TomShane Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-superdome1sep01,0,4489032.story?coll=la-home-headlines Simply an awful, awful situation. Almost surreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjets Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/256k even the cops are looting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Yep horrible. The stuff that went on and in some areas is still going on violence wise in NO is too much. Whatever available military personel we have should be dispatched there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickkotite Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Yep horrible. The stuff that went on and in some areas is still going on violence wise in NO is too much. Whatever available military personel we have should be dispatched there. i hear theres a few willy jeeps somewhere in the arizona desert theyre looking to overhaul just for this purpose. lol the important thing is that were rebiulding iraq though :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 ANARCHY That's what happens when people are fighting for survival ... it removes all that is good and brings out all that is base ... and don't be so sure that you wouldn't do the same This is what happens to a nation divorced from GOD, as has been the trend since the 1960's ... in times of extreme catastrophe, when the majority has no real faith to fallback on, ANARCHY is assured Even with faith there is no guarantee anarchy can be avoided, but without it anarchy is assured Think about the sinking of the Titanic? That happened when America was still a heavily FAITH BASED nation, long before the inception of Secularism as an ideology {or the nations official public ideology} Most of the lifeboats were given to women and children on that fateful day, with most men all but sacrificing their own lives knowing full well they would encouter a horrible death .... what do you suppose can lead men to act in such a selfless manner, LIFE ON THE LINE, and do you sincerely believe the reaction would be the same today? Every action has a reaction ... when we transformed the culture from RELIGIOUS BASED to SECULAR BASED there was certain to be a reaction ... you are seeing the reaction in New Orleans ... in times of catastrophe, ANARCHY WILL ASSUREDLY REIGN Just a thesis of mine ... entirely anecdotal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionelRichie Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 the looting of retail goods, rapes, robberies, and overall vigilantism is completely inexcusable. did anyone see the looting, rapes, and murder after 9/11? neither did i. this behavior, primarily by the under class, is making the rest of america not give a crap about what happens to these people. i have never seen anything like this in my life and i truly can't beleive that americans are capable of this. it sounds like a 3rd world country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I dont have a 'faith' or organized religion..I am divorced from god as you say...I wouldn't be killing...Your thesis is filled with holes..It's usually the most religious who commit the worst crimes against humanity (bush, bin Laden)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Religion has nothing to do with any of this and it is stupid to bring it into anything at all. Just because someone talks to a different invisible person doesn't mean that he or she is going to loot more or kill more or be a better person. Stop with this religion crap. This is a National tragedy and George W. Bush isn't doing sh*t, yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I dont have a 'faith' or organized religion..I am divorced from god as you say...I wouldn't be killing...Your thesis is filled with holes..It's usually the most religious who commit the worst crimes against humanity (bush, bin Laden)... Your first priority would be to preserve your own life, because there is no after-life ... there is only the life you live, then you cease to exist Conversely, one who has a deep and abiding faith believes in eternity, and this takes precedent above even his own life, thus he is far less likely to fall prey to his base instincts in times of disaster ... for to do so would threaten his own concept of eternity Of this I speak of the Judeo/Christian concept of eternity ... I have no real knowledge of other religions, so I will not speak on behalf of Islam ... though my limited understanding shows Islam to be pre-disposed towards anarchy to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Religion has nothing to do with any of this and it is stupid to bring it into anything at all. Just because someone talks to a different invisible person doesn't mean that he or she is going to loot more or kill more or be a better person. Stop with this religion crap. I Just explained why it does matter {see above} Feel free to disagree, but save the PC censorship for the college class-room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 PC censorship? Religion has nothing to do with any of this. You think because someone prays to a different invisible man it's going to change if he helps himself or other people first? If you were in this type of situation I guarentee you you would care for your family and yourself first before the people around you. This type of situation you take care of yourself and your family first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 i guarantee you that 90% are christians.. So you're telling me that if your city was flooded and you were stranded you wouldn't try to fend for yourself first?? I find that hard to believe.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 i guarantee you that 90% are christians.. So you're telling me that if your city was flooded and you were stranded you wouldn't try to fend for yourself first?? I find that hard to believe.. Exactly. Everyone should care for their family members and themselves first, not the people surrounding them. There are many circumstances where you care for someone else but in this case you care for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Stealing electronics hardly qualifies as trying to survive. Maybe food and some clothing can be justified. However, if you are running around in an armed mob ripping off car stereos, jewelry and such, be prepared to be shot and deservedly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Guys this is a terrible tragedy for many people that are effected- lets not get into philosophical reasons for actions. For the real people that have lost possessions and loved ones that is what I am concerned for. For the other events surrounding this and responsiblities of others belong in another place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 right..but that has NOTHING to do with the fact that America is a secular state! It has more to do with the fact the Guns are readiy available.