ECURB Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Is he really that bad? I think he is better than some starters in the NFL now... and also better than some in the past... Better now than... T Jackson Edwards/Losman Pennington Favre/Clemens/Ratlif Collins/Young Thigpen Grossman/Orton Anyone on the Lions Anyone on the 49ers Better than Vick was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is he really that bad? I think he is better than some starters in the NFL now... and also better than some in the past... Better now than... T Jackson Edwards/Losman Pennington Favre/Clemens/Ratlif Collins/Young Thigpen Grossman/Orton Anyone on the Lions Anyone on the 49ers Better than Vick was... Can he throw in the pocket on a consistent basis? I doubt it. Vick and Young were the last QB's drafted that are similar to him. I doubt any NFL team would draft him as a QB. He is a great college player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gang_green03 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The problem is that he's extremely raw as a passer and the offense he plays in gives you almost no read on his pro potential and you have no idea whether or not he can read a defense. His game right now doesn't translate into the pros because his biggest threat in college is his scrambling ability and he won't be able to rely on running over anyone in the NFL and he's obviously not gonna run away from defenders. Also, even if he is successful with that style of running it will put him at a much higher risk of injury that a normal QB so he'd be unrealiable. Also, he has a very slow delivery and that would only compound his weaknesses in the passing game. He's also inconsistant with his accuracy (it was some what solid last night though). He does have a pretty strong arm and his intangibles are off the charts so its possible he can overcome his significant weaknesses, but its gonna take at least 2-3 years IMO. Probably the GM that drafts him won't survive long enough to see him mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The scout/draft people have 20 different reasons. None of them have anything to do with his leadership, determination and focus. 3 very rare qualities of modern day NFL players. With good coaching, personally, I think he can correct his mechanics, learn how to read the defense and go through his progression just as every other QB in the NFL had to do at some point in their career. But, I am no expert. The one thing that I do know, is he continues to prove people wrong and seems to get a kick out of it. I wouldnt be surprised at all if Tebow makes a very fine NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 You can teach someone to be a good QB... you cant teach athleticism and the desire to win... I think he would be a great pickup for a team at QB... Minnesota would win 12 games with him at QB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 You're talking about a college QB which means you have absolutely NO idea whether he's better than those guys. For all you or anyone else knows he could turn out to be worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 You're talking about a college QB which means you have absolutely NO idea whether he's better than those guys. For all you or anyone else knows he could turn out to be worse. That's the case with any college player though... the difference here is Tebow has everything it takes except the refined QB specific skills... most of the refined QB skills you learn in college do not translate to begin with... stick him with a good QB coach and he will be good... even the "best" college QBs need to learn how to play the NFL game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Can he throw in the pocket on a consistent basis? I doubt it. Vick and Young were the last QB's drafted that are similar to him. I doubt any NFL team would draft him as a QB. He is a great college player. Yup. Although Vick and Young had much greater physical ability (Especially Vick). Vicks game had the potential to translate into greatness at the NFL level. He had ridiculous speed, strong arm, quick release and had decent accuracy. Tebow IMO has average speed (when talking NFL standards), a very slow release, horrible mechanics with average accuracy and his strengths mainly his power running don't translate well in the NFL were guys will be bigger, stronger and smarter. I don't think he'll be a QB, I relly don't. The guy has a strong arm, that's pretty much all he's got going for him IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gang_green03 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 That's the case with any college player though... the difference here is Tebow has everything it takes except the refined QB specific skills... most of the refined QB skills you learn in college do not translate to begin with... stick him with a good QB coach and he will be good... even the "best" college QBs need to learn how to play the NFL game... Its not easy to teach accuracy, reading defenses, going through progressions, throwing mechanics, etc. If that were the case every college QB with a strong arm would be successful. Maybe he'll learn but he's starting from a very deep hole that most young players don't climb out of. It takes more than intangibles to be a good NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Its not easy to teach accuracy, reading defenses, going through progressions, throwing mechanics, etc. If that were the case every college QB with a strong arm would be successful. Maybe he'll learn but he's starting from a very deep hole that most young players don't climb out of. It takes more than intangibles to be a good NFL QB. We learned that the hard way! He is built like a pro though... has physical talent... all he lacks is the "brains" part of it... and most college QBs have to re-learn