Assuming we get Steve Spagnuolo...

[Irish Jet]

...We're going to be reverting back to a 4-3 defense. There's no way that we're sticking with the 3-4 system if this guy gets the job. It's not his philosophy. So assuming we get him how do we go about switching to the 4-3?

Where will Pace play? He was a complete bust in the 4-3 in Arizona as a DE and I really don't think he'd make much of a 4-3 OLB because he'll be in coverage even more so than he was last season, which as we all could see was an epic failure.

What would our defensive line be? Who would partner Jenkins as a DT? Would it be Coleman? Ellis? Pouha?

Who would play DE? Bryan Thomas? Pace? Gholston?

There are so many question marks regarding this personnelle and as to whether or not it could make the switch. I've heard a lot of people say that it would help Vernon Gholson as it's his natural position, but do we really know that for sure? I'm not convinced, the guy just simply looked like garbage when he was on the field regardless of what he was being asked to do.

There are an awful amount of issues here IMO and although I think Spagnuolo has a great defensive philosophy the phrase square peg in a round hole comes to mind.

What do you guys think of this? Especially those supporting Spags for our HC position. One of the main reasons I would take Rex Ryan over him is for precisely this reason. Do you think we could build a successful 4-3 system with this group of players?

[Jets Babe]

spag plays a weird defense...he puts 3 to 4 DE's on the line..

[RutgersJetFan]

I would think Thomas and Gholston rotate in one of the end positions with Ellis playing UDT next to Jenkins. Pace will play either SLB or the other DE slot. Bowens and Coleman would work in heavily in rotational roles. We'd most likely sign and/or draft for rotational work on the line and someone to play WLB, which more or less becomes the #1 need on the front 7 in the event of a switch. Either way, the number of weaknesses we have in a 3-4 are pretty much equal in amount to that of a 4-3. 3-4 (ILB, DE, no depth at LB), 4-3 (UDT or DE, WLB, no depth on the line).

In the end, the D's sucked for 2 straight seasons now in a 3-4, I'm not too worried about it. Switching to a 4-3 is far easier than switching to a 3-4. Drafting and free agency all of sudden becomes a lot more open in terms of the talent pool.

[RSJ]

I think it will look something like this:

DE B Thomas, V Gholston

DT K Jenkins, Pouha

DT Pouha, Mosley

DE Ellis, K Coleman

OLB Pace, Barton

MLB Harris

OLB

The DB's are not really the issue here so I won't waste my time listing them.

I would assume he will try to use Gholston like the Eagles us Trent Cole or the Raiders use Derrick Burgess or the Jets tried to use J Abraham. You really need another DT as much or more than you need a DE, imho. Also I'm not sure Barton or Pace would make good strongside LB's becase Pace can't cover a TE all game, nor would you want him to and Barton would not be strong enough at the point of attack if you line him up over the TE. So therefor you would need a strongside LB. We would need Gholston to develop in this defense more than if we stuck with a 3-4 because we reall have no pass rushers. Hopefully Spags could develop Gholston better than the previous staff and that would make the transition much smoother since you really need your front four to create pressure on its own in the 4-3 without blitzing too much. The one thing I will say about Spags is that he has done a lot with little talent in the secondary and LB's. His front four was very talented with the Giants however.

[Klecko73isGod]

...We're going to be reverting back to a 4-3 defense. There's no way that we're sticking with the 3-4 system if this guy gets the job. It's not his philosophy. So assuming we get him how do we go about switching to the 4-3?

Where will Pace play? He was a complete bust in the 4-3 in Arizona as a DE and I really don't think he'd make much of a 4-3 OLB because he'll be in coverage even more so than he was last season, which as we all could see was an epic failure.

What would our defensive line be? Who would partner Jenkins as a DT? Would it be Coleman? Ellis? Pouha?

Who would play DE? Bryan Thomas? Pace? Gholston?

There are so many question marks regarding this personnelle and as to whether or not it could make the switch. I've heard a lot of people say that it would help Vernon Gholson as it's his natural position, but do we really know that for sure? I'm not convinced, the guy just simply looked like garbage when he was on the field regardless of what he was being asked to do.

There are an awful amount of issues here IMO and although I think Spagnuolo has a great defensive philosophy the phrase square peg in a round hole comes to mind.

What do you guys think of this? Especially those supporting Spags for our HC position. One of the main reasons I would take Rex Ryan over him is for precisely this reason. Do you think we could build a successful 4-3 system with this group of players?