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentucky Jet Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 the looting of retail goods, rapes, robberies, and overall vigilantism is completely inexcusable. did anyone see the looting, rapes, and murder after 9/11? neither did i. this behavior, primarily by the under class, is making the rest of america not give a crap about what happens to these people. i have never seen anything like this in my life and i truly can't beleive that americans are capable of this. it sounds like a 3rd world country. I AGREE! Shoot to kill looters who are stealing luxury non-life necessity items and raping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 right..but that has NOTHING to do with the fact that America is a secular state! It has more to do with the fact the Guns are readiy available.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Exactly. Everyone should care for their family members and themselves first, not the people surrounding them. There are many circumstances where you care for someone else but in this case you care for yourself. That's exactly my point Read my example of the titanic Men sacrified their own lives for complete strangers ... women and children ... but that was a different time and a different place ... the cultural paradigm was much different, far more religious based and far less secular based It's not solely about religion ... it's about reglions relationship to the cultural paradigm ... in other words, religions influence on the cultural mindset What I am eluding too is far more than religion itslef, but one would need to have a mind that is not reflexively hostile to religion in order to grasp what I am discussing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 WE have an agreement that politics and religion are not for this site-please follow that Terible tragedy for many people -I feel lucky to have what I have every day-the End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjets Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 im trying to figure out WHAT THE HELL RELIGION has to do with shooting the people that are trying to help you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 i seem to remember a lot of people helping others on 9-11..and in Godless NYC!!! your Titanic references are so far off base! People were acting like animals then too to get on boats...it was mayhem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It is terrible indeed. It seems the ones who didn't evacuate the city were those too poor, the druggies & the thieves. as far as looting, I looted for survival purposes during Ivan. I syphoned gas out of dive boats destroyed by Ivan & even stole 2 gas cans off a boat. Until you've been forced into survival mode,(its not much fun i'll tell ya) you just don't know what its like Ham, a quick story about the faith based............... our office was spared cause its on the 2nd floor. leaving the office one sat afternoon a bewildered man in the parking lot was asking about a couch & chair in the washed out vacant part of the building. I knew the owner of the furniture & took responsibility for it. cause I had a truck & it was on my way home,we loaded up what we could & I followed him to his house. He lived at mariners cove but the storm wiped out the whole complex. he had a wife & 2 young boys. this place they moved to was missing drywall half way up the walls, no fridge & no generator. he cried with happiness as he was so grateful for the help. I went back to my office & got the minifridge & a generator from our jobsite. It turns out he is the religion teacher at the catholic school. when I told my wife of their plight, we loaded up the truck with my daughters tv, vhs player, toys & a bunch of classic videos for their 2 young children to watch. what a wonderful feeling to be able to help nice people out who were so appreciative. well, I looked them up to see if I could have the tv & vhs back cause my daughter went to college last weekend, only to find out they left the island. Ham, please don't preach to me about the faith based Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 WE have an agreement that politics and religion are not for this site-please follow that Terible tragedy for many people -I feel lucky to have what I have every day-the End Then I have nothing further to add, because I don't see how you can discuss anarchy minus the secular/religious component The secular man is governed by man made laws ... the religious man is Governed by GOD made laws ... thus when man made laws are no longer a threat to the secular man, can no longer inhibit his base instincts, he has no HIGHER LAW to prevent him from acting on his base instincts and/or his desire to survive trumping all else JMO PS. I have nothing further to add if my thoughts on this topic are off limits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 im trying to figure out WHAT THE HELL RELIGION has to do with shooting the people that are trying to help you.... I think I've explained it in great detail ... maybe you just don't want to see the corolation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 i seem to remember a lot of people helping others on 9-11..and in Godless NYC!!! your Titanic references are so far off base! People were acting like animals then too to get on boats...it was mayhem. That's not true ... it's well documented that over 90% of the folks who perished on the titanic were indeed adult males, because they gave all of the lifeboats to first the women and children ... that is an historical fact It's where the phrase was borne ... "WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST" That phrase did not even exist prior to the titanic ... it was borne from that event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 The reason why I don't kill people has NOTHING to with 'gods' law (which is unproven), nothing to do with mans law...and everything to do with the fact that I think its wrong to kill people!! your god buddy Pat Roberston (someone who claims to know gods law called for the assasination of an elected leader!! please get of the god crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 wrong again Ham!! THE AGE of chivalry is often defined by the quintessentially English Sir Walter Raleigh laying his cape before his Queen lest she should tread in a puddle. But Raleigh's actions pale into insignificance beside those of Lt-Col Alexander Seton, an imposing Scottish army officer who, in 20 terrifying minutes, demonstrated a level of selflessness, bravery, leadership and chivalry rarely witnessed before or since. It is Lt-Col Seton and the men in his command who gave rise to the cry "women and children first", which many of them died fulfilling. Lt-Col Alexander Seton Picture: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 ANARCHY That's what happens when people are fighting for survival ... it removes all that is good and brings out all that is base ... and don't be so