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Superdome article: people turn into animals


TomShane

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I have been reading this thread. GJ&H, thanks for providing some food for thought. I agree, the masses have definitely regressed since 1912, I don't know if you can strictly make it a religious issue, but saying it isn't part of the problem is shortsighted. The thoughts of family, brotherhood and helping others has definitely suffered during my lifetime. Part of what we see at the Superdome is caused by the fact that those people using it as a shelter are probably at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. People with money, resources and smarts evacuated long ago in their cars.

Finally a man who is interested in a thoughtful discussion minus ad-homonym attacks

You can see what I am referring too because you are not reflexively hostile towards religion ... this thread is actually evidence of the shifting cultural paradigm ... 50 Years ago not ONE WORD I uttered in this thread would have been the least bit controversial ... quite the opposite, the opposing POV would have been odd ... so this is a small {anectotal} sample of the new/secular paradigm ... and I'll bet you half of those who are appauled at what I had to say consider themselves people of faith, but THEY TOO have been influenced by the cultural paradigm ... that's why I said it goes deeper than JUST RELIGION

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That's not necessary, is it? We've got a civil discussion on an important current event. I think we all know the rules--disagreements are fine so long as they remain civil. That's what makes this board tick. That and d!ck jokes.

I agree sirlance, this is a very important topic, & all posts so far are very civil.

I think it has a lot to do with ham being such a well respected poster though.

I understand the looting, matter of fact, a lady on the news this am said the only help they rec'd so far in the way of food & clothes were from the looters. modern day robin hoods I guess.

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would shoot at a rescue helicopter though

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I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would shoot at a rescue helicopter though

It's anarchy, JW ... nothing else ... you are witnessing anarchy

This is the long surpressed base instincts of those who are pre-disposed towards anarchy ... surpressed by the threat of incarciration ... suddenly released without fear of retribution

But I respectfully disagree that there is no explanation ... there is for me ... I know that man is inherently evil, and that does not exclude me ... there must always be some presense of law to surpress mans base instincts, especially in times of peril ... if it is not MANS LAW, it better be a HIGHER LAW ... if not, anarchy is assured

The history of the world is ripe with examples of mans inhumanity to man ... one cannot possess even a mild understanding of history and be shocked by the behavior in N.O.

Sad? ABSOLUTELY

Sickening? THAT TOO

Shocking? NOT TOO ME

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unfortunately when you throw humans together these things happen!

99% of the people stuck out there are committing no crimes...The US could be the most religious country on earth and you'd still have about 1% of people doing this...

it has nothing to do with america divorcing itself from God...and Ham, by the way, America is a deeply religious country...I mean little Bush was reelected b/c of his 'so called' moral values...

This is happening in the bible belt south!

If anything NYC is supposedly the 'liberal' godless atheist town...yet us atheists helped eachother out on 9-11 and the black out!!

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unfortunately when you throw humans together these things happen!

99% of the people stuck out there are committing no crimes...The US could be the most religious country on earth and you'd still have about 1% of people doing this...

it has nothing to do with america divorcing itself from God...and Ham, by the way, America is a deeply religious country...I mean little Bush was reelected b/c of his 'so called' moral values...

This is happening in the bible belt south!

If anything NYC is supposedly the 'liberal' godless atheist town...yet us atheists helped eachother out on 9-11 and the black out!!

bman, you are either missing the point or not listening

1. It is deeper than religion persay ... I am referring to religious influence on the culture

2. Law and Order was never in doubt during 9/11 or the Blackout ... both were still very much in-tact ... in N.O. law and order has been virtually suspended, thus there is no real semblence of MAN MADE LAWS to surpress the base instincts of the population ... if there is no HIGHER LAW to replace MANS LAW when mans law is no longer a threat, anarchy will often reign until law and order are restored

JMO

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I know I am biased...but NY always gets a bad rap IMO. Yet when bad things happen here NYers rise to levels of greatness that we didn't even imagine impossible.

I am not knocking other people. Because I am aware it is a small fraction. Rather I am just praising NYC. The greatest city in the world.

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Well, if God didn't want anarchy, he shouldn't have thrown the farging hurricane at them.

That's one way of looking at it ... you can certainly blame God for mans pre-disposition towards mayhem

I don't, but that would truly take us into the area of a religious discussion and I prefer not to go there ... trying to confine this to anarchy and it's relation to the shifting cultural paradigm, from largely faith based to laregly secular ... but you are free to blame God if you wish

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"if there is no HIGHER LAW to replace MANS LAW when mans law is no longer a threat, anarchy will often reign until law and order are restored "

anarchy will reign no matter if there is higher law or not...You are using anarchy incorrectly...Anarchy is not synonomous with crime and inhumanity....

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I know I am biased...but NY always gets a bad rap IMO. Yet when bad things happen here NYers rise to levels of greatness that we didn't even imagine impossible.