how to QB in the pro's anyways... dont forget its tough to look accurate when your throwing to WR's that will likely be working 9-5 in a year or two... its easier when you have NFL receivers running routes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yup. Although Vick and Young had much greater physical ability (Especially Vick). Vicks game had the potential to translate into greatness at the NFL level. He had ridiculous speed, strong arm, quick release and had decent accuracy. Tebow IMO has average speed (when talking NFL standards), a very slow release, horrible mechanics with average accuracy and his strengths mainly his power running don't translate well in the NFL were guys will be bigger, stronger and smarter. I don't think he'll be a QB, I relly don't. The guy has a strong arm, that's pretty much all he's got going for him IMO. Yup. I can't see him being successful unless he gets with a very creative OC. I said this somewhere else, but Miami should take him in the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yup. I can't see him being successful unless he gets with a very creative OC. I said this somewhere else, but Miami should take him in the third. He would be fantastic in Miami... they could run the Wildcat with him and actually use the QB.. scary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 We learned that the hard way! He is built like a pro though... has physical talent... all he lacks is the "brains" part of it... and most college QBs have to re-learn how to QB in the pro's anyways... dont forget its tough to look accurate when your throwing to WR's that will likely be working 9-5 in a year or two... its easier when you have NFL receivers running routes... It's more than that. His mechanics IMO are the biggest problem. His footwork is awful, his release is incredibly drawn out and he just doesn't IMO translate into a good NFL QB. He will get destroyed in the pro's if he tries to play QB, I seriously think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodWearsAGrayHoodie Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Tebow would be a project. It would take at least a full year to figure out if he has what it takes. For me that means not worth drafting in the first two rounds. Third round pick small signing bonus and only slightly above league min, place 3rd on the QB depth chart -- sure. Top ten pick with a $40 million price tag, imho, not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 You can teach someone to be a good QB... you cant teach athleticism and the desire to win... I think he would be a great pickup for a team at QB... Minnesota would win 12 games with him at QB... We learned that the hard way! He is built like a pro though... has physical talent... all he lacks is the "brains" part of it... and most college QBs have to re-learn how to QB in the pro's anyways... dont forget its tough to look accurate when your throwing to WR's that will likely be working 9-5 in a year or two... its easier when you have NFL receivers running routes... "Teaching" a QB isn't that easy. From Pop Warner up into college the QB is the best athlete because you want the ball in his hands. By the pro level the QB is almost never one of the top athletes on the team. That's because it's not that easy to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Tebow would be a project. It would take at least a full year to figure out if he has what it takes. For me that means not worth drafting in the first two rounds. Third round pick small signing bonus and only slightly above league min, place 3rd on the QB depth chart -- sure. Top ten pick with a $40 million price tag, imho, not worth it. I agree.... not worth a ton of money up front... but if he starts to look good you better extend him quick... An NFL team would have to bring him along just like Florida did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 "Teaching" a QB isn't that easy. From Pop Warner up into college the QB is the best athlete because you want the ball in his hands. By the pro level the QB is almost never one of the top athletes on the team. That's because it's not that easy to teach. Tebow could have played with Pats and gone 11-5 Sh1t he may have beaten us twice 12-4 make it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 "Teaching" a QB isn't that easy. From Pop Warner up into college the QB is the best athlete because you want the ball in his hands. By the pro level the QB is almost never one of the top athletes on the team. That's because it's not that easy to teach. No its because in the NFL the QB doesn't need to be the best athlete... Tebow could be one of the best athletes on the field... and he has "it"... Im not saying its easy to teach him... but he has everything you cant teach someone... which IMO is better than someone who already knows how to be good but lacks the things that cant be tough... which are most QBs out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Its not easy to teach accuracy, reading defenses, going through progressions, throwing mechanics, etc. If that were the case every college QB with a strong arm would be successful. Maybe he'll learn but he's starting from a very deep hole that most young players don't climb out of. It takes more than intangibles to be a good NFL QB. Spot on. I don't think Tebow has ever needed to do those things. On Florida's TD drive in the 4th qtr last night Tebow took two steps forward (faking the run) and then threw a pass right down the middle that was caught for a 1st down. He didn't read anything on that play. His head didn't even move as he locked on to the receiver. It was a nice throw (a little wobbly) but the DB's were faked out by his fake run. I just can't see the guy being an NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gang_green03 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 We