Kerry Rhodes: How Responsible for Secondary Failures?

[Darth Vader]

Last year I heavily criticized one of the Jets, a fan-favorite and got scalped for it.

Since Mangini took over and implemented the 34 I was analyzing and criticizing Vilma.

My position was to trade him long before he was actually traded, because he was a liability in the defense.

Now, I am going to be critical of Kerry Rhodes. I don't think Kerry should be traded, but I have been watching him very closely this year as I have been watching the secondary.

I respect Rhodes, and think he has a bright future. It is possible that the defense outside of the DL has a lot more flaws than we would like to think, and that this is what is disabling Rhodes from being that premiere player. For example, our Run defense is great, chalk that up to a total defense effort. But the pass defense stinks from the LBs on back through both safety positions. And yesterday, Revis really get wrecked by Bowe.

Not only is Rhodes a part of the secondary, sharing in it's success and failure, but he's the leader of the secondary. He's the longest tenured member of the secondary, and outside of Barton and Ellis (and Bryan Thomas who started in spot duty prior to 2006), he's the longest tenured starter on the entire defense....

So, to the point. Let's let the cat out of the bag. Rhodes hasn't had a statistically good year. OK. Chalk that up to respect.

But the Secondary is Terrible. We can't cover TE's, RBs, 2nd or 3rd WRs, or anything underneath, and we give up a tremendous amount of passing first downs on 3rd down, as well as long drives that focus on the secondary. And Last week, the Chiefs #1 Dwayne Bowe, was a standout. That would be a bad trend to let opponent's #1 WRs to start dominating.

Look at the second Touchdown of the day for the Chiefs Yesterday.

Where the heck was Rhodes? Look at 1:42 to 2:20 in the video the 4th from the left in the game center page. It's called "Tyler Thigpen Highlights" also in the "Videos" section under "Featured". He's got to be more of a help. I don't know what it is.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29638&season=2008&displayPage=tab_gamecenter

I think Rhodes needs to step up in all phases. Or we need to realize that there are external limitations that are harming his ability to be that "Impact Pro-Bowl Player" we all expected this year. He's not a Pro-Bowler. Never was, and won't be this year.

Either he's really not on the level of a Polamalu, or his teammates are bringing him down, or he is not being put in a position to excel. What is it?

What do we make of his play? I want to know what you all think before formulating my response to weeks 7-8 in my Passing Defense Tracker "Weakest Link" here, which was done for weeks 1-6:

http://throwingpaperairplanes.wordpress.com/2008/10/26/namath-theres-an-overall-concept-problem-with-the-team/

[CTM]

I think kudos to you for singling out Kerry who obviously is a big part of the problem. Actually, all the LB's, safeties and CB's not named Revis are part of the problem.

In terms of his own play, I think there are bigger culprits then Rhodes, but you make a valid point that as the leader back there he has to shoulder a bigger part of the blame..

[joewilly]

well he sure had a good start by introducing himself to thigpen

[Irish Jet]

I've been watching Kerry pretty closely too, and I think for the most part he's been outstanding. VERY RARELY does the ball get thrown in his facinity. For the most part is was around Smith/Elam.

[Darth Vader]

I've been watching Kerry pretty closely too, and I think for the most part he's been outstanding. VERY RARELY does the ball get thrown in his facinity. For the most part is was around Smith/Elam.

Outstanding? Really?

[Vicious89x]

Either he's really not on the level of a Polamalu, or his teammates are bringing him down, or he is not being put in a position to excel. What is it?

I'm going to side on the fact that he is being asked to compensate for a rookie CB that gets burned deep and another safety who doesn't know where to go. I think if you've watched Rhodes in the past couple of seasons he always seems to be asked to do something to compensate for our weaknesses. In years past it has been our lack of pressure on the QB, so we saw a lot more of Rhodes up close and blitzing and coming in to stop the run.

Guys like Polamalu and Sanders are able to make a play on the ball because they are free roaming safeties, sniffing out plays. Rhodes seems more like an "assignment" safety this year. JMO, I do think he can play better and agree with some of your points, but I think it's mostly due to 50% suck rate in our Secondary.

[dbatesman]

Outstanding? Really?

"Outstanding" is a strong word, but I've noticed that he's not involved in a lot of plays this season--and not for lack of effort. I mean that when I see Rhodes, he's usually flying in from the opposite site of the field to help on a tackle. I do think teams are gameplanning around him.

