Did Mangini Panic after Broncos Game?

[Jetfanmack]

http://www.jetsdaily.com/2009/01/did-mangini-panic-after-denver-game.html

The end of 2008 season perturbed many Jets fans. It's easy to look at Brett Favre's nine interceptions and point to that as the main reason for the team's failures.

But that only explains the offense.

What happened to the defense that was an elite run-stopping unit for 11 weeks? As badly as Favre played, it wasn't his fault that the defense turned feeble at the end of the year.

Eric Mangini took the fall for each side's shortcomings, but his firing was a public relations nightmare in the sense that they said absolutely nothing negative about him neither in the press conference nor in the days to come.

There was obviously a lot more underneath the surface. Some of it has risen, such as Thomas Jones and an anonymous Jet's frustrated quotes about Brett Favre. However, all the players were positive and seemed sad that Mangini was gone, leaving many, including myself, to wonder if Mangini took the fall for Favre.

Finally, we have a reason for his firing.

I present to you, from the Journal News, Jane McManus's Jets blog.

Sirius NFL Radio Jets reporter Lisa Zimmerman did some reporting in the wake of Eric Mangini

[CTM]

Read this today, interesting..

I know that Favre panicked. He wore his SB ring on the plane ride to SF to not so subtly remind guys what they were playing for..

As we know with Favre, when he gets it in his head that he's gotta do everything it usually blows up in his face..

[Vicious89x]

Wow, interesting read. It would explain why Rhodes looked so incredibly confused at the end of the year....

[Bleedin Green]

Wow, that's really crazy. And the problem is really thats the kind of thing that when its your leader that starts panicking like that it so quickly and easily spreads. When you are in any type of team situation, be it work, sports or anything else, seeing a leader of the team start to panic, lose confidence, etc. can be very unnerving for everyone under them. From there you have players playing tentatively, a guy like Favre trying to do everything on his own (and like CTM said, we've seen for years how that turns out, and it turned out the same for the Jets) and so on. The Broncos game was a disaster for sure, but I'm not sure it deserved that much of a reaction on its own. It sounds like all of the expectations and pressure built up from the Titans win followed up by laying that egg at home against Denver was more than Mangini could handle.

And if that is the case, it certainly lends further credence towards the decision to fire him.

[indygirl4jets]

Read this today, interesting..

I know that Favre panicked. He wore his SB ring on the plane ride to SF to not so subtly remind guys what they were playing for..

As we know with Favre, when he gets it in his head that he's gotta do everything it usually blows up in his face..

So true, sad but true.

[SMC]

Wow, that's really crazy. And the problem is really thats the kind of thing that when its your leader that starts panicking like that it so quickly and easily spreads. When you are in any type of team situation, be it work, sports or anything else, seeing a leader of the team start to panic, lose confidence, etc. can be very unnerving for everyone under them. From there you have players playing tentatively, a guy like Favre trying to do everything on his own (and like CTM said, we've seen for years how that turns out, and it turned out the same for the Jets) and so on. The Broncos game was a disaster for sure, but I'm not sure it deserved that much of a reaction on its own. It sounds like all of the expectations and pressure built up from the Titans win followed up by laying that egg at home against Denver was more than Mangini could handle.

And if that is the case, it certainly lends further credence towards the decision to fire him.

Very true. The stroy fills in some of the holes.

With this, you can see how Mangini destroyed the season with the Niners game. He had his team go into the game with a completely new defensive scheme and then coached scared in that game.

[SMC]

Also, this is an indication that Mangini is an inherently bad HC and why Cleveland is crazy to hire him so quickly.

Rather than bringing more pressure, which would alleviate the strain on the secondary, he decides to revamp the defense. That ultimately leads to their shotty play.

He is such an inherent coward as a coach (see what happened at DC) that it was never the possibility that being more aggressive may be the answer.

People want to blame Favre, but Mangini ruin the most promising Jet season in 10 years. Damn you, Mangini!!!

[LionelRichie]

this story is total bs.

i saw the same players in the secondary that we saw all season. mangini didn't panick one bit until 2 minutes left vs. seattle.

[Bugg]

this story is total bs.

i saw the same players in the secondary that we saw all season. mangini didn't panick one bit until 2 minutes left vs. seattle.

