long runs against the Raiders, Leon would have had 2 TDs which would have resulted in a Jets victory.

You can never predict when the Jets Oline is going to open up the Red Sea, you just hope Leon is the RB on those occassions because he's the only one on the team who can take it to the house on that play.

[JETSorDIE]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, but the best of Herm (keeping a bad team competitive) was undermined by the worst of Herm (ultra conservative play calling in key spots).

The plays in question was the Chiefs 2nd to last drive. The Jets just punted and the Chiefs had the lead and the chance to ice the game.

What did Herm do? Three telegraphed runs. That's vintage Herm.

If Herm wasn't Herm, the Jets would never have gotten the ball back in all likelihood.

thats the dam truth ... if herm and is OC had kept to the game plan and passed we would be having a way different convo ... like putting for sale signs on mangini's lawn

[jack48]

What a great day for Leon to shine... like a big FU to Herm... lol

I don't think BS knows how to use Leon. Yesterday was an exception. Leon should be running screens and catching a lot of passes out of the backfield. He would have LBs wetting their pants. Schottenheimer is second rate. We drafted Dustin Keller to stretch the field, but we have an OC who has never known how to use a TE. Brilliant plan.

[Maxman]

What series was it that the Chiefs threw incompletions on the first two plays? Was that their last possession. Either way I was happy that they helped us out by stopping the clock.

I thought Herm coached a good game. His team has a lot less talent and he always walked out with a conference win on the road. The defense seemed to have Favre confused, the offense played well with a backup QB.

But as long as Mangini beat him I am willing to forget all of that. I would rather try to fix what is wrong after a win. I just didn't think Herm had a terrible game\gameplan.

[nyjunc]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, but the best of Herm (keeping a bad team competitive) was undermined by the worst of Herm (ultra conservative play calling in key spots).

The plays in question was the Chiefs 2nd to last drive. The Jets just punted and the Chiefs had the lead and the chance to ice the game.

What did Herm do? Three telegraphed runs. That's vintage Herm.

If Herm wasn't Herm, the Jets would never have gotten the ball back in all likelihood.

Never mind our brialliant coaching staff was completely outcoached in a game we should have won by 20+ it's all on Herm b/c they ran 3 straight times. Instead of worrying about Hrem naybe we should worry about our inept staff?

[Sperm Edwards]

Never mind our brialliant coaching staff was completely outcoached in a game we should have won by 20+ it's all on Herm b/c they ran 3 straight times. Instead of worrying about Hrem naybe we should worry about our inept staff?

I haven't seen many posts here NOT worrying about our coaching staff.

Because Herm is lousy doesn't mean that Mangini isn't, and vice versa.

Neither one is exactly impressive. But I would at least allow that Favre throwing 4 passes right at KC defenders was not part of Mangini/Schottenheimer's gameplan, nor the ones he chucked up to no one the prior weeks.

I didn't like the way Pennington checked down so much it felt like that was his first option at times. But it does no good to have a QB who does the opposite & won't check down at all.

At least we got the win. And while it is 100% true that you get the same # of wins for this ugly crap we saw yesterday as we would have if we won 35-0, it is not encouraging.

[afosomf]

herm was very conservative on last drive, always has been, if thigpen

runs a boot leg on 3rd and 1 they win

even with a punt, it took a great return from leon to win game, we start

at 30 yd line we lose. so hermie was playing %'s and loss

i laugh when i hear Favre directed winning drive..

[Thai Jet]

herm bieng called out for bieng too conservative.

mangini for bieng too aggressive.

And LAST week Mangini was too conservative. Fans LOL

[nyjunc]

I haven't seen many posts here NOT worrying about our coaching staff.

Because Herm is lousy doesn't mean that Mangini isn't, and vice versa.

Neither one is exactly impressive. But I would at least allow that Favre throwing 4 passes right at KC defenders was not part of Mangini/Schottenheimer's gameplan, nor the ones he chucked up to no one the prior weeks.

I didn't like the way Pennington checked down so much it felt like that was his first option at times. But it does no good to have a QB who does the opposite & won't check down at all.

At least we got the win. And while it is 100% true that you get the same # of wins for this ugly crap we saw yesterday as we would have if we won 35-0, it is not encouraging.