That said, I think he's being woefully misused. He seems to be playing a lot of deep center field, which makes no sense to me (other than the fact that Smith and Elam can't be trusted back there alone). Rhodes is big, strong, fast, athletic, and a sure tackler. Why not play him up more to cover TEs and slot receivers? Those are the guys who are burning us, and Rhodes would seem to be perfectly suited to taking them out of the play. So why do I see David Harris lugging his 260 lb ass all over the middle of the field, trying to keep up with Tony Gonzalez?

I agree that Rhodes has had a disappointing season, but I think other teams are gameplanning around him...and yet again, Mangini has failed to make an adjustment.

[Darth Vader]

I'm going to side on the fact that he is being asked to compensate for a rookie CB that gets burned deep and another safety who doesn't know where to go. I think if you've watched Rhodes in the past couple of seasons he always seems to be asked to do something to compensate for our weaknesses. In years past it has been our lack of pressure on the QB, so we saw a lot more of Rhodes up close and blitzing and coming in to stop the run.

Guys like Polamalu and Sanders are able to make a play on the ball because they are free roaming safeties, sniffing out plays. Rhodes seems more like an "assignment" safety this year. JMO, I do think he can play better and agree with some of your points, but I think it's mostly due to 50% suck rate in our Secondary.

So in other words, if we had another good safety to help "mask" assignments, he'd be doing better this year?

I am starting to think that while, yes, he's not quite up to snuff, it's really the CS and the scheme that is NOT putting him in situations where he can really be as impactful as we'd like.

When you watch the Steelers or the Patriots, you see what they do with their impact FS's. We don't do any of that - anymore.

The reason for this thread is to account for Rhodes. It is impossible to assess the failure of the secondary without coming to terms with the abject disappointment of Rhodes (for whatever reason(s)) that is happening.

[SMC]

I think kudos to you for singling out Kerry who obviously is a big part of the problem. Actually, all the LB's, safeties and CB's not named Revis are part of the problem.

In terms of his own play, I think there are bigger culprits then Rhodes, but you make a valid point that as the leader back there he has to shoulder a bigger part of the blame..

I agree to a certain extent, but I believe the scheme is the biggest culprit. The underneath stuff seems open all day. That has led to the opponents' big 3rd down conversions.

Is that Rhodes' fault? Is that the CBs fault? I used to think it was solely the LBs fault on the open on the underneath stuff, but it had to be more to them simply not being there. I can't really remember any missed tackles or the safety failing to help. It may happen, but its not glaring.

It's either the LBs aren't there or the DBs are a step behind. That may go back to scheme or it could go to technique. Either way, that goes back to coaching.

[dbatesman]

I agree to a certain extent, but I believe the scheme is the biggest culprit. The underneath stuff seems open all day. That has led to the opponents' big 3rd down conversions.

Is that Rhodes' fault? Is that the CBs fault? I used to think it was solely the LBs fault on the open on the underneath stuff, but it had to be more to them simply not being there. I can't really remember any missed tackles or the safety failing to help. It may happen, but its not glaring.

It's either the LBs aren't there or the DBs are a step behind. That may go back to scheme or it could go to technique. Either way, that goes back to coaching.

The underneath stuff, to me, is definitely scheme. Our ILBs absolutely cannot cover worth a damn, and since Mangini is (inexplicably) unwilling to bring Rhodes up to help cover TEs, opposing offenses eat it up.

I guess you could blame Barton and Harris for not being able to cover, but I blame Mangini's lack of adjustments. I mean, we all know they can't cover--so why keep putting them out there and giving them an impossible assignment?

[Darth Vader]

I agree to a certain extent, but I believe the scheme is the biggest culprit. The underneath stuff seems open all day. That has led to the opponents' big 3rd down conversions.

Is that Rhodes' fault? Is that the CBs fault? I used to think it was solely the LBs fault on the open on the underneath stuff, but it had to be more to them simply not being there. I can't really remember any missed tackles or the safety failing to help. It may happen, but its not glaring.

It's either the LBs aren't there or the DBs are a step behind. That may go back to scheme or it could go to technique. Either way, that goes back to coaching.

Questions:

How often do you see Rhodes covering a TE one on one?

How often do you see him squatting on underneath routes or crossing patterns in some sort of zone? Or how often have you seen him feign the blitz and then dash back to center field or back to some masked zone?

