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Why did the Jets come out establishing the pass and not the run?


johnny green balls
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excuses, excuses. we had a 5.6 ypc avg-- who cares if baker was a scratch? keep running!!!

Jets had planned to run the ball more vs. Chiefs

Why did the Jets come out establishing the pass and not the run?

The Chiefs entered ranked last against the run (allowing 207.2 yards per game) and were fresh off giving up 332 rushing yards in last week's home loss to the Titans.

"I know the stats," right tackle Damien Woody said with a smile, though he made it clear he wasn't second-guessing the play-calling. "We look at it [statistics] just like you guys do. But like I said, I'm just glad to come out with the win."

Eric Mangini hinted the plan was to run the ball more - and in fairness, the Jets did have 135 yards on 24 carries for a 5.6-yard average - but he said a hip injury "flared up" for tight end Chris Baker just before the game. Offensive lineman Robert Turner replaced Baker, hence all the declarations throughout by referee Peter Morelli that "No. 75 is an eligible receiver."

"You have the guy active, you have the guy dressed and you are anticipating being able to run a lot of those packages," Mangini said. "Then the person you have to sub in for him is an offensive lineman. I thought Robert Turner did a great job filling in as much as he did for as long as he did, [but] you're not really fooling anyone when that guy goes in."

How badly did Brett Favre get hurt?

Favre appeared to bang his throwing arm on guard Alan Faneca's shoulder on his follow-through on a first-quarter interception by Brandon Flowers, who later would victimize Favre again. Mangini didn't express much concern, nor did Favre, though he admitted to feeling sore. Then again, he always does.

"It didn't feel great, but the win felt good," Favre said.

Later he said, "For 39, I don't feel too bad."

What about any other injuries?

Linebacker David Harris left the game early in the second quarter after making a tackle on an 8-yard run by Jamaal Charles. Harris, who missed a portion of training camp with a hamstring injury, did not return. Yesterday's injury was announced in the third quarter as a "hip."

Safety Kerry Rhodes was shaken up making a tackle early in the third quarter. He missed one play and returned.

"I caught a little shot to the neck," Rhodes said. "It's a little tight but I'm good."

Can this team possibly go to Buffalo and win?

Calvin Pace usually says something interesting after the game, and he didn't disappoint yesterday.

"Sometimes it feels like we go out there and we play to [the level] of the people we're playing against," he said.

Maybe that bodes well for the Jets. After three straight weeks of being the favorite against some of the league's worst teams, they will be far from a favorite next week against the Bills, one of the conference's best teams.

SECOND GUESS

Leon Washington rushed three times for 67 yards, including a 60-yard touchdown run that gave the Jets a 14-7 lead. It's developed into a clich

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Personally, I'm not a fan of running to set up the pass even in the face of futility in our ground game. It's a 1970's gameplan unless you just dominate in that area.

I agree this should have been a game to run a lot more, but not for the purpose of setting up the pass. There were open receivers; Favre just threw it elsewhere a lot.

It wasn't the greatest gameplan in the world against such a garbage run defense. But it looks a lot worse than it did because Favre had such a crappy game.

The playcalling issue that a lot of people are bringing up, and one that I agree with myself, is more along the lines of a lack of disguising what we did rather than what we did in terms of passing or running.

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So everyone's killing the Jets because we didn't run the ball down the throats of a team that was gashed the week prior by the Titans (a team that is vastly superior to ours in running the ball, but I digress). Isn't it possible that maybe KC isn't as abysmal against the run as they were last week, and I don't know, maybe were fixated on stopping the run after last weeks embarrassing performance?

If you take a more detailed look at our running game yesterday, outside of Leon's 60 yard scamper, there was no consistency to be found there. No "gashing". Leon, Jones and Chatman ran the ball 21 times for 69 yards, or barely over three yards a clip. If you take away Jones 17 yard run, that's 20 carries for 52 yards, or 2.6 yards per clip.

I know the gut reaction to "taking away runs" is to sneer, and rightfully so, cause on the surface it makes no sense to "take away" something that did happen. BUT, I'd argue that the #1 goal of a running game is moving the chains, setting up favorable down and distances, grinding out yards and game clock. In other words, consistent production with the big plays being gravy.