I agree about the win, I feel much better than last week but we should have handled these last 3 opponents w/ ease instead we had 2 hard fought wins and a loss. I know we are better than we have showed but will we play to our potential? They better start this week.

[JohnnyHector]

I would at least allow that Favre throwing 4 passes right at KC defenders was not part of Mangini/Schottenheimer's gameplan, nor the ones he chucked up to no one the prior weeks.

I didn't like the way Pennington checked down so much it felt like that was his first option at times. But it does no good to have a QB who does the opposite & won't check down at all.

I think part of the problem is that they haven't made much of an effort to tailor the offense around Favre's strengths. He seems to be much more prone to throwing bad picks the longer he holds onto the ball. They need to be running more quick slants and letting the wideouts rack up the YAC that way instead of all the WR screens they ran yesterday.

[Sperm Edwards]

I agree about the win, I feel much better than last week but we should have handled these last 3 opponents w/ ease instead we had 2 hard fought wins and a loss. I know we are better than we have showed but will we play to our potential? They better start this week.

It's irking.

I don't buy the whole "an impressive win would give us confidence we'll need for the next 4" nonsense. A win against the Bills is plenty. A loss against the Bills, following an "impressive" win against the Chiefs would do this team no good against the Pats & Titans a couple weeks later.

Ridiculous to say the team is going to feel good about themselves against the Titans in week 12 because of an impressive victory against the Chiefs in week 8.

But it is starting to feel like we're holding up a sign facing the opponent with the words "We're passing the ball on this next play." in big neon letters.

[Matt39]

I can live with the first two picks, the last one was obviously brutal. We still managed to put up 28 points yesterday. Favre has the ability to move the ball quickly- with that comes the turnovers. The defense has struggled all season with forcing 3 and outs- which is what I really think is killing us the most.

The defense just still frustrates the hell out of me. We cant stop the pass on 3rd downs.

[Sperm Edwards]

I can live with the first two picks, the last one was obviously brutal. We still managed to put up 28 points yesterday. Favre has the ability to move the ball quickly- with that comes the turnovers. The defense has struggled all season with forcing 3 and outs- which is what I really think is killing us the most.

The defense just still frustrates the hell out of me. We cant stop the pass on 3rd downs.

This is the only saving grace with Favre. The fact that he can drive us down the field in a hurry. The 5-minute long 2-minute drills under Chad were infuriating.

Favre played like garbage and we put up 28 points. When Pennington played like garbage we were likely to put up about 10.

I could do without his multiple, mid-game, 20-30 yard Hail Mary passes.

[DoubleDown]

The defense has struggled all season with forcing 3 and outs- which is what I really think is killing us the most.

The defense just still frustrates the hell out of me. We cant stop the pass on 3rd downs.

I have to disagree with you here. The defense has actually done a great job of shutting down the opposing offense in the past few weeks.

Against Cincinnati, we forced a three and out in 5 out of 10 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 8 out of 10 drives.

Against Oakland, we forced a three and out in 5 out of 13 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 9 out of 13 drives.

Against KC, we forced a three and out in 4 out of 11 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 8 out of 11 drives.

[CTM]

I have to disagree with you here. The defense has actually done a great job of shutting down the opposing offense in the past few weeks.

Against Cincinnati, we forced a three and out in 5 out of 10 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 8 out of 10 drives.

Against Oakland, we forced a three and out in 5 out of 13 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 9 out of 13 drives.

Against KC, we forced a three and out in 4 out of 11 drives and shut them down in 6 plays or less in 8 out of 11 drives.

I think this is skewed by the fact that we were probably playing the 3 worst offenses in the nfl (Bengals without Palmer)

[SMC]

Never mind our brialliant coaching staff was completely outcoached in a game we should have won by 20+ it's all on Herm b/c they ran 3 straight times. Instead of worrying about Hrem naybe we should worry about our inept staff?

Huh?

Where did I ever say that this outcoached coaching staff of the Jets was brilliant? Read what is read rather than what you want to read into things, otherwise, you wouldn't be debating something that was not written.

Plus, if you'd look elsewhere, I have thoroughly criticized the Jets staff. So again, you're off base.

The fact remains that Herm outcoached the Jets and had the game in hand EXCEPT his ultra-conservative nature with the game on the line came into play. A first down there and the Jets may not have gotten the ball back. Instead, he played it extra safe.