I am not knocking other people. Because I am aware it is a small fraction. Rather I am just praising NYC. The greatest city in the world.

I agree with ya there...and NYC is filled with immigrants, rich, poor, gays, lesbians, atheists, the devoutly religious and we seem to all get a long pretty well....

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I know I am biased...but NY always gets a bad rap IMO. Yet when bad things happen here NYers rise to levels of greatness that we didn't even imagine impossible.

I am not knocking other people. Because I am aware it is a small fraction. Rather I am just praising NYC. The greatest city in the world.

I agree with ya there...and NYC is filled with immigrants, rich, poor, gays, lesbians, atheists, the devoutly religious and we seem to all get a long pretty well....

I hope law and order are never suspended in NYC and man is left to his own devices ... I hope your faith in New Yorkers to act differently, minus any real semblence of law and order, is never put to the test ... you may be very disappointed

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Good gravy, I can't believe I am going to get dragged into responding to this:

Comparing tragedies and peoples reactions to them, as you are is just not a cut and dry science.

Each tragedy has it's own individual variables that make them unique. A plane crash is different than a flood. A terrorist attack using planes crashing into buildings is different than a hurricane that has a delayed levee break with water seeping into a bowl. The wreck of the Titanic is different than the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

People are going to react differently based upon these variables. To place these tragedies and examine them in some kind of vacuum is very short sighted, in my opinion.

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I am 99.9% sure there are 50 cases where people are going out of their way to help those around them ( even if its as sminor as sharing a bottle of water)for every 1 case of rape,looting etc. these do not get the news coverage however. can the media be blamed for sensationalizing some of this? I think so.

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Sorry, JW. I think you're wrong. People like to blame the media for reporting things they don't want to hear.

They're telling us what's happening. It's their job.

The only fault I have with the media through all of this is that there was a sensationalist approach to "weaker" earlier hurricanes, and I would tend to believe that some had become desensitized toward hearing dire warnings.

I understand the need to disseminate information and properly inform, but these things need to be judged on scales better than they have been.

I agree with the method that it is better to be safer and more conservative, but the coming of each one of tehse events has been forecast as the apocalypse each time, and then when you need the apocalypse forecast, it falls on somewhat deaf ears.

Maybe my comment is not fair, I don't know.

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Sorry, JW. I think you're wrong. People like to blame the media for reporting things they don't want to hear.

They're telling us what's happening. It's their job.

says the media man himself :lol:

I experienced devastation here 1st hand & yes there was theft & looting, but what was most prominent was people helping people. Now maybe cause the island population is only 40,000 & lots a people know each other but the better side of human nature prevailed for the most part here.

NO seems to get the most negative press. are you hearing the same such bad press out of baton rouge, biloxi? how about all the small towns. I can't imagine all these places are having the problems they're having in NO

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Politics, religion, etc aside I think everyone can agree this is a horrendous event and the people in the Gulf Coast region need help fast.

I am heartbroken at what I see on tv and hear on the radio. As I type this I am planning on joining a group that will be headed down there in October to help out. These people need it desperately

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That's exactly my point

Read my example of the titanic

Men sacrified their own lives for complete strangers ... women and children ... but that was a different time and a different place ... the cultural paradigm was much different, far more religious based and far less secular based

It's not solely about religion ... it's about reglions relationship to the cultural paradigm ... in other words, religions influence on the cultural mindset

What I am eluding too is far more than religion itslef, but one would need to have a mind that is not reflexively hostile to religion in order to grasp what I am discussing

I'm a Christian and hardly hostile to religion, but I dont see the analogy being apt.

The Titanic was a much smaller group of people involved, of a generally upper class folks. Peer pressure, I'm sure, kept things orderly. Im sure there were plenty of Christian males on board who said damn the women and children, but were held in check.

With the numbers of people running wild in NO, anarchy reigns. Its sad, but its human nature, Christian or not.

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GJ&H, it appears to be you that is missing the point. Religion is not the only law that exists above man made laws by any stretch of the imagination. The values that are instilled in your home and surrounding environment are the most important values that you can have. Being a decent person has nothing to do with religion, it is your basic value system. There are many decent people who do not delve into religion and there are religious people who are the scum of the earth (ie: priests buggering little boys or religious fanatics blowing people up). Do not confuse religion with morality.

