JMJ Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I never understand this. Is it because he is not flashy? Is it because he is not a big time vocal leader on or off the field? The guy is STOUT against the run and while playing 2 of the past 3 years in a 3-4 defense that had Dewayne Robertson as it's Nose Tackle, and was the least aggressive 3-4 defense in all the NFL blitzing-wise, he has amassed 18 sacks. 18 sacks in the last 3 years is 2nd amongst all 3-4 DEs in the NFL. It is more sacks then Aaron Smith, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears, Igor Olshansky, Luis Castillo, Brett Kiesel, and every other DE in the NFL that suits up and plays for a 3-4 defense. The only 3-4 DE in the NFL with more sacks then Shaun Ellis over the past 3 seasons is Trevor Pryce from Baltimore. Now if Ellis was getting this type of pass rush but was a one-trick pony and played terrible against the run then I could see people saying he was "average at best" or whatever the hell else most our fans say about him. But he is not. Ellis is great against the run and great against the pass. Just felt I had to ask this question since it baffles me to continuously read this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaoulDuke Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I never understand this. Is it because he is not flashy? Is it because he is not a big time vocal leader on or off the field? The guy is STOUT against the run and while playing 2 of the past 3 years in a 3-4 defense that had Dewayne Robertson as it's Nose Tackle, and was the least aggressive 3-4 defense in all the NFL blitzing-wise, he has amassed 18 sacks. 18 sacks in the last 3 years is 2nd amongst all 3-4 DEs in the NFL. It is more sacks then Aaron Smith, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears, Igor Olshansky, Luis Castillo, Brett Kiesel, and every other DE in the NFL that suits up and plays for a 3-4 defense. The only 3-4 DE in the NFL with more sacks then Shaun Ellis over the past 3 seasons is Trevor Pryce from Baltimore. Now if Ellis was getting this type of pass rush but was a one-trick pony and played terrible against the run then I could see people saying he was "average at best" or whatever the hell else most our fans say about him. But he is not. Ellis is great against the run and great against the pass. Just felt I had to ask this question since it baffles me to continuously read this.... Wow. Good stuff JMJ. Excellent points on DRob and lack of blitzing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think he is considered average because, well, he is average. The fact that he plays in a 3-4 and his job is tougher doesn't change things much for me. I will give him a few extra points for the year he lost when Herm wanted to make him a 4-3 tackle. That probably set him back because he approached that offseason differently. I am willing to give in a bit here. I will make a one time offering of slightly above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason423 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think most fans look at Ellis as average(I think he is slightly above) is because he pulls alot of disappearing acts. Ellis has games where he really plays like he is 22 years old and then he has games where he doesnt do much. Im not sure how many of his sacks are overblown. There are games where he really collapses the pocket, but I kind of think that a good portion of his sacks/pressures are of the coverage variety with the team dropping 8 and nobody geting open. Just like everyone else he was terrible down the stretch other than the one play against the Bills. Im not sure he is great against the run. I think he is hard to judge that way because Coleman is awful and teams just run in his direction when they run. Taking salary out of it Coleman is really the guy who needs to be replaced, bu I do think the Jets need someone younger than Ellis on the team to eventually step in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachTsurfing Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think he is above average. He gets the job done and he isn't a liability. It's just that he doesn't dominate a game. He isn't a game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think Jason just hit the nail on the head. There are times where he plays at an All-Pro level and then there are times where he pulls a Bryan Thomas and completely dissapears. I think another reason at least in my eyes is that he never took his game to the next level after John Abraham left. Now say what you want about Abraham being a wuss at times but he was when he was here a feared pass rusher. You never got that with Ellis. To me he is okay. Not great but not awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergen Jet Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 This team has much bigger things to worry about than "Average" MeShaunda. Ellis is a decent run stopper and at times can push the line back and create pressure. I think he would benefit by having a legitimate DE playing opposite of him as Coleman couldn't get to the QB against a college O-Line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 For those saying he disappears often, he plays a position (3-4 DE) where it is pretty much impossible NOT to disappear often. 3-4 DE is simply not a big-play position by nature. You are asked and expected to do mostly dirty work and we should be happy that Ellis indeed does show flashes of brilliance from time to time. I think that should be something we commend and appreciate, not something we try and hold against him. Look at it like this, he's showing a lot more flashes of brilliance and "appearing" a lot more often then all these other 3-4 DEs across the league... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 yeah i agree......shuan ellis is one of the better 3-4 de's in the league. i'd say one of the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 For those saying he disappears often, he plays a position (3-4 DE) where it is pretty much impossible NOT to disappear often. 