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In the beginning....Some NFL coaches first three years


glenn212

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Just thinking about what were some of the NFL succesful coaches,Noll,Jimmy Johnson,Tom Landry's..etc.. record there first three years..Well lets see??

Weeb Ewbanks 13-22

Jeff Fisher 16-22

John Fox 25-23

Jimmy Johnson 19-29

Chuck Noll 12-29

Dan Reeves 21-20

Tom Landry 9-28

Hank Stram (KC) 19-19-2

Dick Vermeil 18-26

Bill Walsh 21-27

Bill Parcells 22-25

Bill Belichick 20-28

Tom Coughlin 24-24

Mike Ditka 21-20

Eric Mangini 23-23

Very interesting list i'd say...We got the right guy..just sayin

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Just thinking about what were some of the NFL succesful coaches,Noll,Jimmy Johnson,Tom Landry's..etc.. record there first three years..Well lets see??

Weeb Ewbanks 13-22

Jeff Fisher 16-22

John Fox 25-23

Jimmy Johnson 19-29

Chuck Noll 12-29

Dan Reeves 21-20

Tom Landry 9-28

Hank Stram (KC) 19-19-2

Dick Vermeil 18-26

Bill Walsh 21-27

Bill Parcells 22-25

Bill Belichick 20-28

Tom Coughlin 24-24

Mike Ditka 21-20

Eric Mangini 23-23

Very interesting list i'd say...We got the right guy..just sayin

These #'s don't mean anything

Rich Kotite was 29-19 in his first 3 years w/ Philly

Was he the right guy for the Jets?

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Ridiculous argument to base what Mangini has done (or failed to do) on what other coaches in disimilar circumstances did.

Essentially, it's apples and oranges.

12 of the 15 coaches you listed coached in the pre-free agency era. Teams had better opportunity to develop players and keep players. Teams didn't go worst-to-first as they do in the free agency era.

Plus, you note 12 coaches with similar records who succeeded, but there are more with similar records who have failed.

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I like Eric, I do. I think he really does have potential to be a great coach in this league, but on the other hand the stuff we saw from him in 2006 compared to last season and stretches during this season make me wonder. I'm not willing to give up on Eric no matter the outcome of this season and the only reason I say that is because you don't want to look down the road and see us firing him after this season and bringing in someone who will have similar results.

We have been shaking our heads at this staff the last three weeks and I dont think I can answer why the staff has been so inconsistent as of late, you can understand a player or players going through a slump or whatever, but when your a coach in the NFL and the stuff your preaching brings success its hard to see why you go away from it, it wont always work and look perfect, but when you deliberately move away from it the only thing we can do is shake our heads and ask why???

I think Eric will continue to grow and I hope he can do that while winning some games, (playoff games) divisions and ect while he does. I hope he is the guy to stay here for a decade and bring a consistent contender to the field, but if he's not then moving on would be the best fit... Just would like to see him back one more season no matter the outcome, for now.

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Its called comparable analysis Genius..Your agenda is clear and without facts. your a Mangini hater..and I'll state again you would have wanted the heads of all the HOF coaches on this list..you know it..Just the facts ma'am

Definition

Item by item comparison of two or more comparable (see comparability analysis) alternatives, processes.

you are a tool

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Not a compelling argument for reasons already pointed out ... but, I am not willing to give up on Mangini yet. I still think he has the potential to be a very good HC. But I want to see Sutton go and get a halfway decent DC in here before I make a final judgement on Mangini. Schotty drives me crazy at times, but other times he shows potential as well. He is young like Mangini and I can live with keeping him. But Sutton is old and incompetent and has to go.

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Not a compelling argument for reasons already pointed out ... but, I am not willing to give up on Mangini yet. I still think he has the potential to be a very good HC. But I want to see Sutton go and get a halfway decent DC in here before I make a final judgement on Mangini. Schotty drives me crazy at times, but other times he shows potential as well. He is young like Mangini and I can live with keeping him. But Sutton is old and incompetent and has to go.

I 2nd that...Sutton has to go!

