Arsis Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Nothings changed, these guys aren't pussies. You can throw around old dudes that toughed it out all you want. But theres science behind this stuff, and young pitchers are investments now. Investments that you have to look out for. They are pussies. I don't care what spin you put on it. Baseball players miss games because of spilnters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbro22 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 They are pussies. I don't care what spin you put on it. Baseball players miss games because of spilnters. Yeah man, there really bitching and moaning to there managers about these injuries. Guy, there GM's and personnel are shutting them down. Its not there fault, you think a guy like Joba is going to react kindly to when he gets 'demoted' to the BP this year. I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 If your pitcher throws 30+ more innings then the year before, chances are the next year he'll break down. There's a good read in Sporting News' Fantasy Baseball issue about this. Facts and stuff to back it up. Guess whose number one on there list to break down this year, John Lester. While I don't wish injury on anyone, arm troubles for him could hurt the Sox a lot this year. He's pitched a crazy amount of innings in 08 then he did in 07. I wanna say like 79 more. Too lazy to get the magazine right now. Any pitcher can break down at any time. Lester did throw a lot more innings than the year previous because of him missing time with the whole cancer thing. As far as I know he hasn't had any sort of history with any kind of arm problems. The Sox are pretty careful with their pitchers and they are going in this season with a ton of depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 At least he has a trick. Is this supposed to be a dig at me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 I suggest you do it too. Upside is usually reserved for those under the age of 30. You probably mean potential, which is similar to upside, but not the same... Sheets has plenty of upside if he stays healthy, but is he a young guy? No he's not. Now do you see what I'm saying? I apologize for making you look stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsis Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Is this supposed to be a dig at me? I don't know, you think about it and figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBizkit87 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 You probably mean potential, which is similar to upside, but not the same... Sheets has plenty of upside if he stays healthy, but is he a young guy? No he's not. Now do you see what I'm saying? I apologize for making you look stupid. I personally think he does a great job doing that himself. anyway, I honestly still would rather have Pettitte, because you know you'll probably get 200+ innings out of him. Who knows what you'll get out of Sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 You probably mean potential, which is similar to upside, but not the same... Sheets has plenty of upside if he stays healthy, but is he a young guy? No he's not. Now do you see what I'm saying? I apologize for making you look stupid. up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3766643&name=law_keith While a bit of a risk, Burnett has a huge upside Apparently it's a common word used among scouts. Alright, I'm going to do what Obama said the other day, time to put down childish things. I'm not interested in having this ridiculous conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsis Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 You're arguing semantics because you have not else better to do with your life. Get a hobby. I hear women your age love to knit. So I prove a point and now come the attacks. It isn't even spring training yet. Boy you Yankees fans are hostile. Spend all the money in the world and still paranoid you're not the best team. We'll see. And unless middle 20s women have started knitting, I think they have better things to do with their time. Using Tyler's usage of the word, if the 40+ year old Smoltz is healthy he has a ton of upside. Penny too. I can play this mundane game too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Using Tyler's usage of the word, if the 40+ year old Smoltz is healthy he has a ton of upside. Penny too. I can play this mundane game too. The signing of Smoltz does have upside, the upside is, if he can get healthy, they have themselves a pretty good pitcher, on the cheap. That is if his age doesn't finally catch up on him, either way, there is upside in that signing. Which is why the Red Sox signed Smoltz and Penny in the first place. What is so hard to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The signing of Smoltz does have upside, the upside is, if he can get healthy, they have themselves a pretty good pitcher, on the cheap. That is if his age doesn't finally catch up on him, either way, there is upside in that signing. Which is why the Red Sox signed Smoltz and Penny in the first place. What is so hard to understand? Finally you understand. There is upside to the signing. There is upside to the signing of Burnett too. There is upside to most any free agent signing. There is not any upside to Burnett the player, you've already seen him at his best and he won't get any better. Phil Hughes, Clay Buchholz, Joba Chamberlain, Jon Lester those guys have upside, as in they show promise to get better. No matter the upside back and forth, the Yankees still have probably the third best pitching staff... in the AL East. Maybe that's why you're avoiding the original point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Finally you understand. There is upside to the signing. There is upside to the signing of Burnett too. There is upside to most any free agent signing. There is not any upside to Burnett the player, you've already seen him at his best and he won't get any better. Phil Hughes, Clay Buchholz, Joba Chamberlain, Jon Lester those guys have upside, as in they show promise to get better. No matter the upside back and forth, the Yankees still have probably the third best pitching staff... in the AL East. Maybe that's why you're avoiding the original point. I