3-4 DE is simply not a big-play position by nature. You are asked and expected to do mostly dirty work and we should be happy that Ellis indeed does show flashes of brilliance from time to time. I think that should be something we commend and appreciate, not something we try and hold against him. Look at it like this, he's showing a lot more flashes of brilliance and "appearing" a lot more often then all these other 3-4 DEs across the league... Thank you. This notion of judging a 3-4 DE by sacks is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 18 sacks in the last 3 years is 2nd amongst all 3-4 DEs in the NFL. It is more sacks then Aaron Smith, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears, Igor Olshansky, Luis Castillo, Brett Kiesel, and every other DE in the NFL that suits up and plays for a 3-4 defense. The only 3-4 DE in the NFL with more sacks then Shaun Ellis over the past 3 seasons is Trevor Pryce from Baltimore. Thank you. This notion of judging a 3-4 DE by sacks is ridiculous. Ironic? Ellis is good. He is not great. IMO he is not even very good. He's certainly not the type of player I'd be looking to replace, but I wouldn't spend too much time defending him either. You just have to remember that 99% of Jets fans believe that any Jets player is either awesome or horrid. There is no in between with these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 You just have to remember that 99% of Jets fans believe that any Jets player is either awesome or horrid. There is no in between with these people. That's because whenever there's a play they're not in on, that makes them "invisible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudicus Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think it's the same reason why up till this past season everyone thought Brandon Moore was average. It's just a matter of production, unless your an elite level talent who can succeed no matter what, you get bogged down by a bad D or O which I think Ellis has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The secondary hurt the DL a lot. Mangini kept dropping his LB'ers into coverage, leaving 5+ blockers to deal with 3 DL'men way often. Sending LB'ers (and/or DB's) makes a DL'man look better (particularly on a 3-man line) because there's only 1 guy blocking him instead of 2. Ellis isn't all-world, but he's hardly a key "part of the problem" on the Jets' defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ironic? Ellis is good. He is not great. IMO he is not even very good. He's certainly not the type of player I'd be looking to replace, but I wouldn't spend too much time defending him either. You just have to remember that 99% of Jets fans believe that any Jets player is either awesome or horrid. There is no in between with these people. Fair point about Jets fans. If you were to ask non-Jets fans, and I don't mean most of the douchebag trolls who post here, but real people, a lot of them would tell you they think rather highly of Ellis. A guy in my office who is a Jags fan drools over Ellis and wishes he played for the Jags, then again, he is also a Tennessee alum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Fair point about Jets fans. If you were to ask non-Jets fans, and I don't mean most of the douchebag trolls who post here, but real people, a lot of them would tell you they think rather highly of Ellis. A guy in my office who is a Jags fan drools over Ellis and wishes he played for the Jags, then again, he is also a Tennessee alum. Tell him for me that Cedric Houston sucks my balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think it's the same reason why up till this past season everyone thought Brandon Moore was average. It's just a matter of production, unless your an elite level talent who can succeed no matter what, you get bogged down by a bad D or O which I think Ellis has. Brandon Moore average? You must be new here. During the '07 and '08 off-seasons he was a complete piece of garbage that had to be cut and any stiff UDFA off the street would be a major improvement. His extension was cursed. Then when they cut him because he was due an insane $7M bonus he suddenly became one of the top five guards in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Brandon Moore average? You must be new here. During the '07 and '08 off-seasons he was a complete piece of garbage that had to be cut and any stiff UDFA off the street would be a major improvement. His extension was cursed. Then when they cut him because he was due an insane $7M bonus he suddenly became one of the top five guards in the NFL. Good times. And any fans who cursed his extension - excuse me, extensions - were out of their minds. I wasn't his greatest fan before '08. He improved a lot with Woody on his right & Mangold's continued development (which was also aided by Faneca as well). He was dirt-cheap ($2M cap number in both 2007 & 2008) until this season, and if we didn't bring him back this year the dead cap space would have been insignificant (<$400K). A $7M roster bonus that brought his one-year cap number to $8M was way too much for him. If Shaun Ellis was due a $7M roster bonus this year (on top of his salary) & wouldn't offer to let the Jets spread it out a little, I'd say cut him also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Good times. And any fans who cursed his extension - excuse me, extensions - were out of their minds. I wasn't his greatest fan before '08. He improved a lot with Woody on his right & Mangold's continued development (which was also aided by Faneca as well). He was dirt-cheap ($2M cap number in both 2007 & 2008) until this season, and if we didn't bring him back this year the dead cap space would have been insignificant (<$400K). A $7M roster bonus that brought his one-year cap number to $8M was way too much for him. If Shaun Ellis was due a $7M roster bonus this year (on top of his salary) & wouldn't offer to let the Jets spread it out a little, I'd say cut him also. Me too, but when I said they would cut Moore in December I was repeatedly told I was crazy. He's irreplaceable!