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Not a compelling argument for reasons already pointed out ... but, I am not willing to give up on Mangini yet. I still think he has the potential to be a very good HC. But I want to see Sutton go and get a halfway decent DC in here before I make a final judgement on Mangini. Schotty drives me crazy at times, but other times he shows potential as well. He is young like Mangini and I can live with keeping him. But Sutton is old and incompetent and has to go.

Good post. IMO I also think Sutton is the one who needs to go. There is not enough consistancy with this defense, we were almost leading the league in sacks at one point and now we let the QB sit in a f****** lazy boy back there and throw passes.

Now, OTOH, I would still love to see Cowher on the Jets sideline.

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Ridiculous argument to base what Mangini has done (or failed to do) on what other coaches in disimilar circumstances did.

Essentially, it's apples and oranges.

12 of the 15 coaches you listed coached in the pre-free agency era. Teams had better opportunity to develop players and keep players. Teams didn't go worst-to-first as they do in the free agency era.

Plus, you note 12 coaches with similar records who succeeded, but there are more with similar records who have failed.

No, sorry.

You can't have things boths ways. Bill Belichick's accomplishments can't be more impressive because its the salary cap era while Mangini's are less because it's the free agency era.

The bottom line is we are currently in a win-now culture. The current trend in this sport is to dump anybody who doesn't bring you a championship within three years. G-d forbid we allow anyone to develop their skills.

Do we develop quarterbacks anymore? **** no. Those mother****ers better be ready to play from day one or we'll throw 'em on the scrap heap.

This attitude is killing the sport and sapping the enjoyment out of it.

Dumping a coach who has had two winning seasons in his first three years is the very definition of stupidity. Could we have been better? Maybe. But changing coaches for the sake of change is just plain dumb.

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No, sorry.

You can't have things boths ways. Bill Belichick's accomplishments can't be more impressive because its the salary cap era while Mangini's are less because it's the free agency era.

The bottom line is we are currently in a win-now culture. The current trend in this sport is to dump anybody who doesn't bring you a championship within three years. G-d forbid we allow anyone to develop their skills.

Do we develop quarterbacks anymore? **** no. Those mother****ers better be ready to play from day one or we'll throw 'em on the scrap heap.

This attitude is killing the sport and sapping the enjoyment out of it.

Dumping a coach who has had two winning seasons in his first three years is the very definition of stupidity. Could we have been better? Maybe. But changing coaches for the sake of change is just plain dumb.

excellent post. A voice of reason and realism.

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Klecko, I agree. I think in today's NFL, people are looking to jump ship immediately if things aren't golden immediately. Despite his playoff appearances, I remember a lot of calls for Bill Cowher's head in Pittsburgh years ago but the Rooneys stuck with him. In the end, their patience with their inexperienced and young head coach paid off.

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He is a masterful coach in terms of teaching and player development. No, he's not perfect in many ways! He needs to be more assertive when the team needs inspiration and motivation. But what he seems to be doing is counting on his players to lead each other and get themselves fired up. He clearly doesn't believe it's the coach's job to go crazy and scream a lot. And while the Jets' culture has improved, what this coach must do is choose his coaching personel better. He needs a fiery defensive coordinator - or at least one who makes aggressive calls.

However, we would be very very sorry to let Mangini go with the steady, consistent and positive approach he brings. He is one of the few coaches I truly really admire as a person. He is a good man who leads by his actions. Additionally, what he has developed through his drafting / coaching of Leon Washington, Mangold, D'brick, Harris, Revis, Brad Smith, Wallace Write, Clowney, Justin Keller and others...has been truly impressive.

Please don't compare Mangini to Cowher. While cowher was a very tough/ aggressive coach, they seemed to always lose those big games in the AFC championship to the Pats or someone else. They were constantly and consistently outcoached. I'm thankful for Eric and quite certain we will keep him for years.

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Here's my opinion on Mangini- He doesn't play to his teams strengths. He's created a "system" that he expect his players to fit into and play inside of. He lives and dies by his system and won't make tweaks and changes because he thinks if executed properly his team is almost ascertained victory.