Our running game yesterday was anything but that. As stated, for 20 of our 22 carries we accumulated 52 yards. That means the vast majority of the times we handed the ball of to a RB, they were getting stopped sort of a three yard gain. When you do that on first down, you leaves yourself in a 2nd and 8 situation, most commonly known as a passing situation.

Isn't is likely that if we did run the ball a little more consistently yesterday, we may have run it more?

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So everyone's killing the Jets because we didn't run the ball down the throats of a team that was gashed the week prior by the Titans (a team that is vastly superior to ours in running the ball, but I digress). Isn't it possible that maybe KC isn't as abysmal against the run as they were last week, and I don't know, maybe were fixated on stopping the run after last weeks embarrassing performance?

TJ went nuts last week and the limited chances with gave TJ/LW they hit big against the Chiefs. what ever happened to "keep doing what's working until they stop it??"

also, your explanation doesn't account for the fact that STUBBORN MANGINI didn't change gameplans after farves first 2 ludicrous INTs even though we were averaging nearly 6 ypc.

Edited by johnny green balls
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TJ went nuts last week and the limited chances with gave TJ/LW they hit big against the Chiefs. what ever happened to "keep doing what's working until they stop it??"

also, your explanation doesn't account for the fact that STUBBORN MANGINI didn't change gameplans after farves first 2 ludicrous INTs we should've rammed it down their throat the rest of the game even though we were averaging nearly 6 ypc.

I agree, past two games Jets should've pounded both teams with the run. Yesterday in the redzone (Favre pick) was a perfect example, no reason Jets should be throwing the ball when the other team can't stop the run.

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So everyone's killing the Jets because we didn't run the ball down the throats of a team that was gashed the week prior by the Titans (a team that is vastly superior to ours in running the ball, but I digress). Isn't it possible that maybe KC isn't as abysmal against the run as they were last week, and I don't know, maybe were fixated on stopping the run after last weeks embarrassing performance?

No.

There are 32 teams in the NFL. The Chiefs are ranked 32 in rushing yards surrendered, rushing touchdowns surrendered, and rushing yards per carry surrendered. Headed into week 8, you don't get those rankings because one team beat up on you good.

The only team to end up with fewer than 100 rushing yards was Denver, and the only reason for that was due to them only handing the ball off to RB's 19 times (for 99 yards). That game represents their shut-down run-defense performance of 2008.

Handing off to RB's vs Kansas City in 2008:

New England 24-113 (5.21 ypc)

Oakland 46-297 (6.46 ypc)

Atlanta 34-179 (5.26 ypc)

Denver 19-99 (5.21 ypc)

Carolina 46-205 (4.46 ypc)

Tennessee 38-334 (8.79 ypc)

Jets 21-129 (6.14 ypc)

What's worse is that 4 of their prior 6 opponents were running out the clock on them. The Chiefs KNEW a run was coming and still couldn't stop it.

They are as awful as awful can be in stopping the run. Even with the Jets getting "only" 130 yards on the ground yesterday, they are currently on pace to give up over 3100 rushing yards this year which would be an NFL record, eclipsing the prior record by almost 400 yards.

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So everyone's killing the Jets because we didn't run the ball down the throats of a team that was gashed the week prior by the Titans (a team that is vastly superior to ours in running the ball, but I digress). Isn't it possible that maybe KC isn't as abysmal against the run as they were last week, and I don't know, maybe were fixated on stopping the run after last weeks embarrassing performance?

If you take a more detailed look at our running game yesterday, outside of Leon's 60 yard scamper, there was no consistency to be found there. No "gashing". Leon, Jones and Chatman ran the ball 21 times for 69 yards, or barely over three yards a clip. If you take away Jones 17 yard run, that's 20 carries for 52 yards, or 2.6 yards per clip.

I know the gut reaction to "taking away runs" is to sneer, and rightfully so, cause on the surface it makes no sense to "take away" something that did happen. BUT, I'd argue that the #1 goal of a running game is moving the chains, setting up favorable down and distances, grinding out yards and game clock. In other words, consistent production with the big plays being gravy.

Our running game yesterday was anything but that. As stated, for 20 of our 22 carries we accumulated 52 yards. That means the vast majority of the times we handed the ball of to a RB, they were getting stopped sort of a three yard gain. When you do that on first down, you leaves yourself in a 2nd and 8 situation, most commonly known as a passing situation.

Isn't is likely that if we did run the ball a little more consistently yesterday, we may have run it more?