Don't know quite what to make of this. Can say the Broncos game was under monsoon conditions. After coming off the Pats and Titans wins, the best thing to do would have been to burn the tape and forget it rather than try to revamp everything. Did seem that the mistakes we saw the last month of the season were nothing new, just repeats of the same ones they were making in earlier losses and in the 2nd half defensive bed shattings vs. the Cards and Pats-missed tackles, backs and TEs uncovered, no pass rush.

[JMJ]

I put very little into any media report since they all talk out of their @ss. The only thing I saw different from the defense from around the time of the Denver game and after was that prior to that game, we seemed to play somewhat aggressive defense in the 1st half of games and would not curl into our Manginishell until the 2nd half of games (even close ones). From that point forward, we played shriveled little, cold pool Mangini defense from the opening quarter throughout.

[JMJ]

I put very little into any media report since they all talk out of their @ss. The only thing I saw different from the defense from around the time of the Denver game and after was that prior to that game, we seemed to play somewhat aggressive defense in the 1st half of games and would not curl into our Manginishell until the 2nd half of games (even close ones). From that point forward, we played shriveled little, cold pool Mangini defense from the opening quarter throughout.

To support this, of our players who had more than 2 sacks, only Calvin Pace had as many sacks the second half of the season as he did the first half.

C. Pace - 3.5 sacks weeks 1-9, 3.5 sack weeks 10-17

S. Ellis - 7 sacks weeks 1-9, 1 sack weeks 10-17

B. Thomas - 4.5 sacks weeks 1-9, 1 sack weeks 10-17

D. Bowens - 3.5 sacks weeks 1-9, 1 sack weeks 10-17

K. Jenkins - 2.5 sacks weeks 1-9, 1 sack weeks 10-17

------------------------------------------------------------------

21 sacks in the first 8 games - 7.5 sacks in the second 8 games

[Thai Jet]

Also, this is an indication that Mangini is an inherently bad HC and why Cleveland is crazy to hire him so quickly.

Rather than bringing more pressure, which would alleviate the strain on the secondary, he decides to revamp the defense. That ultimately leads to their shotty play.

He is such an inherent coward as a coach (see what happened at DC) that it was never the possibility that being more aggressive may be the answer.

People want to blame Favre, but Mangini ruin the most promising Jet season in 10 years. Damn you, Mangini!!!

Inherent ? Did someone learn a new word over the weekend ? I totally disagree with most of your post. Did you forget Mangini wanted Sutton out and Rob Ryan brought in as DC ? I feel Mangini was saddled with Favre who he never wanted. Towards the end you could see the disgust in Mangini's face with some of the passes Favre threw. Favre was brought in here to help sell those PSL's. Big time name recognition. Mangini was fired because Woody thought he could get Cowher in here to coach. Again another big time name. None of this makes Mangini an inherently bad HC nor an inherent coward.

[JMJ]

Inherent ? Did someone learn a new word over the weekend ? I totally disagree with most of your post. Did you forget Mangini wanted Sutton out and Rob Ryan brought in as DC ? I feel Mangini was saddled with Favre who he never wanted. Towards the end you could see the disgust in Mangini's face with some of the passes Favre threw. Favre was brought in here to help sell those PSL's. Big time name recognition. Mangini was fired because Woody thought he could get Cowher in here to coach. Again another big time name. None of this makes Mangini an inherently bad HC nor an inherent coward.

Speculating much?

Did someone learn a new word over the weekend? Speculate?

[jason423]

Interesting story. We had heard before that the DBs were completely lost in meetings around that time and the secondary coach and DC were being blamed. That totally falls in line with the defense turning into garbage against the run and the pass attack become even more passive than it had in the past. Players constantly talked about their poor execution of the game plans as well. Maybe this is a reason why.

[#27TheDominator]

What a total crock of ****. I can't believe people will latch onto this as some kind of indication of Mangini's "problems" when, as JMJ said, none of you can admit you saw any difference in the D. You people were denying halftime adjustments and now you want to complain that the scheme was changed so massively that these morons couldn't figure it out.

The team couldn't stop the run as well because they tried to stop the short passing game that was eating them alive. They tried playing guys like Cody Spencer and later Trusnick because they are a little smaller and quicker than the 270 lb herculoids that we start. I'm sure they dicked with the secondary. Maybe if the #2 CB and S didn't blow donkeys they wouldn't have to rotate.

