Anyone hear what that obnoxious, arrogant prick Schilling said yesterday?

[Vicious89x]

Now you're pointing to single games to determine a players Hall of Fame worthiness?

Oh, and if you want to know who is truly the most dominant postseason pitcher of the last 20 years, it's Mariano Rivera.

Perfect games and no-no's are single games. So are legendary post-season performances. Just sayin.

And NOOOOOO ****. I think we can all agree on Mo. Yankee fans or not.

[Morrissey]

There are tons of guys in the Hall for their gloves.

What's weird is how the offensive explosion in recent years is gonna have a longterm effect on the Hall of Fame prospects of guys who play traditionally weak offensive positions like 2B.

In todays game.. Mazeroski is a backup infielder.

[Klecko73isGod]

Perfect games and no-no's are single games. So are legendary post-season performances. Just sayin.

And NOOOOOO ****. I think we can all agree on Mo. Yankee fans or not.

One game should not make or break anyone's Hall of Fame prospects.

[JohnnyHector]

No, my question was how many guys are in the Hall of Fame who pitched as many seasons as Schilling (20) with as few wins (216) and you came back by naming two guys who both won more games in fewer seasons.

I mean, this ain't quantum physics.

You can't name one and you want to know why? Because guys with so few wins in so many seasons don't get in the Hall of Fame!

Why does the number of seasons in which Curt Schilling spent some time on an active MLB roster have any place in this debate? Throw out the 4 seasons in the beginning of his career, from the age of 21-24, in which he started a grand total of 5 games, and you're down to 16 seasons.

This "20 season" semantics is the extent of your argument, and it's really quite sad that you continue to turn to it in the face of actual, meaningful data.

[Klecko73isGod]

In todays game.. Mazeroski is a backup infielder.

Exactly, look at Richie Ashburn, a CF who played in the 50s (Mays, Mantle, Snider) with only 29 career homers? Yet there he is, in the Hall of Fame. There's gotta be a reason right?

[Vicious89x]

One game should not make or break anyone's Hall of Fame prospects.

Not saying make or break. But it's a factor, it's like a feather in the cap.

[JohnnyHector]

One game should not make or break anyone's Hall of Fame prospects.

He was responding to an earlier post, where I said that Mussina lacks a signature moment that could help him get over the hump to get elected.

Whether or not you agree with the notion, it's something that voters factor in, be it consciously or otherwise.

[Klecko73isGod]

Why does the number of seasons in which Curt Schilling spent some time on an active MLB roster have any place in this debate? Throw out the 4 seasons in the beginning of his career, from the age of 21-24, in which he started a grand total of 5 games, and you're down to 16 seasons.

This "20 season" semantics is the extent of your argument, and it's really quite sad that you continue to turn to it in the face of actual, meaningful data.

Are we gonna throw away the first two seasons of Jim Bunning's career too? Or any pitcher who was brought up primarily as a reliever? Which by the way is an enormous amount of guys.

[JohnnyHector]

Exactly, look at Richie Ashburn, a CF who played in the 50s (Mays, Mantle, Snider) with only 29 career homers? Yet there he is, in the Hall of Fame. There's gotta be a reason right?

Veterans Committee guys usually don't deserve enshrinement, but it's an Old Boys club (see: Rizzuto, Phil).

[Bergen Jet]

Now obviously I take Schilling over Brown but Kevin Brown isn't ever in the HOF conversation but his numbers aren't THAT much different than Curt Schilling minus the ridiculous K totals and post season performances.

You guys love the ERA+ stat and Brown had 4 seasons that considerably dwarf Curt's best season in that category (164, 169, 169, 216 to Curt's 157 best).

Brown is 211-144 .594 to Schilling's 216-146 .597.

They are both 6 time All Stars and they were both top 5 in Cy Young voting the same number of times.

Brown had 4 200 K seasons to Schilling's 5

Schilling as a nice advantage in K's and less than a .09 advantage in WHIP.

If Kevin Brown was a post season stud is HE a HOF pitcher?

[JohnnyHector]

Are we gonna throw away the first two seasons of Jim Bunning's career too? Or any pitcher who was brought up primarily as a reliever? Which by the way is an enormous amount of guys.