Not necessarily.

Tomlin was a 4-3 guy when he took over the Steelers and kept the 3-4 because they had the pieces in place.

[ECURB]

Not necessarily.

Tomlin was a 4-3 guy when he took over the Steelers and kept the 3-4 because they had the pieces in place.

LOL

Not even close to being the same here... the JETS are just as much of a 3-4 team as they are a 4-3 team... thats part of the reason Mangini is gone...

[RSJ]

One more thing to add is that we don't have a strong side LB for the 3-4 either and that was a large part of our defenses problem and some of the reason we played a lot of zone defense. Our defense lacked a Carl Banks, Daryl Talley, or someone like that who could cover the TE. So either defense we still need some of the same players.

[Klecko73isGod]

LOL

Not even close to being the same here... the JETS are just as much of a 3-4 team as they are a 4-3 team... thats part of the reason Mangini is gone...

Personally, I think this is a dumb conversation to have before we hire a head coach.

People are getting themselves worked up over nothing.

And yes, it is the same. Your argument would have been stronger had you said something like, "what the hell does it matter, the Steelers D was great, ours sucks."

[124]

DE - Vernon Gholston

DT - Kris Jenkins

DT - Sione Pouha / CJ Mosley / ???

DE - Shaun Ellis / Kenyon Coleman / Calvin Pace

OLB - Calvin Pace / Eric Barton / ???

MLB - David Harris / ???

OLB - Eric Barton / David Harris (played 43 OLB in college, if he can slide inside we could have Barton here, obviously) / ???

CB - Darrelle Revis

CB - Dwight Lowery / ???

S - Kerry Rhodes

S - Eric Smith / Abram Elam / ???

[ECURB]

Personally, I think this is a dumb conversation to have before we hire a head coach.

People are getting themselves worked up over nothing.

And yes, it is the same. Your argument would have been stronger had you said something like, "what the hell does it matter, the Steelers D was great, ours sucks."

Its not the same... the Steelers would have downgraded by going to the 4-3... they had 3-4 parts...

the JETS have converted 4-3 guys... most not playing GREAT... and most can switch right back over to the 4-3 and some will do better in it...

[DMaynard]

Whether we switch to the 4-3 or stay in the 3-4 (and I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that Spags would switch), we have some holes to fill. Yes, I think any coach with half a brain could get more out of this crew in any style defense than dumb and dumber (Mangini/Sutton), but we do need some more pieces.

[Irish Jet]

Not necessarily.

Tomlin was a 4-3 guy when he took over the Steelers and kept the 3-4 because they had the pieces in place.

No, he kept the 3-4 for one reason and one reason only - Dick LeBeau. He realized that it was HIS defense and that over the years it had been one of the most dominant groups in the league. Tomlin was never going to jeopradize what LeBeau had built.

Do you really think Bob Sutton's Jets defense will merit the same respect?

Don't count on it.

[will]

I think it will look something like this:

DE B Thomas, V Gholston

DT K Jenkins, Pouha

DT Pouha, Mosley

DE Ellis, K Coleman

OLB Pace, Barton

MLB Harris

OLB

The DB's are not really the issue here so I won't waste my time listing them.

I would assume he will try to use Gholston like the Eagles us Trent Cole or the Raiders use Derrick Burgess or the Jets tried to use J Abraham. You really need another DT as much or more than you need a DE, imho. Also I'm not sure Barton or Pace would make good strongside LB's becase Pace can't cover a TE all game, nor would you want him to and Barton would not be strong enough at the point of attack if you line him up over the TE. So therefor you would need a strongside LB. We would need Gholston to develop in this defense more than if we stuck with a 3-4 because we reall have no pass rushers. Hopefully Spags could develop Gholston better than the previous staff and that would make the transition much smoother since you really need your front four to create pressure on its own in the 4-3 without blitzing too much. The one thing I will say about Spags is that he has done a lot with little talent in the secondary and LB's. His front four was very talented with the Giants however.

Thomas will be released and sign with the Patriots. He will then be released by the Pats in training camp.

I think Pace and Gholston would be DEs.

Its depressing to think about.

I really thought given time Mangini would be a great HC. But circumstances conspired against him. To me, Chad's ineffectiveness last season and the foisting upon him of Favre this year were the reasons he couldn't build on the success he had as a rookie coach.

[Klecko73isGod]

Its not the same... the Steelers would have downgraded by going to the 4-3... they had 3-4 parts...

the JETS have converted 4-3 guys... most not playing GREAT... and most can switch right back over to the 4-3 and some will do better in it...