Throw in that and with the fact that his personality isn't one NYers love, bland, boring and devoid of emotion, it's easy to hate on the guy. Seeing him sit there with that blank stare and seeing him almost never get into a players face just gets on my nerves. I guess IMO you're paid to be a LEADER of men. It's not your job to be friends with everyone, it's not your job to get along with your players. Your job is to get the most out of them on the field. And I feel he is falling short there. He's getting just enough to get by.

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Its called comparable analysis Genius..Your agenda is clear and without facts. your a Mangini hater..and I'll state again you would have wanted the heads of all the HOF coaches on this list..you know it..Just the facts ma'am

Definition

Item by item comparison of two or more comparable (see comparability analysis) alternatives, processes.

Hmm, so then if I took all the coaches that stunk, like Jauron, Kotite, herm and Walton and showed you how they compare favorable to Mangini would that be equally valid?

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This thread is beyond retarted

Irony?

No, sorry.

You can't have things boths ways. Bill Belichick's accomplishments can't be more impressive because its the salary cap era while Mangini's are less because it's the free agency era.

The bottom line is we are currently in a win-now culture. The current trend in this sport is to dump anybody who doesn't bring you a championship within three years. G-d forbid we allow anyone to develop their skills.

Do we develop quarterbacks anymore? **** no. Those mother****ers better be ready to play from day one or we'll throw 'em on the scrap heap.

This attitude is killing the sport and sapping the enjoyment out of it.

Dumping a coach who has had two winning seasons in his first three years is the very definition of stupidity. Could we have been better? Maybe. But changing coaches for the sake of change is just plain dumb.

Agreed. Excellent post. I don't like the fact that this board is so overboard that I am put in the position of defending Mangini. I don't like everything he's done, but considering what he started with they are doing pretty well.

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No, sorry.

You can't have things boths ways. Bill Belichick's accomplishments can't be more impressive because its the salary cap era while Mangini's are less because it's the free agency era.

The bottom line is we are currently in a win-now culture. The current trend in this sport is to dump anybody who doesn't bring you a championship within three years. G-d forbid we allow anyone to develop their skills.

Do we develop quarterbacks anymore? **** no. Those mother****ers better be ready to play from day one or we'll throw 'em on the scrap heap.

This attitude is killing the sport and sapping the enjoyment out of it.

Dumping a coach who has had two winning seasons in his first three years is the very definition of stupidity. Could we have been better? Maybe. But changing coaches for the sake of change is just plain dumb.

How about dumping a coach who followed up a 4 win season with a monumental collapse the next?

If we don't make the playoffs Mangini should go, I don't really see how it's debatable given our injury situation, the amount of talent on this team, our easy schedule and where we were 3 weeks ago.

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No, sorry.

You can't have things boths ways. Bill Belichick's accomplishments can't be more impressive because its the salary cap era while Mangini's are less because it's the free agency era.

The bottom line is we are currently in a win-now culture. The current trend in this sport is to dump anybody who doesn't bring you a championship within three years. G-d forbid we allow anyone to develop their skills.

Do we develop quarterbacks anymore? **** no. Those mother****ers better be ready to play from day one or we'll throw 'em on the scrap heap.

This attitude is killing the sport and sapping the enjoyment out of it.

Dumping a coach who has had two winning seasons in his first three years is the very definition of stupidity. Could we have been better? Maybe. But changing coaches for the sake of change is just plain dumb.

Last things first, who's talking about dumping Mangini? I'm certainly not. So don't argue something with me that I'm not arguing.

As to the attitude of "win now", I agree its detrimental, but its the way the NFL is run now. That can't be changed. The idea now is "I've given you players, now win with them and if you can't, I'll find someone else who can."

As to the supposed double standard for Mangini and Belichick, I don't see it. The free agency ear has transformed a coaches job and his status. My point was that for the pre-free agency coaches, teams allowed the coach at least 5 years to turn a team around while now it's no more than 2. What Tannenbaum did this offseason couldn't be done before. Head Coaches benefit from that, but they also have more pressure because of it.