No, I'm going to cease arguing with someone who is incapable of understanding and applying logic to a debate. I think I've sufficiently gotten my point across here.

[Vicious89x]

Now obviously I take Schilling over Brown but Kevin Brown isn't ever in the HOF conversation but his numbers aren't THAT much different than Curt Schilling minus the ridiculous K totals and post season performances.

You guys love the ERA+ stat and Brown had 4 seasons that considerably dwarf Curt's best season in that category (164, 169, 169, 216 to Curt's 157 best).

Brown is 211-144 .594 to Schilling's 216-146 .597.

They are both 6 time All Stars and they were both top 5 in Cy Young voting the same number of times.

Brown had 4 200 K seasons to Schilling's 5

Schilling as a nice advantage in K's and less than a .09 advantage in WHIP.

If Kevin Brown was a post season stud is HE a HOF pitcher?

Isn't Brown one of the guys to be considered a roid user?

[Bergen Jet]

Isn't Brown one of the guys to be considered a roid user?

I don't know honestly. If it was reported it never stuck with me.

[Morrissey]

Isn't Brown one of the guys to be considered a roid user?

Yeah, he was in the Mitchell Report

[JohnnyHector]

Now obviously I take Schilling over Brown but Kevin Brown isn't ever in the HOF conversation but his numbers aren't THAT much different than Curt Schilling minus the ridiculous K totals and post season performances.

You guys love the ERA+ stat and Brown had 4 seasons that considerably dwarf Curt's best season in that category (164, 169, 169, 216 to Curt's 157 best).

Brown is 211-144 .594 to Schilling's 216-146 .597.

They are both 6 time All Stars and they were both top 5 in Cy Young voting the same number of times.

Brown had 4 200 K seasons to Schilling's 5

Schilling as a nice advantage in K's and less than a .09 advantage in WHIP.

If Kevin Brown was a post season stud is HE a HOF pitcher?

I think Kevin Brown's disastrous stint with the Yankees fogs people's memories, but I agree that he was a great pitcher for some time.

A few reasons why I think Schilling has the better career:

- NLCS MVP and (co-) WS MVP awards

- Schilling was a runner-up to the Cy Young three times to Brown's one and his '01 and '02 seasons win a Cy Young in just about any other season.

- Best K/BB ratio of all-time. The guy was a power pitcher with great control.

- Brown gave up 3 or more ER in 9 of his 14 postseason starts. Schilling did it only 3 times in 19 starts. That's dominant.

- Mitchell Report naming Brown

[Vicious89x]

Yeah, he was in the Mitchell Report

Yea, that's why I kinda just looked at his #'s and wonder as to when he started taking them. One has to wonder if he was a HoF prior to the use of the steroids

[Klecko73isGod]

No, I'm going to cease arguing with someone who is incapable of understanding and applying logic to a debate. I think I've sufficiently gotten my point across here.

Like hell you have.

Curt Schilling is not a Hall of Famer. Not unless you magically find a way to give him 60 or 70 more wins.

I have used plenty of logic. Unlike you, I have not repeatedly made the same point over and over again, hoping someone will suddenly interpret it differently.

[JohnnyHector]

I have used plenty of logic. Unlike you, I have not repeatedly made the same point over and over again

OK, Mr. "20 Seasons".

[Vicious89x]

Like hell you have.

Curt Schilling is not a Hall of Famer. Not unless you magically find a way to give him 60 or 70 more wins.

I have used plenty of logic. Unlike you, I have not repeatedly made the same point over and over again, hoping someone will suddenly interpret it differently.

L O ****ING L

Seriously? The 300 win argument is the ultimate, desperate manuver by those who personally dislike a player to use against that player to never allow them in. I'm not saying Schilling is a first ballot HoF. But he belongs in the hall.

[Klecko73isGod]

OK, Mr. "20 Seasons".

You've made no logical rebuttal for the point.

I asked you to name a HOF pitcher who has pitched as many seasons and won as few games and you named two who won more games in fewer seasons.