How often do you see him coming up to make a tackle after-the-fact because the play has occurred in front of him in another zone?

Rhodes isn't responsible for the failures of the underneath stuff becasue he hasn't been assigned to remedy it, although I am fairly sure that he could be assigned to it. His presence there at strategic points in the game would go along way on film to stopping OC's from abject rape of us with the underneath stuff.

[Darth Vader]

So I think in thinking this through together, it's apparent that it isn't all on Rhodes.

There is a lot of lack of utilization of Rhodes in areas where he could be used effectively.

And it wouldn't have to be all the time. Just strategically.

[Vicious89x]

So in other words, if we had another good safety to help "mask" assignments, he'd be doing better this year?

I am starting to think that while, yes, he's not quite up to snuff, it's really the CS and the scheme that is NOT putting him in situations where he can really be as impactful as we'd like.

When you watch the Steelers or the Patriots, you see what they do with their impact FS's. We don't do any of that - anymore.

The reason for this thread is to account for Rhodes. It is impossible to assess the failure of the secondary without coming to terms with the abject disappointment of Rhodes (for whatever reason(s)) that is happening.

I think it's a mix of everything. I think we had another thread about it the other day and quite frankly, I believe Eric Mangini and crew have a unique ability of being able to not properly use talent on their roster.

I completely agree on the point on Polamalu and Sanders, what do you see them doing pre-snap?? Walking around freely, trying to get in position for a safety blitz or stop an under route or lay a big hit on the under route. They are trying to sniff out plays and basically remind people "don't try and catch that ball and think I won't lay you out." It's irritated the CRAP out of me seeing people go under on us time and time again.

I'd say most of that is due to the fact that you have Rhodes being assigned to cover deep and not being able to step up and lay people out. He's had what, one good hit all year on TJ Housh? People love going under routes on us because they get away with it allll day.

Anyways, I do think we have a mix of two things that are playing against #25:

1) A raw rookie who is learning the game and gets burnt and a terrible safety in Eric Smith

2) A head coach and DC that play "not to lose" they don't want to give up the home run. So they sacrifice a playmaker on defense to "keep it safe."

[CTM]

I agree to a certain extent, but I believe the scheme is the biggest culprit. The underneath stuff seems open all day. That has led to the opponents' big 3rd down conversions.

Is that Rhodes' fault? Is that the CBs fault? I used to think it was solely the LBs fault on the open on the underneath stuff, but it had to be more to them simply not being there. I can't really remember any missed tackles or the safety failing to help. It may happen, but its not glaring.

It's either the LBs aren't there or the DBs are a step behind. That may go back to scheme or it could go to technique. Either way, that goes back to coaching.

Well yes, if our problems were restricted to underneath stuff. Certainly that's the most egregious area, but I really believe if it's not Revs's man, it's been working for opposing offenses this season..

I believe Rhodes has 1 PD all season and all to often he seems a step too late. (like in the TD catch at the end of the half Sunday) If Rhodes is an impact safety he's supposed to make impact plays.

[CTM]

"Outstanding" is a strong word, but I've noticed that he's not involved in a lot of plays this season--and not for lack of effort. I mean that when I see Rhodes, he's usually flying in from the opposite site of the field to help on a tackle. I do think teams are gameplanning around him.

That only goes so far though. I don't believe that teams work at avoiding him any more then they would a Polamalu or Reed..

Covering for teh suck around him seems more viable.

[Arsis]

So I think in thinking this through together, it's apparent that it isn't all on Rhodes.

There is a lot of lack of utilization of Rhodes in areas where he could be used effectively.

And it wouldn't have to be all the time. Just strategically.

It seems to me that we have a lot of people that are really great at specific things being asked to do things they're not so good at. Harris is great vs the run yet people are bitching about him getting beat in coverage. It seems that it would be better to keep him around the line of scrimmage to stop the run/pressure the QB/Stop the QB from running so much on us/watch the RB in case of a dumpoff rather than covering guys like tony gonzalez.

[flgreen]

Rhodes had a weak beginning to the 07 season also. he came on very strong the second half of the season.

Hopefully he will again this year. Be nice if it would start next week

[SMC]

Questions:

How often do you see Rhodes covering a TE one on one?

How often do you see him squatting on underneath routes or crossing patterns in some sort of zone? Or how often have you seen him feign the blitz and then dash back to center field or back to some masked zone?

How often do you see him coming up to make a tackle after-the-fact because the play has occurred in front of him in another zone?