Pace sucked in the 4-3. SUCKED. Thomas was not existent in the 4-3, at least in the 3-4 he appears to be breathing. Ellis was drafted by Parcells as a 3-4 DE and had nine sacks doing just that as a rookie. It's actually a more natural position to him.

So no, you're wrong again.

[Klecko73isGod]

No, he kept the 3-4 for one reason and one reason only - Dick LeBeau. He realized that it was HIS defense and that over the years it had been one of the most dominant groups in the league. Tomlin was never going to jeopradize what LeBeau had built.

Do you really think Bob Sutton's Jets defense will merit the same respect?

Don't count on it.

See ecurb? This is how you make this argument.

[Irish Jet]

Personally, I think this is a dumb conversation to have before we hire a head coach.

People are getting themselves worked up over nothing.

And yes, it is the same. Your argument would have been stronger had you said something like, "what the hell does it matter, the Steelers D was great, ours sucks."

The point of the thread is to question whether or not we should want Spags because IMO it IS a foregone conclusion that he would make the adjustment. The question I'm posing to people who want Spags (And I know there's a lot) is how would he go about making the changes.

[RSJ]

DE - Vernon Gholston

DT - Kris Jenkins

DT - Sione Pouha / CJ Mosley / ???

DE - Shaun Ellis / Kenyon Coleman / Calvin Pace

OLB - Calvin Pace / Eric Barton / ???

MLB - David Harris / ???

OLB - Eric Barton / David Harris (played 43 OLB in college, if he can slide inside we could have Barton here, obviously) / ???

CB - Darrelle Revis

CB - Dwight Lowery / ???

S - Kerry Rhodes

S - Eric Smith / Abram Elam / ???

That's not bad - but Pace will still be a tough fit and I'm not sure if Barton could play over the TE. I believe he is a WLB. Also Gholston is a huge question mark to just pencil into DE.

[ECURB]

DE - Vernon Gholston

DT - Kris Jenkins

DT - Sione Pouha / CJ Mosley / ???

DE - Shaun Ellis / Kenyon Coleman / Calvin Pace

OLB - Calvin Pace / Eric Barton / ???

MLB - David Harris / ???

OLB - Eric Barton / David Harris (played 43 OLB in college, if he can slide inside we could have Barton here, obviously) / ???

CB - Darrelle Revis

CB - Dwight Lowery / ???

S - Kerry Rhodes

S - Eric Smith / Abram Elam / ???

Ideally Ellis should be at DT... who knows if he would accept it... but it should be... and Harris was an ILB at MIchigan... he should be able to play at least at Vilmas level... and we all loved Vilma... lol... I am going to assume Barton wil be gone this time around... too many coaches and he is getting old... they will want a faster LB in there... especially Spags...

DE - Pace/Gholston/Devito

DT - Jenkins/Mosley

DT - Ellis/Pouha

DE - Coleman/Gholston/Devito

OLB - FA or Draft

MLB - Harris

OLB - FA or Draft

So OLB is the big problem... but right now DE, backup NT, OLB, and depth at MLB are a problem... so its not as big of a deal... we nbeed LB's anyways... and the DL would improve in the 4-3 IMO

[RSJ]

Thomas will be released and sign with the Patriots. He will then be released by the Pats in training camp.

I think Pace and Gholston would be DEs.

Its depressing to think about.

I really thought given time Mangini would be a great HC. But circumstances conspired against him. To me, Chad's ineffectiveness last season and the foisting upon him of Favre this year were the reasons he couldn't build on the success he had as a rookie coach.

There is no way it is even possible to put Pace AND Gholston at DE. You can have one light DE which you can scheme around - but not two. Offenses would just run off tacke all day for about 10 yards a clip if we did that. Also you can't go into a season depending on either one to start for you at DE.

[Irish Jet]

See ecurb? This is how you make this argument.

LOL

Seriously though. Nearly all coaches will bring their philosophy to the team they take over regardless of what players are there. Tomlin was an exception because the Steelers defense was a GREAT unit as it was.

If it aint broken, don't fix it applies. Unfortunately, The Jets defense is broken.

[Irish Jet]

There is no way it is even possible to put Pace AND Gholston at DE. You can have one light DE which you can scheme around - but not two. Offenses would just run off tacke all day for about 10 yards a clip if we did that. Also you can't go into a season depending on either one to start for you at DE.