Mangini has been a mediocre HC his first 3 years. Just because some good coaches started off mediocre doesn't mean that Mangini will turn out to be a good HC.

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How about dumping a coach who followed up a 4 win season with a monumental collapse?

If we don't make the playoffs Mangini should go, I don't really see how it's debatable given our injury situation, the amount of talent on this team, our easy schedule and where we were 3 weeks ago.

The one thing I would say is dump Sutton, and see where the defense goes next year. A large part of our collapse has been due to poor defense. Yea our offense hasn't been fantastic but save the niners game our O hasn't been "horrible" it's been average. Teams can win with 17 pts scored if the defense does their job. It just feels like if we haven't put up 30 spots our team doesn't win.

I guess when it comes to the CS it all depends on what type of fan you are. Do you value D? Do you value O? For me it's D and the lack of creativity and how we've been clearly owned is a indictment of Sutton.

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The one thing I would say is dump Sutton, and see where the defense goes next year. A large part of our collapse has been due to poor defense. Yea our offense hasn't been fantastic but save the niners game our O hasn't been "horrible" it's been average. Teams can win with 17 pts scored if the defense does their job. It just feels like if we haven't put up 30 spots our team doesn't win.

I guess when it comes to the CS it all depends on what type of fan you are. Do you value D? Do you value O? For me it's D and the lack of creativity and how we've been clearly owned is a indictment of Sutton.

Sutton is just a scapegoat...

Mangini is the problem with the defense, his supposed specialty.

Don't forget that outside of being Belichick's pet, and our jealously of all things NE (to our own detriment) Mangini did nothing to earn his shot. NOTHING. He took over NE's defense and ran it into the ground in his first season.

If we miss the playoffs and don't make a run at Cowher I'll lose my fricken mind..

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Sutton is just a scapegoat...

I agree with you there, but do you think that may be the case simply because of Sutton and his lame duck status? If we bring in Ryan or Crennel next year, do you think Mangini would give them more control of the defense?

It seems like Sutton is in charge of calling the plays during the game, but Mangini comes up with the game plans during the week. With a DC like Ryan or Crennel, maybe they will be given more control in game planning as well as executing?

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Sutton is just a scapegoat...

Mangini is the problem with the defense, his supposed specialty.

Don't forget that outside of being Belichick's pet, and our jealously of all things NE (to our own detriment) Mangini did nothing to earn his shot. NOTHING. He took over NE's defense and ran it into the ground in his first season.

If we miss the playoffs and don't make a run at Cowher I'll lose my fricken mind..

I dont' really know much of Mangini's history in NE besides he was supposed to be a "Dback maven". Outside of Revis he really hasn't made and great draft picks or signings for his d-backs, which goes back to the "system" argument.

All I know is this- in '06 our D, IMO, looked "creative" and was very well disguised. Once '07 came and this year we look very, VERY vanilla, with little to no adjustments.

I'll be honest I'm on the fence with Mangini. There are things I like... and LOTS of things I hate. The one thing that scares me the most is his stubborn refusal to be free flowing and change. It's all about a system, complimentary football, execution, etc. If we do miss the playoffs and our D does not change I think this is a big piece of evidence that should lead to his firing.

Why? Mainly because think of it like this... how many sacks did we pick up in the first half? How good did our D look in the first half? And how about now? To me all this means is that teams have film and have figured out the Jet defense, our stunts, shifts and blitz packages. To me it says that Mangini even due to this will not change his views or system. He expects his players to "out execute" and that'll take care of it. Or it could be that Sutton himself cannot adjust to the other teams adjustment. Regardless... I think our D is very eyeopening to what is wrong on this coaching staff.

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I agree with you there, but do you think that may be the case simply because of Sutton and his lame duck status? If we bring in Ryan or Crennel next year, do you think Mangini would give them more control of the defense?

It seems like Sutton is in charge of calling the plays during the game, but Mangini comes up with the game plans during the week. With a DC like Ryan or Crennel, maybe they will be given more control in game planning as well as executing?