Rhodes isn't responsible for the failures of the underneath stuff becasue he hasn't been assigned to remedy it, although I am fairly sure that he could be assigned to it. His presence there at strategic points in the game would go along way on film to stopping OC's from abject rape of us with the underneath stuff.

And that all goes to scheme.

So I agree that Rhodes has some culpability, the scheme is the biggest culprit in my mind. They need to alter the scheme and make timely adjustments.

[dbatesman]

That only goes so far though. I don't believe that teams work at avoiding him any more then they would a Polamalu or Reed..

Covering for teh suck around him seems more viable.

True.

Even more viable: being misused by the CS.

[Darth Vader]

Rhodes had a weak beginning to the 07 season also. he came on very strong the second half of the season.

Hopefully he will again this year. Be nice if it would start next week

You know what it is a really great point that we actually NEED him to start coming up with some big plays in order to take the defense and the team to the next level.

Remeber the FR against the Bills last year?

We need some of his patented Ints, SAcks, PDs, FF, FR, etc.

The defense lacks that takeaway ability this year. That big play ability - outside of a few dramatic pick six's.

[SMC]

The underneath stuff, to me, is definitely scheme. Our ILBs absolutely cannot cover worth a damn, and since Mangini is (inexplicably) unwilling to bring Rhodes up to help cover TEs, opposing offenses eat it up.

I guess you could blame Barton and Harris for not being able to cover, but I blame Mangini's lack of adjustments. I mean, we all know they can't cover--so why keep putting them out there and giving them an impossible assignment?

Very true.

Plus, in ultimate hindsight, maybe getting rid of Vilma was not a good idea. I've thinking for a while that with the defense the way they play now, Vilma and Harris would be a better tandem in dealing with the underneath stuff.

For me, I don't see a glaring problem in the secondary because I don't see them getting torched like conventional bad secondaries do. There's no 30, 40, 50+ yard bombs sodomizing the secondary game in and game out.

Instead, we see the slow torture. The opposing QBs accumulate a lot of yards, but with a lot of completitions. That from the underneath stuff. Correct that and things will be different.

The thing is, we're fans. Mangini is getting paid millions to figure this out and he has failed to do so. That's alarming.

[Darth Vader]

You know, and this is really a nother topic all together, but a fertile one:

Look at LeBeau and Spagnuola from yesterday.

Those guys just know how to scheme.

They know what they are doing. They do things strategically.

It's not hit or miss, haphazard.

I mean, what in the world is Mangini doing with Sutton as a DC already?

I mean seriously.

A lot of it goes back to Mangini, seriously, but there is a void of talent ALL around on the CS. Outside of Callahan and Westhoof, there's not one single qualified individual.

The 34 defense for Sutton and Mangini is like an Indy Car. A fine piece of technology.

And they're like a bunch of cab drivers handling this machinery.

That simply is the explanation.

It's a lot easier said than done.

[CTM]

True.

Even more viable: being misused by the CS.

I don't really agree with that either, I think impactful players find a way to make plays.

I'd agree they aren't putting him in the best position to succeed (who are they though really), but he's still with the same coaching staff that made him look pro-bowl caliber not to long ago.

If we are talking about whether or not he's really an elite status player, I have to think that blaming the coaches excuse wears a little thin over time..

[Darth Vader]

Very true.

Plus, in ultimate hindsight, maybe getting rid of Vilma was not a good idea. I've thinking for a while that with the defense the way they play now, Vilma and Harris would be a better tandem in dealing with the underneath stuff.

For me, I don't see a glaring problem in the secondary because I don't see them getting torched like conventional bad secondaries do. There's no 30, 40, 50+ yard bombs sodomizing the secondary game in and game out.

Instead, we see the slow torture. The opposing QBs accumulate a lot of yards, but with a lot of completitions. That from the underneath stuff. Correct that and things will be different.

The thing is, we're fans. Mangini is getting paid millions to figure this out and he has failed to do so. That's alarming.

Vilma was incredibly over rated in pass defense.

He was terrible. Yeah he gets like one INT that falls right into his hands like every other year, but JV could NOT cover TEs or the Kevin Faulks of the world for crap.

[dbatesman]

I don't really agree with that either, I think impactful players find a way to make plays.

I'd agree they aren't putting him in the best position to succeed (who are they though really), but he's still with the same coaching staff that made him look pro-bowl caliber not to long ago.