[DMaynard]

What a total crock of ****. I can't believe people will latch onto this as some kind of indication of Mangini's "problems" when, as JMJ said, none of you can admit you saw any difference in the D. You people were denying halftime adjustments and now you want to complain that the scheme was changed so massively that these morons couldn't figure it out.

The team couldn't stop the run as well because they tried to stop the short passing game that was eating them alive. They tried playing guys like Cody Spencer and later Trusnick because they are a little smaller and quicker than the 270 lb herculoids that we start. I'm sure they dicked with the secondary. Maybe if the #2 CB and S didn't blow donkeys they wouldn't have to rotate.

Trusnick looked good.

[Matt39]

The defense sucked pretty much every game this season.

[slats]

Interesting read. My problems with the coach were more with a lack of adjustments than too many. At least as far as I could see. It seemed to me that other teams would adjust to what the Jets were doing during a game - while the Jets wouldn't. And that other teams adjusted better to what the Jets were doing over the course of the season.

As badly as Favre played, it wasn't his fault that the defense turned feeble at the end of the year.

It was somewhat his fault. His piss-poor play down the stretch put significantly more pressure on the defense. The best defense is a good offense. An offense that can hold the football and score points can do more to take the other team's offense out of their gameplan than good defensive play. Conversely, an offense that sputters and hands over the football allows the other team to sit on the football and take fewer chances. Fewer chances lead to fewer take-aways and (as mentioned above) fewer sacks. That's how you lose 13-3 to a two win team at the end of the year.

If they fired Mangini because of his lack of aggression and inability to adjust at halftime, I'm down with it. But I can't help but think he was the fallguy for Favre, too. Just as the Favre decision wasn't looking too bad at 8-3, neither was Mangini's coaching. Favre then fell apart and the coach got fired.

[aec4]

What a total crock of ****. I can't believe people will latch onto this as some kind of indication of Mangini's "problems" when, as JMJ said, none of you can admit you saw any difference in the D. You people were denying halftime adjustments and now you want to complain that the scheme was changed so massively that these morons couldn't figure it out.

The team couldn't stop the run as well because they tried to stop the short passing game that was eating them alive. They tried playing guys like Cody Spencer and later Trusnick because they are a little smaller and quicker than the 270 lb herculoids that we start. I'm sure they dicked with the secondary. Maybe if the #2 CB and S didn't blow donkeys they wouldn't have to rotate.

Teams also woke up and stopped doubling Jenkins. They noticed that if Jenkins was singled, he blew up the center so badly, he moved both himself and the center out of play. They also realized later on in the season his injuries were bothering him, so that blowing up even stopped.

[Matt39]

The last 5 games were certainly a lot on Favre. But when not criticize a defense that couldnt get any pressure all season? COuldnt stop the pass all season?

Was one of the worst teams in the league at forcing 3 and outs? Ditto making stops on 3rd downs?

Favre sucked down the stretch, but the defense was abysmal pretty much all season save the Rams game. Favre had his moments where he played well. I cant say the same about the D.

[shawn306]

The defense has bascially sucked since the day Mangini walked in the door.

As a matter of fact this defense has basically sucked except for some spurts since Herm walked in the door in 2001.

[JMJ]

Just as the Favre decision wasn't looking too bad at 8-3, neither was Mangini's coaching. Favre then fell apart and the coach got fired.

See now, this I can't agree with. Mangini's coaching was equally as bad DURING the 8-3 run.

We opened up huge leads against Miami in week one, the Cards in week 5, and the Pats in week 10 all to watch Mangini go so conservative in the 2nd half that we nearly gave all 3 games away. All 3 of them should have been blowouts.

Also in that 8-3 run, we got destroyed by the Chargers, lost our home opener to the Pats in their first game in seven years without Tom Brady and Matt Cassell's first start since high school, and lost to the Oakland freaking Raiders.

Lastly, during the 8-3 run, we pulled off skin of our teeth victories, AT HOME against the 2 win Kansas City Chiefs and the 3 win Cincinnati Bengals.

Say what you want about Favre down the stretch because he was bad, but Mangini was terrible since week 1 and that can't be disputed. We were winning games in spit of him, not because of him. He sucked miserably all year, not just after the 8-3 start.