Good post. On top of that, we scored 29 points (had a missed field). That should be enough.

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So those INTs were in the gameplan genius?

wow that's the dumbest comment ever.

everyone (except you, apparently) knows that after your QB is obviously having problems throwing the ball and your two RB's are running wild, the sensible, smart, NON-ARROGANT coach says, "Gee, Brett's having a bad day, time to run the ball more."

Of course, we should've been running more from the opening snap but surely Arrogini should have said, "Huh, maybe I should be running against the 32nd pass D in the league instead of asking Favre to throw 40 yard passes down the middle of the field."

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No.

There are 32 teams in the NFL. The Chiefs are ranked 32 in rushing yards surrendered, rushing touchdowns surrendered, and rushing yards per carry surrendered. Headed into week 8, you don't get those rankings because one team beat up on you good.

The only team to end up with fewer than 100 rushing yards was Denver, and the only reason for that was due to them only handing the ball off to RB's 19 times (for 99 yards). That game represents their shut-down run-defense performance of 2008.

Handing off to RB's vs Kansas City in 2008:

New England 24-113 (5.21 ypc)

Oakland 46-297 (6.46 ypc)

Atlanta 34-179 (5.26 ypc)

Denver 19-99 (5.21 ypc)

Carolina 46-205 (4.46 ypc)

Tennessee 38-334 (8.79 ypc)

Jets 21-129 (6.14 ypc)

What's worse is that 4 of their prior 6 opponents were running out the clock on them. The Chiefs KNEW a run was coming and still couldn't stop it.

They are as awful as awful can be in stopping the run. Even with the Jets getting "only" 130 yards on the ground yesterday, they are currently on pace to give up over 3100 rushing yards this year which would be an NFL record, eclipsing the prior record by almost 400 yards.

One of your numbers are a bit off up there..

Maybe I misworded my post. Of course the Cheifs are a bad run defense, I didn't mean to indicate other wise, my point is that they are coming off a pathetic performance and teams tend to be very reactionary to things like this in terms of over correcting for it.

The bottom line to me is that it makes no sense to continue pounding the ball when 10 out of 11 times you're getting stopped for less then 3 yards. That isn't consistent run producton, it doesn't move the chains and it forces you into passing down

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TJ went nuts last week and the limited chances with gave TJ/LW they hit big against the Chiefs. what ever happened to "keep doing what's working until they stop it??"

also, your explanation doesn't account for the fact that STUBBORN MANGINI didn't change gameplans after farves first 2 ludicrous INTs even though we were averaging nearly 6 ypc.

Well, cause it wasn't working frankly. Yes, Leon popped the big play and makes the overall stats look nice but it doesn't change the fact that play in and play out we were not productive when running the ball.

It's much different offensively to consistently break off 5-6 yards runs then it is to consistently break off 2-3 yard runs and then hit for 60. The former is certainly preferable.

The funny thing is that we had a productive day offensively that was unfortunately ruined by Favre's brain farts (specifically the two chuck it up there and hope for the best plays)

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I like the idea of coming out passing when everyone expected the run. It caught KC off guard and is a large part of the reason we marched right down the field in our first possesion.

But... and that's a BIG BUT... at some point we needed to get back to the running game.

TJ is the type of runner who needs to get into a rhythm and he gets better and better as he gets more carries. Too often this season, the Jets have abandoned the run and not given Jones the chance to get into his rhythm.

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"Sometimes it feels like we go out there and we play to [the level] of the people we're playing against," he said.

sometimes ?

that is poor coaching, plain and simple

mangini is like a nerdy risk analyst most of the time, way to cerebral and he is just plain awful as a leader of men and a motivator

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Can people please stop pretending Thomas Jones gives us a good running attack?

When paired with Leon Washington he does.

Last I checked Jones was bashed last year due to his number of touchdowns (A stupid thing to use as an advantage in an argument on a 4-12 team. You're 4-12. I think a lot of people didn't score ****ing TD's).

This year with a decent/good run blocking OLine? Oh, I don't know (and keep in mind the Jets have Washington to catch out of the backfield, thus Jones' numbers being somewhat down):

122 carries

532 yards

5 TD's (4 rushing, 1 receiving)

4.4 yards per carry

14 receptions, 66 yards

Check out the stats of Marshawn Lynch in Buffalo.