If we are talking about whether or not he's really an elite status player, I have to think that blaming the coaches excuse wears a little thin over time..

I agree that he needs to play better, but I feel like it's tough to single out players when the coaches are misusing them so badly. Are we going to rip Harris because he keeps getting burned on passes over the middle?

[Vicious89x]

I don't really agree with that either, I think impactful players find away to make plays.

I'd agree they aren't putting him in the best position to succeed (who are they though really), but he's still with the same coaching staff that made him look pro-bowl caliber not to long ago.

If we are talking about whether or not he's really an elite status player, I have to think that blaming the coaches excuse wears a little thin over time..

I think the way to look at it is like this: What is the CS asking Rhodes to do? To help in coverage and not give up the big pass play? If that is it then is his side of the field or wherever he is not giving up that play, if so then he's performing his job and well. I don't think Mangini's defense encourages things like "creativity and freestyling". IMO his defense is one that he sticks you in a role and you do it, and you do it well or else you're off the field...

Unless you're named Eric Smith.

[Bergen Jet]

Kerry Rhodes has made plays when asked to make plays... I think for the most part that he is the coaching staff's ultimate safety blanket and is playing deep center to help mask the terrible safety playing opposite of him and the rookie CB who has played well at times but has certainly showed enough "rookie."

He really hasn't been allowed to roam free at all and is there for protecting against the homerun.

[SMC]

I don't really agree with that either, I think impactful players find a way to make plays.

I'd agree they aren't putting him in the best position to succeed (who are they though really), but he's still with the same coaching staff that made him look pro-bowl caliber not to long ago.

If we are talking about whether or not he's really an elite status player, I have to think that blaming the coaches excuse wears a little thin over time..

I agree with the notion that if Rhodes is in fact an elite status player, then the coach excuse shouldn't apply. Elite players are inherently elite, regardless of scheme.

BUT, as written elsewhere so eloquently: Mangini and his staff are creative in their misuse of players.

Mangini's claim that he's going to put his players in the post position to succeed was a falacy.

[Jbro22]

Well maybe if they don't send him every time and let him actually be the safety...

Just sayin'

[CTM]

I agree that he needs to play better, but I feel like it's tough to single out players when the coaches are misusing them so badly. Are we going to rip Harris because he keeps getting burned on passes over the middle?

I think you and I already had that argument in week 2

I've been skeptical about Mangini since the get go, but I think we are going a little to far off the deep end now where everything is his fault.

I've been flamed for this plenty, but he's yet to prove he's a good defensive coach as every defense that has come under his watch has regressed.

So yea, I agree with you, but that's been a constant, Rhodes play is the thing that has regressed.

[SMC]

Vilma was incredibly over rated in pass defense.

He was terrible. Yeah he gets like one INT that falls right into his hands like every other year, but JV could NOT cover TEs or the Kevin Faulks of the world for crap.

It was just a thought. I was thinking more of skillset than anything else because he was lighter and quicker than the Jets other LBs.

[CTM]

I agree with the notion that if Rhodes is in fact an elite status player, then the coach excuse shouldn't apply. Elite players are inherently elite, regardless of scheme.

BUT, as written elsewhere so eloquently: Mangini and his staff are creative in their misuse of players.

Mangini's claim that he's going to put his players in the post position to succeed was a falacy.

Ok, well I thought that's what we were discussing based on the bolded in the intial post

[Darth Vader]

It was just a thought. I was thinking more of skillset than anything else because he was lighter and quicker than the Jets other LBs.

it's true. we never got to see him in the 34 with a NT like Jenkins.

perhaps it was reactionary to get rid of him.

[SMC]

it's true. we never got to see him in the 34 with a NT like Jenkins.

perhaps it was reactionary to get rid of him.

And it does seem that Tangini make reactionary decisions rather than proactive decisions.

[dbatesman]

I think you and I already had that argument in week 2

I've been skeptical about Mangini since the get go, but I think we are going a little to far off the deep end now where everything is his fault.

I've been flamed for this plenty, but he's yet to prove he's a good defensive coach as every defense that has come under his watch has regressed.

So yea, I agree with you, but that's been a constant, Rhodes play is the thing that has regressed.

Heh...we sure did.

I understand what you're saying about going off the deep end. Rhodes is our best big-play defender, and yesterday was his first big play all season. But I think Mangini needs to take some heat for the positions he's putting Rhodes in.