Then what's the point of Mangini? If my HC is not going to be involved in the game planning he needs to be more of a motivational guy...

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I agree with you there, but do you think that may be the case simply because of Sutton and his lame duck status? If we bring in Ryan or Crennel next year, do you think Mangini would give them more control of the defense?

It seems like Sutton is in charge of calling the plays during the game, but Mangini comes up with the game plans during the week. With a DC like Ryan or Crennel, maybe they will be given more control in game planning as well as executing?

And that is why I blame Sutton more than Mangini. Calling a 3-4 defense is more of an art than a science. To do it effectively, you have to be constantly reacting to what the offense is trying to do and countering with different looks and blitzing schemes to try to confuse the offense. Much more so than the 4-3. The effectiveness of the 3-4 is determined more by the in game playcalling then the game planning.

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We have 7 pro bowlers. While I agree that "the Pro Bowl doesn't mean sh*t", 2/3 of the voting/decision making is done by the players and coaches. What that means is that opposing players and coaches feel (know) that this team is loaded with talent.

  • Week-in and week-out we underachieve.
  • We barely escape games with wins where we had 20+ point leads.
  • We lose to teams like Oakland, San Francisco and our home opener to New England in their first game ever without Brady in Matt Cassell's first start since high school.
  • We should have lost to Buffalo without a gift from an inept coach (Dick Jauron) that outcoached and outdueled Mangini in 3 of their 4 previous meetings coming into this season.
  • We have a "defensive guru" as our coach yet every week a new, no-named QB puts up his career day against our defense.
  • We barely beat Cincinnati and a Herm-led Chiefs team BOTH at home.
  • We get a HOF QB who throws for between 3,800 and 4,200 yards every year like clockwork while throwing 30+ TDs only to turn him into Chad Pennington.
  • We get rid of Chad Pennington and he looks like 100x's the QB he ever did under this coaching staff.

Etc, etc, etc.

Need I go on? We win in spite of our coach, not because of him. When we lose it is obvious that we just couldn't overcome his stupidity on that given day. With a competent head coach and coaching staff this team would be a minimum of 11-3 right now.

Mangini is proving himself to be a clown. Plain and simple.

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We have 7 pro bowlers. While I agree that "the Pro Bowl doesn't mean sh*t", 2/3 of the voting/decision making is done by the players and coaches. What that means is that opposing players and coaches feel (know) that this team is loaded with talent.

  • Week-in and week-out we underachieve.
  • We barely escape games with wins where we had 20+ point leads.
  • We lose to teams like Oakland, San Francisco and our home opener to New England in their first game ever without Brady in Matt Cassell's first start since high school.
  • We should have lost to Buffalo without a gift from an inept coach (Dick Jauron) that outcoached and outdueled Mangini in 3 of their 4 previous meetings coming into this season.
  • We have a "defensive guru" as our coach yet every week a new, no-named QB puts up his career day against our defense.
  • We barely beat Cincinnati and a Herm-led Chiefs team BOTH at home.
  • We get a HOF QB who throws for between 3,800 and 4,200 yards every year like clockwork while throwing 30+ TDs only to turn him into Chad Pennington.
  • We get rid of Chad Pennington and he looks like 100x's the QB he ever did under this coaching staff.

Etc, etc, etc.

Need I go on? We win in spite of our coach, not because of him. When we lose it is obvious that we just couldn't overcome his stupidity on that given day. With a competent head coach and coaching staff this team would be a minimum of 11-3 right now.

Mangini is proving himself to be a clown. Plain and simple.

I was basically just crafting the same argument. +1

I can understand the patience argument... but it has to be undeniable to most people that there are some very large reasons for concern when it comes to Mangini.

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We have 7 pro bowlers. While I agree that "the Pro Bowl doesn't mean sh*t", 2/3 of the voting/decision making is done by the players and coaches. What that means is that opposing players and coaches feel (know) that this team is loaded with talent.