[Green DNA]

By contrast, look at the Ravens and Eagles play defense. Not a lot of over analyzing, just attacking. These teams actually look they are having fun when they are on the field. When I think of the Jets 3 man rushes and the piss poor blitzes and compare them to the things I saw yesterday, I feel like punching Mangini in the face.

[Lil Bit Special]

This all seems like behind-the-scenes Jets-generated crap.

First Mangini is blamed for everything.

Then the media makes him out to be the sympathetic loser b/c the owner and GM dont rip him.

Now a story comes out that Mangini panicked and was fired because he tried to change the world in one week.

Yep. Seems like someone is feeding the press info to protect the jets against more bad press.

[DMaynard]

The defense has bascially sucked since the day Mangini walked in the door.

As a matter of fact this defense has basically sucked except for some spurts since Herm walked in the door in 2001.

Those spurts were Donnie Henderson. The last time we had a decent DC.

[Matt39]

Mangini should have been fired simply because the defense sucked from day 1.

[SMC]

Inherent ? Did someone learn a new word over the weekend ? I totally disagree with most of your post. Did you forget Mangini wanted Sutton out and Rob Ryan brought in as DC ? I feel Mangini was saddled with Favre who he never wanted. Towards the end you could see the disgust in Mangini's face with some of the passes Favre threw. Favre was brought in here to help sell those PSL's. Big time name recognition. Mangini was fired because Woody thought he could get Cowher in here to coach. Again another big time name. None of this makes Mangini an inherently bad HC nor an inherent coward.

Nah, I've been known that word. Thanks for asking though.

I didn't forget about Mangini wanting Ryan. Mangini wanted Ryan so Ryan could take over the defense from Mangini. Sutton was mearly a puppet and a scapegoat.

I posted it before from an earlier article, but I'll post this again for your edification:

Too hands-on. Mangini didn't call the offensive or defensive plays, but he was heavily involved in all aspects of the operation.

"The biggest thing I heard from upstaires (the front office) was that he didn't trust anyone," one player said. "He wouldn't let his coaches coach. He had his hand in everything."

Former Jets assistants have complained over the years that Mangini, known for his rigid rules and cloak-and-dagger paranoia, created a difficult working environment.

Mangini was fired because he was a bad HC. His two biggest flaws was his failure to make adjustments and passivity. Have you forgotten why Belichick stripped Mangini of his playcalling duties as DC? Because of the failure to make adjustments and passivity.

[Jetscode1]

By contrast, look at the Ravens and Eagles play defense. Not a lot of over analyzing, just attacking. These teams actually look they are having fun when they are on the field. When I think of the Jets 3 man rushes and the piss poor blitzes and compare them to the things I saw yesterday, I feel like punching Mangini in the face.

Good point...my biggest criticism of the Mangini era is the team never fashioned an identity and never seemed to enjoy playing their style of football. If he wants the JETS to play the 8 in coverage system he seems to favor fine...but he needed to do a better job of selling the system/style to the players and getting them to play it effectively. The lack of energy and enthusiasm the team showed down the stretch was embarrassing whether it was caused by massive changes or just plain passive scheme the players never bought into.

[Jetscode1]

Nah, I been known that word. Thanks for asking though.

I didn't forget about Mangini wanted Ryan. Mangini wanted Ryan so Ryan could take over the defense from Mangini. Sutton was mearly a puppet and a scapegoat.

I posted it before from an earlier article, but I'll post this again for your edification:

Mangini was fired because he was a bad HC. His two biggest flaws was his failure to make adjustments and passivity. Have you forgotten why Belichick stripped Mangini of his playcalling duties as DC? Because of the failure to make adjustments and passivity.

SMC

You are right on this. Mangini knew Sutton could not cut as an NFL DC but still did not replace him. That's the bigger foul. We know he wanted Ryan but he refused to act until he had the perfect guy (in his mind) for his team. He should have fired Sutton after last year and hired the best available and he might still have a job. The lesson is...When you have to replace a leader who isn't getting the job done don't delay you risk the success of the entire organization.

[jason423]

What a total crock of ****. I can't believe people will latch onto this as some kind of indication of Mangini's "problems" when, as JMJ said, none of you can admit you saw any difference in the D. You people were denying halftime adjustments and now you want to complain that the scheme was changed so massively that these morons couldn't figure it out.