My point was that the Jets lucked out by Herm being Herm. That hadn't nothing to do with how good or bad the Jets staff is.

So again, debate what is actually written rather than what you imagine.

[SMC]

I agree about the win, I feel much better than last week but we should have handled these last 3 opponents w/ ease instead we had 2 hard fought wins and a loss. I know we are better than we have showed but will we play to our potential? They better start this week.

What I'm going to say is the classic "woulda-shoulda-coulda", but if Mangini and his staff had devised better game plans and coached better games, the Jets would be 6-1 right now. They did a piss poor job against the Pats and Raiders and it cost them.

Luckily, no one has run away from the division (or the AFC with the 2nd seed still in reach), so Mangini and his team have an opportunity to right the ship.

[JohnnyHector]

One play that stood out was the draw on 3rd and 10 where the Jets were sending the house and Jamaal Charles broke off a 30-yd gain... we all know how much Herm and his staff loves the 3rd-and-long draw play, but the Jets defense was completely unprepared for it.

[SMC]

One play that stood out was the draw on 3rd and 10 where the Jets were sending the house and Jamaal Charles broke off a 30-yd gain... we all know how much Herm and his staff loves the 3rd-and-long draw play, but the Jets defense was completely unprepared for it.

Excellent point. That was at the end of the second half after Leon's TD run. The Jets had the chance to get the ball back with 1:30 and 3 TOs. That was just another example of Herm's staff outcoaching the Jets' staff.

And, for the critics, Jason Whitlock agrees 100% with my point which started this thread (there's another thread on this):

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64502

[Vicious89x]

I think you're right on the money with this SMC. Herm did yesterday which we saw for YEARS when he was our coach. He always delivers the PC line of "well I trusted my players and for the other team to make the mistake, I didn't want to be the team to make the mistake".

Quite frankly I'm disappointed with Mangini these past 3 games. Against all these terrible run defenses I rarely saw a game where I thought we were imposing our will on the other team on the ground. If there was any point in the season to do this, it was these 3 games. Now we head into a game with the Bills feeling a bit insecure about our run game. A team that can run the ball succesfully on anyone and has a solid D ALWAYS has a chance at winning the game against anyone.

Our D has been erratic, I think that's mostly attributed to the fact that once we see we're getting carved up we go into a shell and try to sit back on the passes and wait on them. I don't really understand that sort of playcalling but I'm not our D coordinator.

Here's the thing that bother me most about this team: On both sides of the ball, we're the nerd with tape on our glasses and a pocket protector. The other team, no matter how BAD they truly are, always feels like they can bully us. And we dont' punch them back in the mouth, we take it.

[DoubleDown]

I think this is skewed by the fact that we were probably playing the 3 worst offenses in the nfl (Bengals without Palmer)

True, but my point stands and saying that "the defense has struggled all season with forcing three and outs" is false.

They have done a great job of putting the offense out on the field and limiting the points per game of the opponents. The offense has not returned the favor.

[CTM]

True, but my point stands and saying that "the defense has struggled all season with forcing three and outs" is false.

They have done a great job of putting the offense out on the field and limiting the points per game of the opponents. The offense has not returned the favor.

I hear you. I just have a real hard time giving the defense props after just watching them make Tyler Thigpen look like Peyton Manning..

[DoubleDown]

I hear you. I just have a real hard time giving the defense props after just watching them make Tyler Thigpen look like Peyton Manning..

I hear you as well, but I have to give the guy props. He showed a strong arm, great accuracy, and good decision making for the most part. We sacked him 4 times and blitzed often. He held his composure and made some good plays. It will be interesting to see how he pans out in the future, and whether KC puts some more weapons around him. He showed some good potential yesterday.

[SMC]

I hear you. I just have a real hard time giving the defense props after just watching them make Tyler Thigpen look like Peyton Manning..

I think the problem is a dumb call or two dumb calls that's the issue on these drives in question.

A perfect example is at the end of the 1st half. Chiefs are 3-10 with 1:30 left after Leon's TD. Sutton calls that silly "confused" defense play and the Chiefs run for the 1st down and more. That led to the tying TD.

The Jets have the chance to get the ball back with 3 TOs and are already up 14-7. Play a normal nickle or dime package there and they get stopped.