[Klecko73isGod]

L O ****ING L

Seriously? The 300 win argument is the ultimate, desperate manuver by those who personally dislike a player to use against that player to never allow them in. I'm not saying Schilling is a first ballot HoF. But he belongs in the hall.

Umm, do the math.

If Schilling won 70 more games, he'd still be 14 shy of 300.

[Bergen Jet]

I think Kevin Brown's disastrous stint with the Yankees fogs people's memories, but I agree that he was a great pitcher for some time.

A few reasons why I think Schilling has the better career:

- NLCS MVP and (co-) WS MVP awards

- Schilling was a runner-up to the Cy Young three times to Brown's one and his '01 and '02 seasons win a Cy Young in just about any other season.

- Best K/BB ratio of all-time. The guy was a power pitcher with great control.

- Brown gave up 3 or more ER in 9 of his 14 postseason starts. Schilling did it only 3 times in 19 starts. That's dominant.

- Mitchell Report naming Brown

Hence the reason I said if Brown was a post season stud...

[Klecko73isGod]

Hence the reason I said if Brown was a post season stud...

Well, Brown and Schilling are both tremendous pricks.

[Zeebers]

Maybe Schilling should have taken some of that HGH to "recover from injuries". That way he'd have started more games and maybe added a few more wins to his record.

[Vicious89x]

Umm, do the math.

If Schilling won 70 more games, he'd still be 14 shy of 300.

He'd still be in the HoF at that point.

[Otter]

Yea, that's why I kinda just looked at his #'s and wonder as to when he started taking them. One has to wonder if he was a HoF prior to the use of the steroids

I wish the steroids were working for Brown in game 7 2004.

[JohnnyHector]

You've made no logical rebuttal for the point.

I asked you to name a HOF pitcher who has pitched as many seasons and won as few games and you named two who won more games in fewer seasons.

No, I named two pitchers who won a whopping EIGHT more games in more GAMES STARTED than Schilling.

Let's extrapolate Schilling's win total to match the number of games started by Bunning and Hunter:

Bunning

- Bunning started 519 games, 83 more than Schilling

- Schilling's number of decisions is 83.03% of his career starts

- Schilling's winning percentage is .5967

83 x .8303 x .5967 = 41.12 additional wins + 216 = 257 expected wins in 519 GS

Hunter

- Hunter started 476 games, 40 more than Schilling

- Schilling's number of decisions is 83.03% of his career starts

- Schilling's winning percentage is .5967

40 x .8303 x .5967 = 19.81 additional wins = 216 = 230 expected wins in 476 GS

Only a complete fool would cite Hunter and Bunning and suggest that their win totals are more impressive than Schilling's, because they were accomplished in less "seasons".

[Klecko73isGod]

He'd still be in the HoF at that point.

No, then he might actually start to be worthy. As it stands, he ain't.

[Klecko73isGod]

No, I named two pitchers who won a whopping EIGHT more games in more GAMES STARTED than Schilling.

Let's extrapolate Schilling's win total to match the number of games started by Bunning and Hunter:

Bunning

- Bunning started 519 games, 83 more than Schilling

- Schilling's number of decisions is 83.03% of his career starts

- Schilling's winning percentage is .5967

83 x .8303 x .5967 = 41.12 additional wins + 216 = 257 expected wins in 519 GS

Hunter

- Hunter started 476 games, 40 more than Schilling

- Schilling's number of decisions is 83.03% of his career starts

- Schilling's winning percentage is .5967

40 x .8303 x .5967 = 19.81 additional wins = 216 = 230 expected wins in 476 GS

Only a complete fool would cite Hunter and Bunning and suggest that their win totals are more impressive than Schilling's, because they were accomplished in less "seasons".

Only a fool would argue that a pitcher should be in the Hall of Fame because of what his numbers would be had he taken better care of himself and pitched more than he ACTUALLY DID.

I couldn't care less what Schilling's numbers would be had he kept himself in better shape. He only won 216 games in 20 years. He is not a Hall of Famer.

[JohnnyHector]

Hence the reason I said if Brown was a post season stud...