123 carries

450 yards

6 TD's

3.7 yards per carry

24 receptions, 147 yards

How about Ronnie Brown?

98 carries

401 yards

7 TD's

4.1 yards per carry

12 receptions, 113 yards

How about LaDainian Tomlinson?

142 carries

551 yards

5 TD's

3.9 yards per carry

29 receptions, 215 yards

Edited by 124
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I'm waiting. :Typotux:

Thomas Jones is a journeyman JAG. He never lasts more than a couple years on each team - why? Because he's a JAG. What else needs to be said, its a simple fact.

BTW, that 4.4 avg is skewed because of his 6.6 game vs the Raiders. Every other game averaged in and his YPC is 3.78. Again, he's a JAG.

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Ah so now we're going to pick out particular games? We can knock down the numbers for all those other backs and other backs around the league as well.

Thomas Jones was only dealt out of Chicago because they thought they had something in Cedric Benson and they were wrong. They lucked out with Matt Forte, but they were missing Jones badly last season.

He's a good back, period.

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Ah so now we're going to pick out particular games? We can knock down the numbers for all those other backs and other backs around the league as well.

Thomas Jones was only dealt out of Chicago because they thought they had something in Cedric Benson and they were wrong. They lucked out with Matt Forte, but they were missing Jones badly last season.

He's a good back, period.

4.0 career YPC mark = Average

That's just a fact.

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4.0 career YPC mark = Average

That's just a fact.

Incorrect. Sorry, you're not going to win this one. Jones is a good back. Reason why he has been a Top 10 back rushing yardage in this league this year, again.

Let me pull a you for a second. Take out the numbers when he was playing for the god awful Arizona Cardinals and take a look at his years with the Bucs, Bears and Jets.

4.6, 4.3, 4.0, 4.1, 3.7, 4.4.

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Incorrect. Sorry, you're not going to win this one. Jones is a good back. Reason why he has been a Top 10 back rushing yardage in this league this year, again.

Let me pull a you for a second. Take out the numbers when he was playing for the god awful Arizona Cardinals and take a look at his years with the Bucs, Bears and Jets.

4.6, 4.3, 4.0, 4.1, 3.7, 4.4.

So you have a problem with me taking out 1 game yet you're going to wipe away 3 entire seasons to help your arguement? :lol:

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So you have a problem with me taking out 1 game yet you're going to wipe away 3 entire seasons to help your arguement? :lol:

If you're going to take out something that hurts him like particular games (as I'm sure if this continued you would), you might as well take out stats that hurt him.

All you can look at is what he's been doing recently and what he's done is run very well in Chicago, had a down year last year on a horrible team with a bad Offensive Line and is back up performing very well in 2008. He needs to get the ball more than 14 times a game, thats for sure. Thomas Jones with 20+ carries is one of the best, too bad the Jets miss use him.

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If you're going to take out something that hurts him like particular games (as I'm sure if this continued you would), you might as well take out stats that hurt him.

All you can look at is what he's been doing recently and what he's done is run very well in Chicago, had a down year last year on a horrible team with a bad Offensive Line and is back up performing very well in 2008. He needs to get the ball more than 14 times a game, thats for sure. Thomas Jones with 20+ carries is one of the best, too bad the Jets miss use him.

I took out 1 game, thats it. Not 3 entire seasons.

BTW, even in that Raiders game you saw why Jones is JAG. How many times did he go untouched into the secondary, 1 on 1 matchup for a touchdown, and completely fail? He's an average back, sorry dude.

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In hindsight, you can argue from here to eternity on whether a team should have run more or passed more. I don't really care if they run or pass. I just want to be surprised by what they do once in a while. If an idiot like me can tell from their formation and circumstances if they are going to run or pass 95% of the time, don't you think any DC can in preparing his defense by watching tapes of the Jets? And when professional football players KNOW that before the play, the talent factor becomes much less significant.

Edited by DMaynard
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I took out 1 game, thats it. Not 3 entire seasons.

BTW, even in that Raiders game you saw why Jones is JAG. How many times did he go untouched into the secondary, 1 on 1 matchup for a touchdown, and completely fail? He's an average back, sorry dude.

Agreed. If Leon's got the ball there there we win that game easy as he probably has 2 long TD's

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Incorrect. Sorry, you're not going to win this one. Jones is a good back. Reason why he has been a Top 10 back rushing yardage in this league this year, again.