have seen Burnett at his best, and it's pretty damn good, the problem is, he isn't always at his best, but even when he's not at his best he's still a good pitcher. And I'll go ahead and disagree the Yankees having the 3rd best rotation in the division. I'm also not avoiding anything. You are the one who said the term upside is reserved for players under 30, which isn't true. This will be my last post on this topic, because this is fruitless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Alright, back on topic. I'm all for the Yankees signing Juan Cruz. We can use Marte and Cruz as duel setup men. Cruz vs. right hand hitter, and Marte vs. left handed hitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I have seen Burnett at his best, and it's pretty damn good, the problem is, he isn't always at his best, but even when he's not at his best he's still a good pitcher. And I'll go ahead and disagree the Yankees having the 3rd best rotation in the division. I'm also not avoiding anything, you misunderstood me, that's your problem.. not mine Burnett is a pretty solid pitcher. I'll give you that. I just wouldn't expect more than his season last year. And if that's what he gives the Yanks, they overpaid. I'll go ahead and say the Yankees rotation is good. Just not as good as Tampa Bay's or the Boston's. Same goes for the bullpens. Tampa is probably the best rotation, Boston's is probably the deepest. I didn't misunderstand you, you just didn't use the correct diction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Burnett is a pretty solid pitcher. I'll give you that. I just wouldn't expect more than his season last year. And if that's what he gives the Yanks, they overpaid. I'll go ahead and say the Yankees rotation is good. Just not as good as Tampa Bay's or the Boston's. Same goes for the bullpens. Tampa is probably the best rotation, Boston's is probably the deepest. I didn't misunderstand you, you just didn't use the correct diction. Yankees outbid the Braves by $2.5 million, that's $500,000 a season. So the Yankees paid what they had to pay to get Burnett. Performance doesn't dictate contracts, the market does. and I'll go ahead and disagree with everything else you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisaynon Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Burnett is a pretty solid pitcher. I'll give you that. I just wouldn't expect more than his season last year. And if that's what he gives the Yanks, they overpaid. I'll go ahead and say the Yankees rotation is good. Just not as good as Tampa Bay's or the Boston's. Same goes for the bullpens. Tampa is probably the best rotation, Boston's is probably the deepest. I didn't misunderstand you, you just didn't use the correct diction. uhhh no. The Yankees have the best rotation in the AL East. Sabbathia, Wang, Burnett, Joba, Pettitte(he'll sign) is better than Lester, Matsukaka, Beckett, 1/2(Smoltz), Penny, Wake? Better than Kazmir, Shields, Garza, Price, Sonnanstine as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 uhhh no. The Yankees have the best rotation in the AL East. Sabbathia, Wang, Burnett, Joba, Pettitte(he'll sign) is better than Lester, Matsukaka, Beckett, 1/2(Smoltz), Penny, Wake? Better than Kazmir, Shields, Garza, Price, Sonnanstine as well. Prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisaynon Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Not gonna bother till you do the same. I mean, I could easily go to a Pats board and make blanket statements about the Yankee rotation - but I'm not insecure about our rotation going into next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBizkit87 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 uhhh no. The Yankees have the best rotation in the AL East. Sabbathia, Wang, Burnett, Joba, Pettitte(he'll sign) is better than Lester, Matsukaka, Beckett, 1/2(Smoltz), Penny, Wake? Better than Kazmir, Shields, Garza, Price, Sonnanstine as well. I actually would give the slight edge to Tampa having the best starting rotation. Personally I think Boston's rotation has as many question marks as the Yankees do. Beckett is injury prone just like Burnett is Can Lester have a second straight successful season? Will Matsuzaka ever be anything more than a 5-6 inning pitcher? Will Smoltz even be in the rotation? Will Penny even be in the majors? Both teams have their own share of question marks. I honestly believe though if the Yankees get Pettitte back, and both teams are healthy the entire season, the Yankees rotation is far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Not gonna bother till you do the same. I mean, I could easily go to a Pats board and make blanket statements about the Yankee rotation - but I'm not insecure about our rotation going into next year. If the Yankees don't bring back Pettitte or bring in someone like Sheets, there is a slight cause for concern I would think. Oh, and I don't get the comparison about going to a Pats board. This isn't a Yankees board. It's a Jets one with a general baseball forum. I actually would give the slight edge to Tampa having the best starting rotation. Personally I think Boston's rotation has as many question marks as the Yankees do. Beckett is injury prone just like Burnett is Can Lester have a second straight successful season? Will Matsuzaka ever be anything more than a 5-6 inning pitcher? Will Smoltz even be in the rotation? Will Penny even be in the majors? Both teams have their own share of question marks. I honestly believe though if the Yankees get Pettitte back, and both teams are healthy the entire season, the Yankees rotation is far better. I would also give the edge to Tampa Bay as well, although I don't think all of their pitchers are going to have seasons like last year. Beckett has had his share of injuries but if both he and Burnett were completely healthy, I know who I'd take and it wouldn't be the older one. Lester had a very good year last year and I am hoping he only gets better. He is going to get stronger physically as he is further removed from his fight with cancer. He won't be able to sneak up on anyone this season but he does have pretty dynamic stuff. Dice K was an enigma last season, pitching in and out of jams all year. hoepfully he can gain some control and turn it around. He gave