Pace is VERY good against the run. At least he is at OLB. I doubt teams would run at him too often to be honest.

[RSJ]

Ideally Ellis should be at DT... who knows if he would accept it... but it should be... and Harris was an ILB at MIchigan... he should be able to play at least at Vilmas level... and we all loved Vilma... lol... I am going to assume Barton wil be gone this time around... too many coaches and he is getting old... they will want a faster LB in there... especially Spags...

DE - Pace/Gholston/Devito

DT - Jenkins/Mosley

DT - Ellis/Pouha

DE - Coleman/Gholston/Devito

OLB - FA or Draft

MLB - Harris

OLB - FA or Draft

So OLB is the big problem... but right now DE, backup NT, OLB, and depth at MLB are a problem... so its not as big of a deal... we nbeed LB's anyways... and the DL would improve in the 4-3 IMO

Ellis at DT is not impossible. Overall not a bad plan - but I would worry about Pace in a 4-3 at DE and would much rather just use him as a situational LB. He is really the biggest problem in the conversion because he is a very effective 3-4 player.

[RSJ]

Pace is VERY good against the run. At least he is at OLB. I doubt teams would run at him too often to be honest.

He is very good against the run in the 3-4 because he doesn't go against a T and TE like he will in the 4-3.

[Jetkid94]

I think its to confusing for us to go over it. we cant put players in position. i am POSITIVE when they interview spags they will ask spags what he would do, where he would put players, what players would he target. thats the interviews purpose.

[DMaynard]

The point of the thread is to question whether or not we should want Spags because IMO it IS a foregone conclusion that he would make the adjustment. The question I'm posing to people who want Spags (And I know there's a lot) is how would he go about making the changes.

How can you say that? He inherited a 4-3 defense and has been running it for all of two years. And the Giants mix up their fronts and schemes as much as anybody. It is not like a Parcells or a Belichik who have run 3-4s for decades and would never change.

I say get the best mind, and let him do what he wants. I don't think the jets current defensive talent is so overwelmingly built for the 3-4, that switching to the 4-3 would be a big step back, nor do I think the 3-4 would be much of a challenge for a young mind like Spags. We still need more talent on defense, in either style.

[124]

Sorry Ecurb, I'm a Michigan fan and I can tell you that David Harris was an Outside Linebacker at Michigan when they were in the 43. When they were in the 34 he moved inside, but that was only for a season (obviously enough for Mangini and Tannenbaum to draft him). In the 43 he was an outside guy.

I could see Ellis inside with Spags' 43 scheme since he does like to use Tuck inside when Kiwi has someone to pair him with (Umenyiora) and Ellis could play that role. Obviously he wouldn't be as effective, but hey, maybe Pace could play it?

[Jetkid94]

I want spags, but I have a feeling we will talk about this so much and hes not even gonna come.

[ECURB]

Sorry Ecurb, I'm a Michigan fan and I can tell you that David Harris was an Outside Linebacker at Michigan when they were in the 43. When they were in the 34 he moved inside, but that was only for a season (obviously enough for Mangini and Tannenbaum to draft him). In the 43 he was an outside guy.

I could see Ellis inside with Spags' 43 scheme since he does like to use Tuck inside when Kiwi has someone to pair him with (Umenyiora) and Ellis could play that role. Obviously he wouldn't be as effective, but hey, maybe Pace could play it?

Ok cool... so I think if Harris can play OLB it will be easier to bring in 1 MLB and 1 OLB and put Harris outside...

Any LBs that are decent on the Giants coming up on FA?

[SMC]

DE - Vernon Gholston

DT - Kris Jenkins

DT - Sione Pouha / CJ Mosley / ???

DE - Shaun Ellis / Kenyon Coleman / Calvin Pace

OLB - Calvin Pace / Eric Barton / ???

MLB - David Harris / ???

OLB - Eric Barton / David Harris (played 43 OLB in college, if he can slide inside we could have Barton here, obviously) / ???

CB - Darrelle Revis

CB - Dwight Lowery / ???

S - Kerry Rhodes

S - Eric Smith / Abram Elam / ???

Calvin Pace is simply too big to play OLB in the 4-3. There are no 6'4" 275 lbs 4-3 OLBs. 4-3 OLBs are suppose to be sideline to sideline LBs. Pace is a 4-3 DE, but he sucks at that.