The team couldn't stop the run as well because they tried to stop the short passing game that was eating them alive. They tried playing guys like Cody Spencer and later Trusnick because they are a little smaller and quicker than the 270 lb herculoids that we start. I'm sure they dicked with the secondary. Maybe if the #2 CB and S didn't blow donkeys they wouldn't have to rotate.

I dont think that is totally true. Some of us mentioned about how something changed in regard to the run defense, tackling, penetration up the middle, and pursuit of the players. I didnt think it had anything to do with scheme, I thought it had more to do with the Jets just being outcoached, but there was a significant difference in play after that point. The story did come out (after the SF game I think) that Mangini was furious with Sutton and Henderson because the DBs all were totally unprepared and did not understand any of the coverage schemes. There was also the story that Mangini took over the defense. I dont think its a leap of faith to say he probably changed certain things they were doing. Not that the defense was good all year, but they went from just slight below average to awful post Denver.

[JMJ]

I can't believe people will latch onto this as some kind of indication of Mangini's "problems" when, as JMJ said, none of you can admit you saw any difference in the D.

Just for clarification, I did say I saw a change in the D. I said I don't believe the report as stated because the media is full of a bunch of clueless hacks who report crap with little-to-no validation and facts. However, I did see a change in the defense. As I stated (and provided statistics to support it), we at least used to play aggressive defense the first half of games in the beginning of the season before curling up into our Manginishell in the 2nd half of games. Toward the middle and end of the season even that went out the door and we played Eric's brand of p*ssy, passive defense entire games long.

If you add up the sack totals of all players on our team that had more than 2 sacks this season (Ellis, Pace, Thomas, Bowens, Jenkins), they combined for 21 sacks in the first 8 games of the season. Those same players combined for only 7.5 sacks in the second 8 games of the season.

That surely points to a non-aggressive defense getting EVEN MORE conservative in the 2nd half of the season.

[Barton]

How has Sutton not been fired yet?

[JMJ]

How has Sutton not been fired yet?

When a new coach comes in he will surely (ok, more than likely) relieve Sutton of his duties. It probably had more to do with:

A. Not wanting to create an even larger media circus around the time they fired Mangini since they knew the new coach would relieve him of the duties anyway.

B. Possibly, possibly wanting to keep him around as some sort of LBs coach or something like he was prior to being DC.

C. Maybe management knows this really was Eric's defense and feel he should be given a fair shake to keep some type of job on the staff when a new coach comes in and reviews and interviews everyone.

[#27TheDominator]

I dont think that is totally true. Some of us mentioned about how something changed in regard to the run defense, tackling, penetration up the middle, and pursuit of the players. I didnt think it had anything to do with scheme, I thought it had more to do with the Jets just being outcoached, but there was a significant difference in play after that point. The story did come out (after the SF game I think) that Mangini was furious with Sutton and Henderson because the DBs all were totally unprepared and did not understand any of the coverage schemes. There was also the story that Mangini took over the defense. I dont think its a leap of faith to say he probably changed certain things they were doing. Not that the defense was good all year, but they went from just slight below average to awful post Denver.

Your an intelligent guy, so could you explain this? I have no idea what this means. How many factors are there? There is scheme and there is execution. You didn't think it was scheme, but it was being outcoached? The coach makes the scheme, the players play. I suppose you could blame the coach that the players can't play the scheme, but I never heard anybody here propose that. What I heard all year was that this was a "super bowl team" that could be better run by a high school coaching staff. The Jets D is big and slow. THEY CAN'T COVER. It's not a secret and it never was. Personally, I didn't see this huge drop off in the D. When they had to stay on the field for long stretches, in particular when Favre **** the bed, they look like crap.

I don't want to painted into a corner where I have to defend Mangini. I think he is far from a great coach and he seems like kind of a douche. OTOH, I think the team he left us is pretty decent and he is a mid-level coach. Parcells made many of the same mistakes and half the board is salivating over his impending return. Yipee. I'm left wondering if it was a mistake to fire him when they did. Not because they shouldn't replace him, but because they should have made sure they were trading up before they dumped him.

[JiFtheOracle]

I dont know how much of it I buy...I mean, how did the writer find this out???

I think Shanahan exposed our run D and wrote the script on how to run against us...our secondary sucked all year.

Mangini just was terrible at making adjustments....well actually, he just didnt make any period.