Let me pull a you for a second. Take out the numbers when he was playing for the god awful Arizona Cardinals and take a look at his years with the Bucs, Bears and Jets.

4.6, 4.3, 4.0, 4.1, 3.7, 4.4.

Talk about cherry-picking. Look at Jones' numbers for us last year when his "average carry" was 3.7 yards:

8 games out of 16 that year he got 3.1 ypc or less. Not 3.69 or less. 3.1 or less. One 24-130 game against Philly did nothing for us in the other 15 games. Half the games he was way, way below the league average. Three more he was still below that. 5 games out of 16 he eclipsed this "average" of 3.7.

It's like Martin in 2005. His 3.3 ypc "average" was nothing close to his true average carry. Two 40 yard runs in the same Buffalo game did jack squat for us in his other performances. The rest, we saw: 2.9, 2.3, 3.7, 2.3, 2.6, 2.0, 3.4, 3.9, 1.8, 3.8, 1.9. Are those the numbers of someone whose "average carry" went 3.3 yards? Of course not. Those two unobstructed runs (in the same game) boosted his "average" run by a third of a yard on the season, even in a season with well over 200 carries.

Jones isn't all you make him out to be. He is mediocre. Mediocre players have some good games and some bad games. When the line blocks well, he looks good. When the line doesn't block well, he looks like garbage. When the line blocks mediocre, he looks mediocre. I don't know how that equals him being good when he's only as good as his line.

There are few backs who are that good that they perform at a high level even behind a mediocre (or worse) line. Thomas Jones is not one of those players.

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I was more pissed at the fact that Leon didn't get more than 3 carries than I was about anything else. I'm laughing at the fact that some people who are criticising us for 'throwing too much' are made up largely of the same people who were pleading for us to 'open it up' through the first two weeks.

This Jets offense has no idendity right now. No one's sure whether the passing game is the strength of the offense, or whether the running game is. We seem to be running more when we should be passing and passing more when we should be running, it gets frustrating to watch. Personally I think we're average at both, Thomas Jones is and always has been an average back at best while Brett Favre has been inconsistent this season, to the point where he may be the worst QB in the league over the last 3 weeks.

One thing I do know - Good things tend to happen with the ball in Leon Washington's hands. Hopefully the 'Mangenius' lets these good things happen more frequently than they do right now. GIVE HIM THE ****ING BALL!

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Talk about cherry-picking. Look at Jones' numbers for us last year when his "average carry" was 3.7 yards:

8 games out of 16 that year he got 3.1 ypc or less. Not 3.69 or less. 3.1 or less. One 24-130 game against Philly did nothing for us in the other 15 games. Half the games he was way, way below the league average. Three more he was still below that. 5 games out of 16 he eclipsed this "average" of 3.7.

It's like Martin in 2005. His 3.3 ypc "average" was nothing close to his true average carry. Two 40 yard runs in the same Buffalo game did jack squat for us in his other performances. The rest, we saw: 2.9, 2.3, 3.7, 2.3, 2.6, 2.0, 3.4, 3.9, 1.8, 3.8, 1.9. Are those the numbers of someone whose "average carry" went 3.3 yards? Of course not. Those two unobstructed runs (in the same game) boosted his "average" run by a third of a yard on the season, even in a season with well over 200 carries.

Jones isn't all you make him out to be. He is mediocre. Mediocre players have some good games and some bad games. When the line blocks well, he looks good. When the line doesn't block well, he looks like garbage. When the line blocks mediocre, he looks mediocre. I don't know how that equals him being good when he's only as good as his line.

There are few backs who are that good that they perform at a high level even behind a mediocre (or worse) line. Thomas Jones is not one of those players.

But he's got such big arms....

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Calvin Pace usually says something interesting after the game, and he didn't disappoint yesterday.

"Sometimes it feels like we go out there and we play to [the level] of the people we're playing against," he said.

Calvin Pace deserves the POTW. You gotta like a guy who will actually say what everyone is thinking.

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Calvin Pace usually says something interesting after the game, and he didn't disappoint yesterday.

"Sometimes it feels like we go out there and we play to [the level] of the people we're playing against," he said.

Calvin Pace deserves the POTW. You gotta like a guy who will actually say what everyone is thinking.

Thank GOD we have an easy schedule this year. I would not want the Jets showing off with too many blowouts.

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