  • Week-in and week-out we underachieve.
  • We barely escape games with wins where we had 20+ point leads.
  • We lose to teams like Oakland, San Francisco and our home opener to New England in their first game ever without Brady in Matt Cassell's first start since high school.
  • We should have lost to Buffalo without a gift from an inept coach (Dick Jauron) that outcoached and outdueled Mangini in 3 of their 4 previous meetings coming into this season.
  • We have a "defensive guru" as our coach yet every week a new, no-named QB puts up his career day against our defense.
  • We barely beat Cincinnati and a Herm-led Chiefs team BOTH at home.
  • We get a HOF QB who throws for between 3,800 and 4,200 yards every year like clockwork while throwing 30+ TDs only to turn him into Chad Pennington.
  • We get rid of Chad Pennington and he looks like 100x's the QB he ever did under this coaching staff.

Etc, etc, etc.

Need I go on? We win in spite of our coach, not because of him. When we lose it is obvious that we just couldn't overcome his stupidity on that given day. With a competent head coach and coaching staff this team would be a minimum of 11-3 right now.

Mangini is proving himself to be a clown. Plain and simple.

QFT.

And I just don't feel like wasting my time today on the Mangini-Cowher issue. It's just absolutely idiotic. Most of our fans are delusional homers who either don't even watch the games or don't understand what is going on in them. We have had plenty of threads claiming players or coaches are overrated that are having HoF careers or go on to have more great seasons, and that those players or coaches suck. Favre is a prime example of this, then after he becomes a Jet suddenly only the Pats trolls dislike him. Even though he's 39 and a shell of his former self, Jets fans now think he is the best QB EVAR!

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Its called comparable analysis Genius..Your agenda is clear and without facts. your a Mangini hater..and I'll state again you would have wanted the heads of all the HOF coaches on this list..you know it..Just the facts ma'am

Definition

Item by item comparison of two or more comparable (see comparability analysis) alternatives, processes.

Oh, so this "comparable analysis" is equally valid, Genius:

Eric Mangini - 23-23

Herm Edwards - 25-23

Dick Jauron - 24-24

Dave Wannstedt - 25-23

Joe Walton - 25-23

Jim Haslett - 26-22

Mike Tice - 23-25

Jim Fassel - 25-22-1

Rich Kotite - 29-19

Art Shell - 28-16

Sam Rutiglano - 28-20

Marvin Lewis - 27-21

Ray Malavasi - 25-19

Roger Meyer - 21-15

Wally Lemm - 22-14

Very interesting list i'd say...We got the wrong guy..just sayin

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We have 7 pro bowlers. While I agree that "the Pro Bowl doesn't mean sh*t", 2/3 of the voting/decision making is done by the players and coaches. What that means is that opposing players and coaches feel (know) that this team is loaded with talent.

Exactly, the fact that this team has 50% of it's Offensive and defensive starters as pro bowl or pro bowl alternates while looking completely inept for most of the season does not in any way shape or form speak positively about the coaching staff. In fact it's the reverse. It validates what most of us have been saying in that we have the talent to compete with anyone, the coaches just can't seem to put the pieces together consistently.

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Oh, so this "comparable analysis" is equally valid, Genius:

Eric Mangini - 23-23

Herm Edwards - 25-23

Dick Jauron - 24-24

Dave Wannstedt - 25-23

Joe Walton - 25-23

Jim Haslett - 26-22

Mike Tice - 23-25

Jim Fassel - 25-22-1

Rich Kotite - 29-19

Art Shell - 28-16

Sam Rutiglano - 28-20

Marvin Lewis - 27-21

Ray Malavasi - 25-19

Roger Meyer - 21-15

Wally Lemm - 22-14

Very interesting list i'd say...We got the wrong guy..just sayin

Pwned.

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Exactly, the fact that this team has 50% of it's Offensive and defensive starters as pro bowl or pro bowl alternates while looking completely inept for most of the season does not in any way shape or form speak positively about the coaching staff. In fact it's the reverse. It validates what most of us have been saying in that we have the talent to compete with anyone, the coaches just can't seem to put the pieces together consistently.

Word.

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