up basically nothing as far as hits were concerned last season. He's a young guy still adjusted to the American way, so I have faith he could turn it around. The Sox told Smoltz he would be in the rotation and be a starter. He's a very competitive guy and feels like he was slighted in Atlanta and has something to prove. I just hope he proves he's healthy. Penny's injury was muscular in nature last season and not structural so he should be ready to go. Is he going to be able to pitch in the American League? Only time will tell, but for a 4th/5th starter you could do a lot worse. Then you have the Sox depth which has Wakefield (who will be in the rotation and someone will catch him and he'll eat a ton of innings) probably as the number 4/5 guy as well. And they are loaded with young guys who might be able to step in this season, including Masterson, but I feel he's better slated for the pen. Even with Pettitte, I don't see how the Yankees could have a "far better" rotation than the Sox. Especially when it comes to the post season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisaynon Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Matsuzaka is due for a regression looking at his unbelievable whip and BABIP. The fact that he maintained that ERA is out of pure luck and solid defense behind him. Josh Beckett is nowhere near CC Sabbathia in regular season terms, that is, if you consider his last 5 years. 2007 was an aberration where he managed to stay healthy for the most part and was a great ace- but in reality he matches up more with Wang in terms of value to a club. I'll believe it when I see it from Lester as well- he pitched out of his mind last year, as for reproducing those stats though? We'll see. "Innings eater" is a dumb baseball cliche. I could eat innings too but it doesn't mean anything if I suck at pitching. As for Smoltz- 42 years old coming off of shoulder surgery. Penny had an option which was reasonable that the Dodgers didnt collect because they knew he was done. Both those signings, as a Yankee fan, made me real happy. Here's the reality for you: Smoltz will have 1 month of solid pitching, maybe shuts out the Yanks for a solid 8 innings (doubt it, he didn't do much when he was in his prime 96 and 99) K'ing 8 or 9 and RSN starts to nut over their new Great White Grinder Who Came Back From ______ (insert disease/cancer/old age) Who Beat The "Odds." Then he retires the following month when nagging injuries. Penny is a repeat of the Fatolo Colon signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBizkit87 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 If the Yankees don't bring back Pettitte or bring in someone like Sheets, there is a slight cause for concern I would think. Oh, and I don't get the comparison about going to a Pats board. This isn't a Yankees board. It's a Jets one with a general baseball forum. I would also give the edge to Tampa Bay as well, although I don't think all of their pitchers are going to have seasons like last year. Beckett has had his share of injuries but if both he and Burnett were completely healthy, I know who I'd take and it wouldn't be the older one. Lester had a very good year last year and I am hoping he only gets better. He is going to get stronger physically as he is further removed from his fight with cancer. He won't be able to sneak up on anyone this season but he does have pretty dynamic stuff. Dice K was an enigma last season, pitching in and out of jams all year. hoepfully he can gain some control and turn it around. He gave up basically nothing as far as hits were concerned last season. He's a young guy still adjusted to the American way, so I have faith he could turn it around. The Sox told Smoltz he would be in the rotation and be a starter. He's a very competitive guy and feels like he was slighted in Atlanta and has something to prove. I just hope he proves he's healthy. Penny's injury was muscular in nature last season and not structural so he should be ready to go. Is he going to be able to pitch in the American League? Only time will tell, but for a 4th/5th starter you could do a lot worse. Then you have the Sox depth which has Wakefield (who will be in the rotation and someone will catch him and he'll eat a ton of innings) probably as the number 4/5 guy as well. And they are loaded with young guys who might be able to step in this season, including Masterson, but I feel he's better slated for the pen. Even with Pettitte, I don't see how the Yankees could have a "far better" rotation than the Sox. Especially when it comes to the post season. Well, I wasn't comparing A.J. Burnett, and Josh Beckett the healthy player. I was comparing their injury issues. They both have them, and you don't really know what to expect in the season from them. Basically this is how I would compare the rotations... Sabathia vs. Beckett CMW vs. Lester Burnett vs. Matsuzaka Pettitte vs. Wakefield Joba vs. Smoltz Obviously you go with Beckett in the big game in September, or October, but in the regular season to get to go to October, you go with Sabathia. Wang has shown 2 straight really good seasons, and the start of last year people were calling him a CY Canidate, before his injury. Lester had that cy young type season. I would go as far as saying when Burnett is on he's no question better than Matsuzaka. Nobody in their right mine would choose 5 inning Matsuzaka over Burnett when he's healthy. Pettitte had an awful year last season, which was actually more like an awful 2 months, and made his stats look really awful. Wakefield is probably in the same boat as Pettitte. The last time I compared Wakefield to a player, Mussina won 20 games. Hopefully Pettitte can do the same... lol Joba has a 2.70 ERA as a starting pitcher, and two really good starts against Boston, what more could you ask from him? He also throws at Youkilis alot, so thats nice. Smoltz who really knows if he can make it in the American League, after pitching in the National League his entire career, especially after a major injury. I agree with talisaynon on Brad Penny. He'll be nothing, and probably wont even be as good as Bartolo Colon. He'll probably be in the minors the entire season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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