[Irish Jet]

How can you say that? He inherited a 4-3 defense and has been running it for all of two years. And the Giants mix up their fronts and schemes as much as anybody. It is not like a Parcells or a Belichik who have run 3-4s for decades and would never change.

I say get the best mind, and let him do what he wants. I don't think the jets current defensive talent is so overwelmingly built for the 3-4, that switching to the 4-3 would be a big step back, nor do I think the 3-4 would be much of a challenge for a young mind like Spags. We still need more talent on defense, in either style.

I agree with you to an extent however the Giants done mix up their scheme too much, they are a strict 4-3 scheme. What they mix up is the personnelle on the lines, they move players from DT to DE, DE to LB, LB to DE etc but they still remain in the same scheme.

I do however think you're right in saying that it shouldn't be too much of a challenge for Spags, whether he switches or not. I'm just curious as to how he actually would go about it.

I'm not against Spagnuolo at all BTW.

[Bleedin Green]

I would think Thomas and Gholston rotate in one of the end positions with Ellis playing UDT next to Jenkins. Pace will play either SLB or the other DE slot. Bowens and Coleman would work in heavily in rotational roles. We'd most likely sign and/or draft for rotational work on the line and someone to play WLB, which more or less becomes the #1 need on the front 7 in the event of a switch. Either way, the number of weaknesses we have in a 3-4 are pretty much equal in amount to that of a 4-3. 3-4 (ILB, DE, no depth at LB), 4-3 (UDT or DE, WLB, no depth on the line).

In the end, the D's sucked for 2 straight seasons now in a 3-4, I'm not too worried about it. Switching to a 4-3 is far easier than switching to a 3-4. Drafting and free agency all of sudden becomes a lot more open in terms of the talent pool.

Didn't the Ellis at DT experiment fail once already? The guy was a Pro Bowl 4-3 DE, I'm not sure why he wouldn't play that position again. Granted we don't have many options for UDT on the roster, but trying the same experiment that already failed once doesn't seem like the best choice either. The bigger issue is going to be if Gholston can get his act together returning to DE or if Pace/Thomas can "unbust" themselves at their old position.

[ECURB]

Didn't the Ellis at DT experiment fail once already? The guy was a Pro Bowl 4-3 DE, I'm not sure why he wouldn't play that position again. Granted we don't have many options for UDT on the roster, but trying the same experiment that already failed once doesn't seem like the best choice either. The bigger issue is going to be if Gholston can get his act together returning to DE or if Pace/Thomas can "unbust" themselves at their old position.

Ellis is bigger stronger... and SLOWER... he is perfect to move over to DT... lol

[DMaynard]

I agree with you to an extent however the Giants done mix up their scheme too much, they are a strict 4-3 scheme. What they mix up is the personnelle on the lines, they move players from DT to DE, DE to LB, LB to DE etc but they still remain in the same scheme.

I do however think you're right in saying that it shouldn't be too much of a challenge for Spags, whether he switches or not. I'm just curious as to how he actually would go about it.

I'm not against Spagnuolo at all BTW.

It is definitely an issue that I am sure will be discussed when they interview him. And it is a plus for Ryan. I just have a good feeling about Spag's head coaching potential from what I hear about his approach and comerade with his players. And I think he is young enough to be flexible. But we will see.

[gang_green03]

Switching over wouldn't be as hard as trying to go to the 3-4 since its much less specialized but it wouldn't be so easy. I worry about it cause it would create more holes then we already have. Some question marks IMO:

Harris - He can play in the 4-3 but I think it would hinder him significantly similar to Vilma in the 3-4. He doesn't really have the sideline to sideline speed needed in a 4-3 MLB and I don't really like him outside either. He'd be OK but definitely a downgrade.

Pace - Was terrible in the 4-3. Enough said.

Thomas - He needs to be replaced anyway but we all know how useless he was in that scheme. He's at least sometimes adequate in the 3-4.

UT - Going back to the 4-3 creates the need for a penetrating DT. We don't really have anyone proven at that position. Coleman would be a poor DT, and putting Ellis there would be terrible.

Our defensive line could survive the switch to an extent and it would probably help speed up Gholston's development, but our LBs would be a mess. Personally, I prefer the 3-4 so I'd be sad to see it go.

[Irish Jet]

The main issue for me is Calvin Pace.

Most players have no problem adapting in some shape or form to the 4-3 but that guy seems to be a pure 3-4 player through and through. He is one of our better defensive players too and I really am hoping that whoever comes in can get the best out of him, because he has a lot of talent.