learned that the hard way! He is built like a pro though... has physical talent... all he lacks is the "brains" part of it... and most college QBs have to re-learn how to QB in the pro's anyways... dont forget its tough to look accurate when your throwing to WR's that will likely be working 9-5 in a year or two... its easier when you have NFL receivers running routes... I disagree. He does have the body and a strong arm but that's about it in terms of tangible traits. He lacks more than the "brains" part of being a QB. He has poor mechanics, very inconsistant accuracy, and a slow release. Those traits alone usually doom a young QB. Combine that with his lack of experience in anything that even resembles a pro style offense and it screams bust. The only reason he even has a reasonable chance to overcome all this is because of his off the charts intangibles. Also, supporting cast definitely doesn't hurt his effectiveness. He benefits greatly from having very fast receivers that can take short throws and create lots of YAC. Percy Harvin yesterday was a prime example of this. Regardless of the fact that I agree that his WR's won't be good in the NFL they are very good in the college game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I disagree. He does have the body and a strong arm but that's about it in terms of tangible traits. He lacks more than the "brains" part of being a QB. He has poor mechanics, very inconsistant accuracy, and a slow release. Those traits alone usually doom a young QB. Combine that with his lack of experience in anything that even resembles a pro style offense and it screams bust. The only reason he even has a reasonable chance to overcome all this is because of his off the charts intangibles. Also, supporting cast definitely doesn't hurt his effectiveness. He benefits greatly from having very fast receivers that can take short throws and create lots of YAC. Percy Harvin yesterday was a prime example of this. Regardless of the fact that I agree that his WR's won't be good in the NFL they are very good in the college game. Hello I will take Tebow over mama cass right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Can he throw in the pocket on a consistent basis? I doubt it. Vick and Young were the last QB's drafted that are similar to him. I doubt any NFL team would draft him as a QB. He is a great college player. Watching alot of ESPN huh? Not that I think Tebow is an excellent player. I really think his attitude is manufactured for the camera with his on the field celebration anticks during a "live" and ongoing offensive drive, as well as his post game interviews. I can care less for all of that and quite frankly,....I just dont believe him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Watching alot of ESPN huh? Not that I think Tebow is an excellent player. I really think his attitude is manufactured for the camera with his on the field celebration anticks during a "live" and ongoing offensive drive, as well as his post game interviews. I can care less for all of that and quite frankly,....I just dont believe him. I think you missed what I meant: 1). I don't care if he loves Jesus or Satan and celebrates like he won the Super Bowl after every play. That has nothing to do with my opinion on him 2). He is an excellent College player. I'll even say the guy is a dominant College player. The stats don't lie. 3). He will suck donkey balls as an NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think you missed what I meant: 1). I don't care if he loves Jesus or Satan and celebrates like he won the Super Bowl after every play. That has nothing to do with my opinion on him 2). He is an excellent College player. I'll even say the guy is a dominant College player. The stats don't lie. 3). He will suck donkey balls as an NFL QB. Based on what? Most scouts thought Chad had a better arm than Brady... and Brady was nothing more than a 3rd stringer who could barely get playing time in college... You never know... and Tebow has "it" so I like his chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is he really that bad? I think he is better than some starters in the NFL now... and also better than some in the past... Better now than... T Jackson Edwards/Losman Pennington Favre/Clemens/Ratlif Collins/Young Thigpen Grossman/Orton Anyone on the Lions Anyone on the 49ers Better than Vick was... Seriously, Look who you're comparing him to be better than. Chad Pennington: (2 time comeback player of the year and Runner-up for MVP of the league this year). Brett Favre: (had one bad year with the Jets and now his career is being thrown under the bus??? C'mon! He's a legend. Mind you, any Jet fan paying attention obviously seen that Brett Favre was injured since the Oakland game. This one IMO was quite disrespectful of you) Brett Ratliff: (hasnt gotten a chance to really prove himself on the field, yet he has a huge amount of Jet fans supporting him given what we seen in the preseason. all I've seen is Tebow act up and be the BCS #1 posterchild on TV). Michael Vick: (This man BY HIMSELF single handedly revolutionized the QB position. He's the reason why players like Vince Young even got a Job. Not to mention that he was a fast as a Wide receiver, with the awareness of a Running back and a cannon like Favre....just not as accurate. C'mon. Vick made Defenses scared and made teams re-evaluate two weeks before playing against him). Detroit Lions (First off, The Lions have one hell of a WR on their team, none the less. You compared him to a team that was winless. Its not like you compared his talent to something else that was "good" or "great". Its not a compliment to say that you're better than the worst team in the world. San Fran 49ers: (Same thing. They are in a transitional period. What can be interpreted by your words is "the 49ers would RELEASE EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on their roster just for this "college kid" who indirectly jerked Utah out of the National Championship" The only QB worthy of a team releasing every player on their team to start fresh with is Peyton Manning...PERIOD). T. Jackson, Thigpen, Orton, Grossman, Clemens etc: (These QB's were hit and miss so far. How does that put Tebow in such a good limelight?) What you say doesnt make sense bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think you missed what I meant: 1). I don't care if he loves Jesus or Satan and celebrates like he won the Super Bowl after every play. That has nothing to do with my opinion on him 2). He is an excellent College player. I'll even say the guy is a dominant College player. The stats don't lie. 3). He will suck donkey balls as an NFL QB. You're right, he's an excellent college player, with a excellent cast of players behind him (dont forget that). Stats dont lie! Look at Matt Leinart. Look at Ryan Leaf, Look at Akili Smith, look at all of these guys who "College Stats" didnt lie but their Pro Stats TOLD THE TRUTH! This kid doesnt seem special to me. Thats how I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Schlerth just compared to him Rich Cannon. All the same things were said about Rich and he became the MVP of the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The scout/draft people have 20 different reasons. None of them have anything to do with his leadership, determination and focus. 3 very rare qualities of modern day NFL players. With good coaching, personally, I think he can correct his mechanics, learn how to read the defense and go through his progression just as every other QB in the NFL had to do at some point in their career. But, I am no expert. The one thing that I do know, is he continues to prove people wrong and seems to get a kick out of it. I wouldnt be surprised at all if Tebow makes a very fine NFL QB. Who is he proving wrong? Overall, the entire college nation has been given this guy love. he is even given another chance at a BCS title when there was an Undefeated team that should have went (Utah anyone????). He's been given TOO MUCH credit in my opinon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Schlerth just compared to him Rich Gannon. All the same things were said about Rich and he became the MVP of the NFL. Fixed And speaking of Mr. Gannon, Outside of his late career MVP he was just another "solid" player. Tebow is good, but This is the NFL we're talking about. They dont make "Men out of babies" because only Men are allowed. Tebow has been given the highway to heaven in college. This will certainly be different in the Pros. I just dont think he can cut it as a QB or HB. We havent seen what he can do behind the 8ball. This is why there are other QB's in college more qualified than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 You're right, he's an excellent college player, with a excellent cast of players behind him (dont forget that). Stats dont lie! Look at Matt Leinart. Look at Ryan Leaf, Look at Akili Smith, look at all of these guys who "College Stats" didnt lie but their Pro Stats TOLD THE TRUTH! This kid doesnt seem special to me. Thats how I feel. Yep. Andre Ware, Mike Mamula, Eric Crouch, Troy Smith, etc. The list goes on. Just because a guy dominates in College doesn't mean he can do anything in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Who is he proving wrong? Overall, the entire college nation has been given this guy love. he is even given another chance at a BCS title when there was an Undefeated team that should have went (Utah anyone????). He's been given TOO MUCH credit in my opinon. I guess its not just Tebow, but everyone said the spread wouldnt work in the SEC. When Leak was here, we werent running the Urban style spread. We threw a lot more. All the experts didnt think that you could use the Urban style spread but what they failed to realize what that Tim Tebow was born to play in his system. Also, everyone questioned his passing ability. Last season he was the 2nd most effecient passer in the NCAA. This season, he didnt nearly run that ball as much and we scored the majority our TD's from him throwing. Nobody thinks he can do it the NFL. Another doubt people have about Tebow. LOL @ he was "given" a chance at a BCS title, lord knows he didnt earn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yep. Andre Ware, Mike Mamula, Eric Crouch, Troy Smith, etc. The list goes on. Just because a guy dominates in College doesn't mean he can do anything in the NFL. exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Fixed And speaking of Mr. Gannon, Outside of his late career MVP he was just another "solid" player. Tebow is good, but This is the NFL we're talking about. They dont make "Men out of babies" because only Men are allowed. Tebow has been given the highway to heaven in college. This will certainly be different in the Pros. I just dont think he can cut it as a QB or HB. We havent seen what he can do behind the 8ball. This is why there are other QB's in college more qualified than him. Like I have said before, I am no psychic. I am no expert. I have no clue what he is going to be in the NFL. I just think its funny that every one is convinced he is going to suck at the next level. What I see is a very determined and focused kid that has a ton of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Tebow>Grossman i wouldn't count out this kid wouldn't be surprised if mumbles grabs him in 3rd rd and trades mama cass for a quick 2nd rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Tebow>Grossman i wouldn't count out this kid wouldn't be surprised if mumbles grabs him in 3rd rd and trades mama cass for a quick 2nd rd That will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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