sure that you wouldn't do the same This is what happens to a nation divorced from GOD, as has been the trend since the 1960's ... in times of extreme catastrophe, when the majority has no real faith to fallback on, ANARCHY is assured Even with faith there is no guarantee anarchy can be avoided, but without it anarchy is assured Think about the sinking of the Titanic? That happened when America was still a heavily FAITH BASED nation, long before the inception of Secularism as an ideology {or the nations official public ideology} Most of the lifeboats were given to women and children on that fateful day, with most men all but sacrificing their own lives knowing full well they would encouter a horrible death .... what do you suppose can lead men to act in such a selfless manner, LIFE ON THE LINE, and do you sincerely believe the reaction would be the same today? Every action has a reaction ... when we transformed the culture from RELIGIOUS BASED to SECULAR BASED there was certain to be a reaction ... you are seeing the reaction in New Orleans ... in times of catastrophe, ANARCHY WILL ASSUREDLY REIGN Just a thesis of mine ... entirely anecdotal Sorry, Ham, but if you've been to Louisiana, you know that the entire state is one of the most staunchly religious (Christian) in the nation. As for The Titanic. First-class passengers were loaded into the lifeboats first. In fact, many of the lifeboats were not filled to capacity in order that the 1st class passengers could bring along their valuables. This is not a religious issue, it is an economic issue. And when taking that into account, your Titanic analogy works perfectly. Just as the well-to-do were given priority to leave the danger on the sinking ship as the poor were kept locked below-decks, those that could afford the means to leave (fuel, a car, provisions, the cost of sheltering inland) got out. Those that hadn't the means, were left to fend for themselves. I imagine that I'd be looting my ass off if my son was starving and dehydrated and looting was the only way to get him needed sustenance. As for those simply stealing for luxury--most of them have lost everything they own including their homes, and are currently desperate and unpoliced. As in times of normalcy, poverty and crime are closely related. I condone none of what's going on, but I understand some of the root causes, none of which are related to a lack of Christianity in the home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehands Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 That's exactly my point Read my example of the titanic Men sacrified their own lives for complete strangers ... women and children ... but that was a different time and a different place ... the cultural paradigm was much different, far more religious based and far less secular based It's not solely about religion ... it's about reglions relationship to the cultural paradigm ... in other words, religions influence on the cultural mindset What I am eluding too is far more than religion itslef, but one would need to have a mind that is not reflexively hostile to religion in order to grasp what I am discussing I have been reading this thread. GJ&H, thanks for providing some food for thought. I agree, the masses have definitely regressed since 1912, I don't know if you can strictly make it a religious issue, but saying it isn't part of the problem is shortsighted. The thoughts of family, brotherhood and helping others has definitely suffered during my lifetime. Part of what we see at the Superdome is caused by the fact that those people using it as a shelter are probably at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. People with money, resources and smarts evacuated long ago in their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionelRichie Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 That's exactly my point Read my example of the titanic Men sacrified their own lives for complete strangers ... women and children ... but that was a different time and a different place ... the cultural paradigm was much different, far more religious based and far less secular based It's not solely about religion ... it's about reglions relationship to the cultural paradigm ... in other words, religions influence on the cultural mindset What I am eluding too is far more than religion itslef, but one would need to have a mind that is not reflexively hostile to religion in order to grasp what I am discussing GJ&H - as much as i respect your opinion on this board i hate to break it to you but you are barking up the wrong tree with this theory of yours. the gap here isn't religious, it's socio-economic. the people on the titanic were the priveleged and rich, the people in new orleans are poor. this behavior is more about the failure of 50 years worht of social programs that did nothing but placate the poor with gov't cheese and tell them that it's not their fault they're poor - it's the man's fault, and more specifically the white man. when will people stop making excuses for this sh*t and start taking responsibility for what is happening. this is lord of the flies or the Sudan - but in america. i never would have believed this was possible. as much as you say religion, anarchy, whatever...bottom line, this NEVER would have happened in the suburbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 humanity has been the same througout history... it has nothing to do with religion.. you have a born again christian president who invaded a country for no reason, killing 100,000 innocent iraquis...That same born again christian president was governor in a state with the death penalty... America is a VIOlENT country with 40 million people living below poverty line, 45 million without basic insurance... It starts with family..but when you govt doesn;t seem to care about humanity why should poor people whose home is under water care???. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Jets & Ham Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 The reason why I don't kill people has NOTHING to with 'gods' law (which is unproven), nothing to do with mans law...and everything to do with the fact that I think its wrong to kill people!! your god buddy Pat Roberston (someone who claims to know gods law called for the assasination of an elected leader!! please get of the god crap. Why do you assume Pat Robertson is my good buddy? I'm Catholic, my friend ... but I don't take my marching orders from any man, including the Pope I have my own faith to abide, and it would not leave me if the entire church passed away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjets Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 i think this thread needs to be locked,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Yep. There are good reasons to keep politics and religion off of these boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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