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Tell him for me that Cedric Houston sucks my balls. Don't let JiF hear you say that, CedHou was his boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Me too, but when I said they would cut Moore in December I was repeatedly told I was crazy. He's irreplaceable!!! And I'm sure a lot of the people telling you he was irreplaceable would have told you how much he sucked a year earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think he is considered average because, well, he is average. The fact that he plays in a 3-4 and his job is tougher doesn't change things much for me. I will give him a few extra points for the year he lost when Herm wanted to make him a 4-3 tackle. That probably set him back because he approached that offseason differently. I am willing to give in a bit here. I will make a one time offering of slightly above average. what he said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 And I'm sure a lot of the people telling you he was irreplaceable would have told you how much he sucked a year earlier. Would be nice if we had a free search feature here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Would be nice if we had a free search feature here. didn't you send Max your 2009 $55 check yet SE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The problem with Ellis is that Coleman is worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 He is average because do you see him making big impact in Jet games- if you do let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The problem with Ellis is that Coleman is worse. it could be a case of that Bart...like it was with Moore and Clement next to him or anybody with DRob next to him. I'd like to see Coleman's PT reduced substantially this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 didn't you send Max your 2009 $55 check yet SE? He told me he had to mortgage his house on New York Ave to cover the mods' last paychecks: He still has hotels on Baltic & Mediterranean, for whatever that's worth. He was trying to sell me time shares there a year & a half ago. "Best investment I can make," he tells me. What a crock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think most fans look at Ellis as average(I think he is slightly above) is because he pulls alot of disappearing acts. Ellis has games where he really plays like he is 22 years old and then he has games where he doesnt do much. Im not sure how many of his sacks are overblown. There are games where he really collapses the pocket, but I kind of think that a good portion of his sacks/pressures are of the coverage variety with the team dropping 8 and nobody geting open. Just like everyone else he was terrible down the stretch other than the one play against the Bills. Im not sure he is great against the run. I think he is hard to judge that way because Coleman is awful and teams just run in his direction when they run. Taking salary out of it Coleman is really the guy who needs to be replaced, bu I do think the Jets need someone younger than Ellis on the team to eventually step in. He is a step slow against the run and he constantly gets pushed back by Olinemen. Sorry, but Ellis is an average 3-4 DE.. nothing special and not worth the money probably. He also vanishes for long stretches. On the other side, Kenyon Coleman is worse so Ellis is preferable. We need to replace Coleman first and keep Ellis another year or 2 but it is absolutely delusional to believe that Ellis is a great DE. He is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 And I'm sure a lot of the people telling you he was irreplaceable would have told you how much he sucked a year earlier. Would be nice if we had a free search feature here. I was happy with a simple "I told you so" post. I didn't fired up enough to start using the search feature. Those kind of posts probably end up taking years off my life. I will go on record as saying I don't think Coleman is that bad either. Ellis is superior, but Coleman served his purpose. Compared to KVO Coleman is Bubba Smith, Reggie White and Joe Klecko all rolled into one. I'm not so sure that Coleman will be as useful for Rex Ryan's attacking style. That remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Inconsistency. Nothing will kill a player's grade more, especially when one has been in the league as long as Ellis has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemehl Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It is more sacks then Aaron Smith, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears, Igor Olshansky, Luis Castillo, Brett Kiesel, and every other DE in the NFL that suits up and plays for a 3-4 defense. The only 3-4 DE in the NFL with more sacks then Shaun Ellis over the past 3 seasons is Trevor Pryce from Baltimore. That's not exactly a star-studded list, but that's because the 3-4 DE isn't a glory position, like the 4-3 DE that get 18 in one season. That is pretty impressive, in 3-4 land though. I agree, Ellis is solid.I think "solid" is slightly above "average". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aten Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ellis and Coleman are average at best primarily because you never get a full season out of either of them. Ellis is certainly a good player but he's always racking up these little injuries that sap his effectiveness. He plays hurt, mostly due to the fact that we never have any depth, but not well. Coleman just doesn't have the endurance. He started really well in 2007 and then vanished down the stretch. I had hoped at the time that it was due to his not having played a full season before, but then this year he faded even faster. Fortunately for us this is a real easy fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ellis and Coleman are average at best primarily because you never get a full season out of either of them. Ellis is certainly a good player but he's always racking up these little injuries that sap his effectiveness. He plays hurt, mostly due to the fact that we never have any depth, but not well. Coleman just doesn't have the endurance. He started really well in 2007 and then vanished down the stretch. I had hoped at the time that it was due to his not having played a full season before, but then this year he faded even faster. Fortunately for us this is a real easy fix. easy fix how Aten? Oh I see it now on edit; Marques Douglas http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=2120 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemehl Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 it could be a case of that Bart...like it was with Moore and Clement next to him or anybody with DRob next to him. I'd like to see Coleman's PT reduced substantially this year As long as I NEVER see Pouha on the field, I'm cool. If that dude's in, count on at least an eight yard gain. I'd love to see the average yards per play against Pouha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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