I think the other thing that helps Schilling (in relation to Brown) is that while Brown fizzled out at the end of his career with the Yankees, Schilling still pitched well in his final seasons (120 and 122 ERA+) - and ended with a postseason in which his team won the World Series and he went 3-0 with a 3.00 ERA.

[Vicious89x]

Now I remember why I hate HoF debates. Cause guys like Kleck who hold onto personal sentiments and antiquated measures of success. Point is there are pitchers with less then 300 wins in the HoF. There will be pitchers inducted with less then 300 forever. If that's the case then it should not be a measure of success anymore. It might be an "automatic in" to some, but should not be the reason to exclude someone. Using that in a real debate is a petty way of trying to "win" an argument. It's the only left to stand on HE DOESN'T HAVE 300 HE SHOULD'VE WON MORE GAMES!!!

[Klecko73isGod]

Now I remember why I hate HoF debates. Cause guys like Kleck who hold onto personal sentiments and antiquated measures of success. Point is there are pitchers with less then 300 wins in the HoF. There will be pitchers inducted with less then 300 forever. If that's the case then it should not be a measure of success anymore. It might be an "automatic in" to some, but should not be the reason to exclude someone. Using that in a real debate is a petty way of trying to "win" an argument. It's the only left to stand on HE DOESN'T HAVE 300 HE SHOULD'VE WON MORE GAMES!!!

You've completely missed the point of my argument.

Yes, I do not like Schilling, but there are plenty of players I hate whom I consider Hall of Fame worthy.

Pedro Martinez comes to mind. Pedro actually has fewer victories than Schilling, 214 to 216. But, Pedro's career win percentage is .684, his career ERA is 2.91 and has three Cy Young Awards.

In case you missed when I posted it earlier in the thread, having fewer than 300 wins does not disqualify you. But if you have significantly less than 300 wins like Schilling does, you better have some other eye-popping numbers in your favor like Pedro.

Whitey Ford only won 236 games, but he had the highest win percentage in history, .690 (especially impressive when you consider than for most of his career he was only used against the top competition, which is the main reason he only had one 20 win season,) a career ERA of only 2.75, was a 10 time All Star, and was also a damn good postseason pitcher.

Schilling's 216 wins doesn't disqualify him, but it's not enough by itself when the rest of his resume is lacking.

[Vicious89x]

You've completely missed the point of my argument.

Yes, I do not like Schilling, but there are plenty of players I hate whom I consider Hall of Fame worthy.

Pedro Martinez comes to mind. Pedro actually has fewer victories than Schilling, 214 to 216. But, Pedro's career win percentage is .684, his career ERA is 2.91 and has three Cy Young Awards.

In case you missed when I posted it earlier in the thread, having fewer than 300 wins does not disqualify you. But if you have significantly less than 300 wins like Schilling does, you better have some other eye-popping numbers in your favor like Pedro.

Whitey Ford only won 236 games, but he had the highest win percentage in history, .690 (especially impressive when you consider than for most of his career he was only used against the top competition, which is the main reason he only had one 20 win season,) a career ERA of only 2.75, was a 10 time All Star, and was also a damn good postseason pitcher.

Schilling's 216 wins doesn't disqualify him, but it's not enough by itself when the rest of his resume is lacking.

It's all conjecture. I'm 26, so for me Schilling is a HoF. Sure there are better, but I never wanted to face him. Ever. It's hard for me to remember guys I've never seen pitch, all I have is #'s, so the guy you bring up was done by the time I started paying attention to baseball, and his #'s are incredibly similar to Schillings, and Schilling has been a stud in the post-season. So to each their own, I guess we'll see when the time comes.

[Klecko73isGod]

It's all conjecture. I'm 26, so for me Schilling is a HoF. Sure there are better, but I never wanted to face him. Ever. It's hard for me to remember guys I've never seen pitch, all I have is #'s, so the guy you bring up was done by the time I started paying attention to baseball, and his #'s are incredibly similar to Schillings, and Schilling has been a stud in the post-season. So to each their own, I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Schilling's not a Hall of Famer.

[Vicious89x]

Schilling's not a Hall of Famer.

And when he gets in and if we're still on this board. I'm sure you'll man up and take your medicine.