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I think this whole tragedy is proof that rules of human behavior are no match for overwhelmingly desperate people.

what really strikes me about this is that i've read that prior to 9/11 our gov't viewed the top 3 disasters that we should be somewhat prepared for

1- terrorist attack

2 major earthquake in san fransisco

3 major hurricane in new orleans

I am to understand that the core of eng's budget was cut by 70 mil last year.

it is disturbing how slow the reaction time for major assistance to this crisis has been, at the cost of human life :(

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GJ&H, it appears to be you that is missing the point. Religion is not the only law that exists above man made laws by any stretch of the imagination. The values that are instilled in your home and surrounding environment are the most important values that you can have. Being a decent person has nothing to do with religion, it is your basic value system. There are many decent people who do not delve into religion and there are religious people who are the scum of the earth (ie: priests buggering little boys or religious fanatics blowing people up). Do not confuse religion with morality.

great post dna =D>=D>=D> great post indeed

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GJ&H, it appears to be you that is missing the point. Religion is not the only law that exists above man made laws by any stretch of the imagination. The values that are instilled in your home and surrounding environment are the most important values that you can have. Being a decent person has nothing to do with religion, it is your basic value system. There are many decent people who do not delve into religion and there are religious people who are the scum of the earth (ie: priests buggering little boys or religious fanatics blowing people up). Do not confuse religion with morality.

I don't argue that ALL religious people are good and ALL secular folks are evil

I argue that ALL MEN ... religious and secular ... are pre-disposed towards sin {if I dare use such a word}

The man of faith is no less pre-disposed towards sin than the man of no faith at all, only his conscience is guided by something that can {NOT WILL, BUT CAN} overwhelm his base instincts when there is nothing left to surpress his base instincts other than his consience and sense of morality

This is why I said at the inception, there is no guarantee that a religious based society would avoid anarchy under similar circumstances {i.e. no real semblence of law and order}, but with a secular based society anarchy is assured

Now this does not mean every member of society needs to be religious, that's why I keep going back to the cultural paradigm ... once the paradigm held fast to a set of values which the majority accepted as the rules of a civilized society, and that went beyond the written laws of man ... it was every bit as cultural as it was legal, and perhaps more so ... and it was largely religious {Judeo/Christian} based

You can see it depicted in motion pictures ... watch films from the 30's-50's and then watch films from the 60's to present date ... the cultural shift is apparent to anyone with two eyes and a brain ... you can clearly see the coursening of the culture which ironically directly corolates to the transformation from a religious based cultural paradigm to a secular based cultural paradigm

You can clearly see the depiction of a society that was far less base to one that is far more hedonistic/nihilistic in nature ... and that has consequences

This is not about "Can irriligious men" do GOOD THINGS, or have a strong set of values ... of course they can ... not every individual will suffer the consequnces of the culture around him ... but many will, A GREAT MANY, mostly {though not exclusively} those who are not privy to the strong home enviornment you describe ... and that constitutes millions upon millions ... and when that happens society suffers to some extent {though we can argue the degree}

But that's okay ... it will likely never effect you or your life ... maybe it will never touch you and yours ... until disaster strikes and millions of people are left only to their base instincts or their own devices, with nothing else to Govern their behavior ... then you don't want to be in the same vacinity as that disaster, because regardless of your own personal values you will be surrounded by those who have no such sense of right and wrong, only an insatiable appitite, no sense of remorse, and a desire only to survive at the expense of all else

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Without slighting all the people of New Orleans, it's entire ethic has long been corrupted; it's crime and lawlessness was everywhere at once before this ever happened; it tolerated and embraced graft. When the civil authorities were so compromised in the first place, once the tragedy struck, there was nothing in it's culture to hold it together. Hack Mayor Nagin's only response seems to be to bang a tin cup against his high chair. And when the whole political culture down there is "I want my piece now!" it's hardly surprising.

Notice that as awful as this has been in that whole region, it's only really gone out of control in New Orleans. When your culture breeds ward heelers and hustlers, you cannot expect leadership to appear when you need it.

NYC was hardly perfect after 9/11. And there has always been something creepy about Guiliani campaigning and extending his career on the deaths of the victims. But at least here it was understood immediately that no lawlessness would be tolerated and all the authorties made a point of appealing to our betters. And while there were minor incidents, nothing dramatic like this happened. In fact, crime dropped dramtically for months.

And know this- Guiliani to me is an opportunist who treats those underneath him like garbage. But at least he had some integrity and didn't go into this crybaby mode we're seeing today. When Nagy did that, it was practically a signal-do what ever youw ant. There's no rules and we won't enforce them.

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Not to get political, but what NOLA is missing right now is a strong authority figure. The mayor is hardly acting Guiliani-esque it seems.

Bingo!! 9/11 was handled by Rudy and the Gov!

The Local and state Gov don't have a clue what

to do! Hermie could do a better job then these

Jokers! Of course the Libs see it as a way to

blame Bush but that's par for the course with

them! Most of the stranded are Minority! NO

is a City below Sea Level and the state knew

for years that this could happen..It did before

in 1927!! If Beverly Hills in Cal had a earthquake

and thousands were lost the Networks would have a

whole different way to show that!! One Fat women

took 1 bite of a MRE (What our GI's Eat) and threw

it away..What No Popeye's or KFC?? :roll:

In Houston the whole Religious Community has come

together to feed and help house the refugees!

And I mean Christian,Jewish and Moslem! That the

Major Network News probley won't show!!

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